Why the Afghan Strategy won't work...

[billy_56081]

Geez Cabin can you point out where in your version of the Constitution its says we have to lay down and surrender to an aggressor against America? Or is that only in California"s version of the constituton? Wake up dude, the muslims are out to either kill you or subjegate you.

[Cabin4]

Geez Cabin can you point out where in your version of the Constitution its says we have to lay down and surrender to an aggressor against America? Or is that only in California"s version of the constituton? Wake up dude, the muslims are out to either kill you or subjegate you.

Show me where it says we must march troops into foreign countries, expel combatants, their current government and install a democracy? SHow me where it says we are the global police? Show me where it says we are suppose to give unconditional support for a foriegn entity? Show me where it says we are suppose to use tax dollars to fund methods that attempt to reshape/influence foriegn governments domestic policies?

No one is suggesting we lay down and surrender. We should focus our attention on protecting our borders, putting real immigration controls in place and STOP our horrific foriegn policy thats creating these terrorists and plants the seeds of our global hate.

[billy_56081]

Yeah Cabin, lets just lock our door while the muslims develope nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. If we all hold hands and think positive thoughts we will have good kharma and they won't attack us. 

That must be what California is doing about the illegal aliens.

Gurgle Gurgle Cough Cough! 

[Cabin4]

I see the connection now Billy. All those nuclear, biological and chemical weapons we found in Iraq and Afganistan The only non standard weapons they had in Iraq were chemical and they were used long before we got there. And BTW Billy, they were the chemical weapons our government gave them!!!!!

Do you have any more good examples for us?

[myronman3]

Show me where it says we must march troops into foreign countries, expel combatants, their current government and install a democracy? SHow me where it says we are the global police? Show me where it says we are suppose to give unconditional support for a foriegn entity? Show me where it says we are suppose to use tax dollars to fund methods that attempt to reshape/influence foriegn governments domestic policies?

  holy smokes...we see eye to eye on something. 

No one is suggesting we lay down and surrender. We should focus our attention on protecting our borders, putting real immigration controls in place

and still on a roll...

and STOP our horrific foriegn policy thats creating these terrorists and plants the seeds of our global hate.

and here is where i think you are off track.   while i will concede that MAYBE some of the foreign policies MAY have contributed to their dislike and hatred of us; these people are NOT peaceloving, and do NOT want to co-exist in peace with us. 

[rio grande]

Billy's world is a world of peace. The peace of the graveyard.
First you kill a billion Muslims, kids, women, old people - just wipe 'em out. Then he'll sleep better. That should take care of Iran, along with Yemen and Singapore and lots iof other places with funny names like Turkey and Azerbaijad and Albania - oh, wait - Albania's our friends!  Well, they's Muslims - too bad.   What would Conan do?  Just kill 'em, he would.
Course you gotta keep a few of the women to 'breed' - the good-looking ones!  
Venezuela, we better invade - Equador too. we'll make 'em Democracies, by God.  If any of them raise a hand, well, that will be the last thing they do - right, Billy? Cuba, too.
Then there's them Chinamen - they got nuclear bombs - better get 'em before they get us!
Russians, too - they might attack us. We got a big surprise for them!
Billy is sleeping real good now....except there's them 'liberals'. Got some right next door.
You know, folks that don't agree with Billy.  What the heck, what's a few more dead folks?

[rio grande]

".....Far more atrocious news broke the same day, December 30, when, according to the next day’s edition of The Times of London, “American-led troops were accused…of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead” in Kunar province near the Pakistani border.

U.S.-installed and -supported President Hamid Karzai dispatched an investigative team headed by former governor of Helmand province Assadullah Wafa to the scene of the massacre, dubbed by at least one news source as an Afghan My Lai.

A statement was later issued on the official website of the Afghan president that said in part: “The delegation concluded that a unit of international forces descended from a plane Sunday night into Ghazi Khan village in Narang district of the eastern province of Kunar and took ten people from three homes, eight of them school students in grades six, nine and ten, one of them a guest, the rest from the same family, and shot them dead.”

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/rozoff5.1.1.html


Think this nevers happens? 

