Author Topic: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"  (Read 1080 times)

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Offline Chas.

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Well..while the 45LC is a very nice cartridge..It's still classified as a pistol cartridge..


This was posted in the parent thread, and rather than hijack that thread, I thought I'd ask the question in a new thread.  Who gets the privilege of classifying a cartridge as pistol or rifle?  

Is it the originator?  Who would that be in the case of very old calibers?

Is it the reload supplier?  Which one?

The fact seems to me to be that some cartridges are in a gray area and are equally used in both handguns and rifles.  The 45LC being the subject in the parent thread is one of those and saying unequivocally that it is not a rifle cartridge is folly.

Just me stirring up trouble.

Offline petemi

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2009, 02:40:00 PM »
I've gotta agree.  .357s, .44s, 45s, all classified as pistol calibers.....why do so many rifles spit them out?  If ya shop for ammo, ya gotta look under handgun ammo.

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Offline gendoc

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2009, 02:41:32 PM »
good point....
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

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Offline gendoc

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2009, 02:46:13 PM »
chas,   as your original post title states... 45 colt rifle loads....
thats a lot different load than a handgun.
sea-ya.....
in tha meen time, i'm wait'n for tha  7th trumpet ta sound !!!

gotta big green tractor ana diesel truck, my idea of heaven's chasin whitetail bucks and asa country boy, you know i can survive............

hey boy, hit this mason jar one time...
burn ya lil'bit did'nt it. ya ever been snipe hunt'n ?  come on...

I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery.

Offline petemi

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2009, 02:50:31 PM »
Perhaps, someday, the ammo manufacturers will load "Pistol Caliber" ammo for the 16 to 24 inch rifle barrel and mark it "Rifle Ammo" and still produce the handgun ammo marked as such.

Pete
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
The growing Handi/Sportster/Pardner/Topper Family:  .22 WMR, .22-250. 223, Two Superlight 7mm-08s and one .243, .30-30,  .308, 32-20, 18 inch .356/.358 Win., Two 16.5 inch .357 Max., 18 inch 38-55 BC Carbine, 16.5 inch .445 Super Mag., .45LC, 16.5 and 22 inch .45-70s, .50 Huntsman SS, .410, 20 ga., 12 ga., 20 ga. Pardner Pump, Versa-Pack .410 - .22
[size=7.4 pt]PLEASE DONATE TO THE GBO SERVER FUND  We're closer to the goal but not there yet, we can still use more donations, thanks

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Offline Chas.

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 03:15:35 PM »
To reply to my own thread, pistol (handgun) cartridges are usually straight wall, use a relatively fast burning powder, usually slower in velocity, and shoot a larger/fatter bullet.  I think I just described the 45-70. ;D

Offline Mac11700

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Offline Lazermule

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2009, 04:06:55 PM »
To reply to my own thread, pistol (handgun) cartridges are usually straight wall, use a relatively fast burning powder, usually slower in velocity, and shoot a larger/fatter bullet.  I think I just described the 45-70. ;D

Don't forget the Magnum Research BFR, the 45/70 revolver.... :o

LM
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Offline TxGun

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2009, 04:14:31 PM »
Some calibers were introduced in pistols, some in rifles, and some...in the case of the old 44-40 or 32-20 just as examples...pretty much simultaneously in both. Vehicle of introduction and most common usage by the public more or less determines whether calibers are thought of as primarily "pistol" or "rifle" calibers today. No great mystery.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2009, 06:08:59 PM »
Some calibers were introduced in pistols, some in rifles, and some...in the case of the old 44-40 or 32-20 just as examples...pretty much simultaneously in both. Vehicle of introduction and most common usage by the public more or less determines whether calibers are thought of as primarily "pistol" or "rifle" calibers today. No great mystery.

Yup..if it was developed as a pistol cartridge..that is what it is..same for a rifle cartridge if developed for a rifle..even though most pistol cartridges can be fired out of a rifle of the same..the opposite isn't always true due to various reason like pressure and bullet type/lenght..There really isn't any gray area when it comes to this..just common sense on some of their usuage..Way too many crazy folks around who would and have let safety take a back seat..

Mac
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Offline Spanky

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2009, 04:24:22 AM »
Just me stirring up trouble.


Yup. :-\



Spanky

Offline guns-o-fun

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2009, 01:35:08 PM »
OK, let me play something a little close to a bad boy here.  If you look at the 500 Smith or the 460 Smith - those are pretty good sized pistol cases.  If you are shooting them through a rifle barrel that is at least twice as long as the common long pistol barrels, and they really are designed for pressures approaching 60 Kpsi, why is there no loading data for say some of the faster rifle powders to take advantage of the longer barrels?  How's that for a runon sentence?

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2009, 04:18:19 PM »
OK, let me play something a little close to a bad boy here.  If you look at the 500 Smith or the 460 Smith - those are pretty good sized pistol cases.  If you are shooting them through a rifle barrel that is at least twice as long as the common long pistol barrels, and they really are designed for pressures approaching 60 Kpsi, why is there no loading data for say some of the faster rifle powders to take advantage of the longer barrels?  How's that for a runon sentence?

Have you looked at the Hogdons web site..for these 2 cartridges?