[Cabin4]

Show me where it says we must march troops into foreign countries, expel combatants, their current government and install a democracy? SHow me where it says we are the global police? Show me where it says we are suppose to give unconditional support for a foriegn entity? Show me where it says we are suppose to use tax dollars to fund methods that attempt to reshape/influence foriegn governments domestic policies?

  holy smokes...we see eye to eye on something. 

No one is suggesting we lay down and surrender. We should focus our attention on protecting our borders, putting real immigration controls in place

and still on a roll...

and STOP our horrific foriegn policy thats creating these terrorists and plants the seeds of our global hate.

and here is where i think you are off track.   while i will concede that MAYBE some of the foreign policies MAY have contributed to their dislike and hatred of us; these people are NOT peaceloving, and do NOT want to co-exist in peace with us. 

I'm not so interested in peace with these people as I'm interested in having nothing to do with them. Co-exsist implies living side by side. We live in the USA and they live in the ME. Close enough so maybe we can call it co-exsisting on the same planet. Thats it.

[ironglow]

".....Far more atrocious news broke the same day, December 30, when, according to the next day’s edition of The Times of London, “American-led troops were accused…of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead” in Kunar province near the Pakistani border.

U.S.-installed and -supported President Hamid Karzai dispatched an investigative team headed by former governor of Helmand province Assadullah Wafa to the scene of the massacre, dubbed by at least one news source as an Afghan My Lai.

A statement was later issued on the official website of the Afghan president that said in part: “The delegation concluded that a unit of international forces descended from a plane Sunday night into Ghazi Khan village in Narang district of the eastern province of Kunar and took ten people from three homes, eight of them school students in grades six, nine and ten, one of them a guest, the rest from the same family, and shot them dead.”

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/rozoff5.1.1.html


Think this nevers happens? 

  RIO;
   You can read all that Lew Rockwell propaganda crap you want to..just because you swallow it , doesn't mean it's true ! Especially in a broken country it is very easy to "accuse"..shucks, accusations are being flung around here all the time..doesn't mean they are true !

   How many currently serving combat troops do you personally know as a friend or relative ? How many of them are likely to murder children ?
  I personally know or am related to quite a few..and there is not one who would do such a thing !
    Perhaps it is time you quit taking the "word" of terrorists and their partisans before you start making  accusations our brave troops..who are keeping your a_ _   free....free enough to regurgitate this enemy slander !!!
 

[myronman3]

cabin-  the problem is that the world isnt that big anymore.  with modern travel, you can be in several countries and cross oceans in just one day.   other than that, i think we are kindof on the same page.  if we could just leave them over there, i would be all for it.  i dont believe that is possible. 

   now regarding the slaughter of children as posted above about a night time raid.    did it happen or didnt it happen?   no one here knows and never will.   but what i do know is that in countries like this, they love to give kids guns and bombs, and a kid pulling the trigger will kill you every bit as fast as a full grown man.  now once that kid is dead, you take the gun and other weapons from the body, return the body to the parents, get a cameracrew in there to record the grief, and viola! instant proganda. 
      this happened to my dad in vietnam, a kid was given a grenade and told to run over by the gi's and give it to them.  this kid was about 4 and had no idea what the hell was going on.  dad had to shoot that kid, and it haunts him to this day; even though he knows he would have been dead if he didnt. 
   we have the best troops in the world, and i give them the benefit of a doubt everytime.   unless you are there, seeing what they see, living what they live, you can not understand the situation.   and if you send a person into an enviroment like that, the LEAST you can do is believe them before you believe OUR enemies.   
   the marine that shot the wounded guerilla in iraq that made the national news years back....he did the absolute right thing.  i would have done the exact same thing.   these are our soldiers sent to fight and kill for us; not to play patty-cake with our enemies.   there should not be camera crews with them trying to play "gotcha".   the last thing they should have to worry about it coming home and being prosecuted for doing what we sent them there to do. 

[alsaqr]

The Karzai scumbag seldom leaves the capitol:  Afghans derisively call Karzai "the lord mayor of Kabul."    Karzai is quick to blame all the alleged atrocities that happen in his sorry country on foreign troops.  Can anyone tell me why Karzai and his sorry bunch of lackeys never say a word when the Taliban and/or al Queda blow up a school and kill dozens of kids?  Answer:  Karzai is an instrument of the Islamic crazies.

BTW:  Afghanistan is an Islamic republic with sharia law.  Sharia law was re-installed in 2004. 

[rio grande]

".....Far more atrocious news broke the same day, December 30, when, according to the next day’s edition of The Times of London, “American-led troops were accused…of dragging innocent children from their beds and shooting them during a night raid that left ten people dead” in Kunar province near the Pakistani border.

U.S.-installed and -supported President Hamid Karzai dispatched an investigative team headed by former governor of Helmand province Assadullah Wafa to the scene of the massacre, dubbed by at least one news source as an Afghan My Lai.

A statement was later issued on the official website of the Afghan president that said in part: “The delegation concluded that a unit of international forces descended from a plane Sunday night into Ghazi Khan village in Narang district of the eastern province of Kunar and took ten people from three homes, eight of them school students in grades six, nine and ten, one of them a guest, the rest from the same family, and shot them dead.”

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig10/rozoff5.1.1.html


Think this nevers happens?  

  RIO;
   You can read all that Lew Rockwell propaganda crap you want to..just because you swallow it , doesn't mean it's true ! Especially in a broken country it is very easy to "accuse"..shucks, accusations are being flung around here all the time..doesn't mean they are true !

   How many currently serving combat troops do you personally know as a friend or relative ? How many of them are likely to murder children ?
  I personally know or am related to quite a few..and there is not one who would do such a thing !
    Perhaps it is time you quit taking the "word" of terrorists and their partisans before you start making  accusations our brave troops..who are keeping your a_ _   free....free enough to regurgitate this enemy slander !!!
  

Certainly true it's a 'broken country'.  And I don't accept or deny this report, let us wait and see.
But I've no doubt similar actions have occurred, and will continue. 'War is Hell', as General Sherman said, and he should know!
I know the majority of American soldiers are good and moral, and would never do such a thing, but I also know, especially after reading some of the posts here, that there are Americans who WOULD  commit this kind of atrocity, and worse.  And you know it, too.
Remember Lt. Calley, in Vietnam?
Who knows what WE might do if forced to serve one tour after another in a hell-hole like that?
We should get our troops out of Afghanistan, Iraq, and everywhere else we have no business being.  Take care of our own country.  'Avoid foreign entanglements', as George Washington said.
 

[ironglow]

The Karzai scumbag seldom leaves the capitol:  Afghans derisively call Karzai "the lord mayor of Kabul."    Karzai is quick to blame all the alleged atrocities that happen in his sorry country on foreign troops.  Can anyone tell me why Karzai and his sorry bunch of lackeys never say a word when the Taliban and/or al Queda blow up a school and kill dozens of kids?  Answer:  Karzai is an instrument of the Islamic crazies.

BTW:  Afghanistan is an Islamic republic with sharia law.  Sharia law was re-installed in 2004.  

.
Why would the Taliban/al ciaduh blow up and shoot little kids in the head...even in their madness what would be the rationale..?  Are their sunni-shite rivalries in Afghanistan..don't think so. Mobster mentality..maybe.  Dosen't make sense that they would a] do things that cause the population to run to the arms of the foreign protectors, and b] delete from their recruit base.  Seems this crap has more value for influencing the homeboys back here in the states. Just wondering...?
   


..TM7

TM;
  Why would they beat women for letting their ankle show, or shoot girls for going to school, why would they take women into a soccer stadium and shoot them in the head (through their birkas) ? Why wouild they run men through wood chippers..slowly..feet first ? Why would they cut men's tongues out or tie them up and toss them of 3 story buildings ?
    .. Don't ask us why..ask the crazies who are doing it  !

[alsaqr]

Why would they beat women for letting their ankle show, or shoot girls for going to school, why would they take women into a soccer stadium and shoot them in the head (through their birkas) ? Why wouild they run men through wood chippers..slowly..feet first ? Why would they cut men's tongues out or tie them up and toss them of 3 story buildings ?

+1

IronGlow, you are exactly right on with that one.  They did that stuff because they are an illiterate and
lobotomized bunch of violent scumbags.  We never hear about the Taliban blowing up schools, taking hostages for ransom and blowing up peaceful Afghan citizens.  Every time there is an atrocity in Afghanistan that scumbag Karzai blames it on US troops and our military hating far left media sops it up.