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Mac
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2009, 04:28:03 PM »
you  cannot  buy  a 45lc  cartridge  if  you are under  21   federal  law

22 is the  only  pistol/dual  use  cartridge  you can  buy  between  18  and 21

the  seller is suppose to ask  you if it is for a rifle or pistol if  he beleives  you to be  under 21


BUT   45LC  OR  30-30    WHAT  HAS MORE  POWER  [FROM  SAME RIFLE BARREL  LENGTH]

hot  loaded  45   out  to  approx  50  yards
factory  30-30  has  more  power.....................just speculating  tho
[same  for  the  44 mag  has  edge  out to  50  yds]......this is  supported  by  rumors
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Offline guns-o-fun

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2009, 04:33:23 PM »
Mac,    Yes, I have downloaded the 500 S&W and used some of the loads.  The only "rifle" powder I see is 4227, which can do double duty.  It's mostly Lil Gun, H110, TiteGroup, etc...could we reach down as far as N130, or dare I say it, H4198 - or am I just out of my mind here?

Offline Sweetwater

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2009, 05:39:15 PM »
I'll interject a touch of theory and a bit of truth on part of this.

I'll label this "a touch of theory": IF I wanted to use a fast rifle powder to take advantage of the longer barrel, I would do it "after" a lot of reading and ciphering. You see, there is nothing new under the sun. It has all been done. Simply a matter of research to find who-dun-it and what their results were. I have not done it specifically with the 45Colt, but I have done it with other rifles for which there was no data in the mainstream manuals for the powder or bullet weight that I wanted to use. Error on the side of caution and work up. Some powders are very forgiving when loaded light, and others are not. Reading will help locate a similar round, similar case capacity, maybe the same or different expansion ratio - have to be careful there. Part of the joy of handloading is such as this.

I'll offer this for "a bit of truth": Some loading manuals are placing a seperate data set for some pistol cartridges to be used in rifles. Usually there is a disclaimer to "not use in revolvers due to higher pressure" or some such verbage. So, from the pages of my handloading journal; Let's take a load from the "revolver data" that was worked up properly in a particular revolver to pretty near the max for a certain mainstream loading manual. This load works as a 200meter ram load on a IHMSA shooting range for several years. All is well. Some time later, a rifle is purchased in the same caliber. Several boxes of light to medium loads are fired and the rifle is dialed in and shooting is fun. As a matter of decision, a box of the 200meter ram load is matched to the rifle for a day at the range, prepping for some possible hunting. The first round ends the day with a case head seperation, and a trip to the gunsmith. After removing the "rest of the case", the 'smith asks about the ammo used. I showed it to him. We pulled a bullet and verified the load and cross-checked with his manual. All is well. Inspection of the brass shows no signs of weakening in the brass, but, just in case, some new brass is sized, trimmed and loaded with the same powder charge and bullet. We both go to the range. Again, the first round gives a case head seperation. We concur that the revolver data, which is good in the revolver with it's cylinder gap, is actually too high for the rifle with it's closed chamber and long barrel. The powder was in the middle of a can of W296 and had showed no signs of being erratic before or after. Mag primers were always used and loads were kept near the top of those listed, per Winchester's instructions. I've always had to load this rifle below "book max" in the "revolver section" of the book to keep the cases from seperating in the chamber. The rifle chamber is proper spec and smooth, and the barrel measures correctly. I've adopted the policy of loading the middle ground of the "revolver section" for my rifle and working up from there, and basically leaving the "rifle section" unused, except where other powders may have been used "to take advantage of the longer barrel". Then I start at the suggested starting charge and work cautiously. I've not had another case head seperation with this rifle. Noted the later manuals show either the same loads or lighter loads for the rifle as compared to the revolver, so I guess a few light bulbs came on.

Regards,
Sweetwater
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2009, 04:33:26 AM »
Mac,    Yes, I have downloaded the 500 S&W and used some of the loads.  The only "rifle" powder I see is 4227, which can do double duty.  It's mostly Lil Gun, H110, TiteGroup, etc...could we reach down as far as N130, or dare I say it, H4198 - or am I just out of my mind here?

No..your not out of your mind..but..in your pot stirring..your forgetting that manufacturers are and have developed powders that work in more than 1 application..and that there are more things that have to be considered before they will publish any loading data that fits your criteria...There are many different loads available that you can try from various load sites if you choose to trust the data..or..you can strike out on your own and do your own experiments..One thing to remember..many pistol cartridges are designed much larger than necessary to achieve pressure-limit perforance with smokeless propellent..and most "magnum" type pistol cartridges rely on a firm crimp to help achieve this..It's not a matter of figuring the case capacity and dumping in a much slower rifle powder for a longer barrel..It don't work that way..Lots of testing has to be done over a wide range of guns to make sure it will work in them..before data is released..

Mac
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Offline guns-o-fun

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2009, 06:27:21 AM »
Thanks, Mac.  I didn't really think it was all that simple.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2009, 06:55:02 AM »
Thanks, Mac.  I didn't really think it was all that simple.

No problem...and I had a funny feeling you didn't think it...but sometimes you never know ;)

Mac
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Offline kevinsmith5

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2009, 03:27:45 PM »
Just to clear something up here, the 45-70 is a tapered cartridge, not straight walled.
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Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 03:53:57 PM »
45LC didn't become a popular rifle cartridge until the advent of cowboy action shooting.  I like the 45LC in both types of guns, and hope to acquire a bc in that caliber, but it is what it is.  Regardless of its potential as a rifle round, it's a pistol round sometimes fired in rifles.

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2009, 04:02:26 PM »
Re. a 45/70 round, being tapered, I was surprised when I measured a factory Remington round. It'a .480 at the top, and .498 at the top, according to my Hornady caliper. Who'd  a' thunk it?

Offline Mike in Virginia

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Re: Thread spawn-from "45 Colt rifle loads more power than 30-30 downrange?"
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2009, 04:03:04 PM »
I mean .498 at the BOTTOM.