The Taliban was an invention of our wonderful Islamic friends in Saudi Arabia.  The Saudis wanted to turn Afghanistan into an an Islamic paradise.  They did that by sending their lobotomized idiotic preachers to Afghanistan.  They are doing the same thing in Somalia as we speak. 

[billy_56081]

Why would they beat women for letting their ankle show, or shoot girls for going to school, why would they take women into a soccer stadium and shoot them in the head (through their birkas) ? Why wouild they run men through wood chippers..slowly..feet first ? Why would they cut men's tongues out or tie them up and toss them of 3 story buildings ?

+1

IronGlow, you are exactly right on with that one.  They did that stuff because they are an illiterate and
lobotomized bunch of violent scumbags.  We never hear about the Taliban blowing up schools, taking hostages for ransom and blowing up peaceful Afghan citizens.  Every time there is an atrocity in Afghanistan that scumbag Karzai blames it on US troops and our military hating far left media sops it up.

The Taliban was an invention of our wonderful Islamic friends in Saudi Arabia.  The Saudis wanted to turn Afghanistan into an an Islamic paradise.  They did that by sending their lobotomized idiotic preachers to Afghanistan.  They are doing the same thing in Somalia as we speak. 

The cancer spreads, there is only one way to stop it.

[Cabin4]

Why would they beat women for letting their ankle show, or shoot girls for going to school, why would they take women into a soccer stadium and shoot them in the head (through their birkas) ? Why wouild they run men through wood chippers..slowly..feet first ? Why would they cut men's tongues out or tie them up and toss them of 3 story buildings ?

+1

IronGlow, you are exactly right on with that one.  They did that stuff because they are an illiterate and
lobotomized bunch of violent scumbags.  We never hear about the Taliban blowing up schools, taking hostages for ransom and blowing up peaceful Afghan citizens.  Every time there is an atrocity in Afghanistan that scumbag Karzai blames it on US troops and our military hating far left media sops it up.

The Taliban was an invention of our wonderful Islamic friends in Saudi Arabia.  The Saudis wanted to turn Afghanistan into an an Islamic paradise.  They did that by sending their lobotomized idiotic preachers to Afghanistan.  They are doing the same thing in Somalia as we speak.  

The cancer spreads, there is only one way to stop it.

Yes, because our constitution demands that if we find a group of people that won't lets their women’s ankles show, we need to send in our troops. Let's bomb those people and their cities, reinstall a new government in the name of women’s free ankle showing. We’ll send billions of our tax dollars to rebuild their nation in the process because we have nothing else better to do with it at home. And while we demand women’s free ankle showing, we will kill a few hundred thousand of those women in collateral. But in the end, women will be able to show their ankles and the children of the slaughtered masses we left behind will hopefully learn to love us and our founding fathers will be proud.

This, is the calling of our nation and worthy of the blood of our sons.

[billy_56081]

Islam is calling for the blood of all sons and daughters. Cabin what you are too naieve to comprehendis, if we don't go eradicate this cancer where it resides now. It will overtake us. DUHH!!!!!! DUHH!!!!!!!!!!! DUHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Keep the blanket pulled over your head. Nothing can harm you under there.    Ron White is 100% correct.

[Cabin4]

I rather fight Al Queda on my front lawn then continue to pretend we can "sanitise" the planet.

I'm pulling the blanket back over my head now.....

[rio grande]

Isn't it odd that the mujahedeen used to be our "friends" and we supported them with money and weapons when they were busy killing Russians? 
And we supported (and still do) the murderous, drug-running Albanian Muslims, to the point of bombing their Christian enemies in Belgrade on an Easter Sunday?

Now it's all about 'stopping the Muslim menace".
People who unthinkingly support our government are being played for fools.
They are probably the same people who watch Saturday morning TV, then feel compelled to go out and buy Captain Crunch cereal.

[ironglow]

  Cabin 4 and Rio Grande have apparently fallen in league with the "hate America first" crowd..sounding much like those who riot in the streets and blame the USA for every ill in the world.
  So they claim it is our "foreign policy" that causes the Islamic terrorists to have a valid reason to attack us..huh ?

1) 12/31/09 Yala, Thailand..2 people shot off their motorbikes by Muslim terrorists
2) 12/30/09 Pattain, Thailand..2 people guarding teachers (?) blown to bits by Muslim terrorists
3) 12/18/09 Pulwami, India..2 dragged from their home and , murdered         "      "         "
4) 11/26/09 Makhachkala, Dagestan...police officer murdered  on train           "      "         "
5) 11/27/09 Balocoye, Russia...26 passengers klled on bomb-derailed train     "      "         "
7) 12/17/09 2 year old girl murdered with her father, by "holy warriors", sent  "      "         "
6) 10/12/02 Kuta, Bali..202 killed in club bombing and fire. crime perpetrated  "      "         "
7) Jolo, Philippines..Abu Sayyaf terrorists cut off head of Christian school principal.....then leave it in a paper bag, at a gas station.

         Perhaps you two can explain to us the terrible foreign policy of Thialand, India, Degestan, Russia, Bali and the Philippines..
  which justified the ugly murders perpetrated in each of those countries ..plus dozens of other nations.
   You are welcome to  keep trying to justify such butchery, but few civilized others will.

  

[Cabin4]

IG,

Since when is it America's responsibility to do anything about the list of events you provided? Please explain to all of us, why Americans must be dispatched to all corners of the earth to die and protect everyone from the terrorists attacks you listed? In addition, please provide us a quote(s) from our constitution that substantiates this type of global action.

I don't hate America first IG, I just hate your ideas and the policies that result from people like you that think it’s our role to rid the planet of all unacceptable actions. The US is not the rulers of the world and as much as folks like you, the politicians is Washington and the UN would like to think so, your wrong.

These two parties full of corrupt criminal leftists and neo-cons are screwing this country over six ways from Sunday and they have brain washed the masses to think some of the most rediculous concepts. The fact that you would even mention this laundry list of terror acts as a menas to substansiate our illegal foriegn policy is proof, that way to many people have no idea what it means to love this country. You don't love America IG, you just love forcing your life standards and the false premise of Washington DC and UN standards down the throats of people around the globe. My loyalty is not to your ideas, the UN or the ideas that ooze out of the Washington swamp. My loyalty is with our constitution and those that respect and propagate its core ideals.

[ironglow]

Cabin;
 You're evading my question...
  You have been saying it is the United States' "foreign policy" which causes these crazies to attack us. So, by using a few of the thousands of unprovoked (by sane standards) terrorist attacks upon other nations, I AGAIN askthe following question:

   What are the hostile "foreign policy" actions done by Thailand, India, Dagestan, Russia, The Philippines and Bali, which justify such terrorist attacks ?

  Just answer the question, please..

[Questor]

Wouldn't it help to have a strategy first before deciding whether it will work? 

[Cabin4]

Cabin;
 You're evading my question...
  You have been saying it is the United States' "foreign policy" which causes these crazies to attack us. So, by using a few of the thousands of unprovoked (by sane standards) terrorist attacks upon other nations, I AGAIN askthe following question:

   What are the hostile "foreign policy" actions done by Thailand, India, Dagestan, Russia, The Philippines and Bali, which justify such terrorist attacks ?

  Just answer the question, please..

I'm not evading your question IG. I just simply don't give a S&*# what actions those countries took that provoked internal terror. I only care about our actions that provoke hatred and terror towards us. The mouslims countries are in the midst of a fundimental religious fight. Let them fight each other to death for all I care. I could care less if they slaughter each other all day long. It has nothing to do with us and we have no place in taking action or alliance that brings us into the center of these fights. It will only make us someone's enemy.

[ironglow]

Ummmm...Basically, you just want to condemn the United States, right ? I have been searching your posts of the last few weeks, trying to find where you may have even inadvertantly,.... said something good about the USA.
     Why do you suffer so much to hang around here ?..

[billy_56081]

IG Cabin is a Californian, I think he can be safely called part of the California blame America first crowd. He cannot in his peace/love Haite Ashbury mindset that some people (muslims) are inherently evil. In this mindset, someone can only think, that it is somehow our own fault. That we caused this to happen to us. Kind of like blaming a rape victim for being raped.

America is the shining beacon of hope in the world, and the forces that seek to cast darkness on the world are trying to extinguish the beacon. Cabin weakly uses the Constittution as his argument, but I have yet to see him point out where in the Constitution it says AMerica must surrender to an aggressor. Maybe that is an article in the limp wristed Cali Constitution, but it is not in Americas.

[rio grande]

 Cabin 4 and Rio Grande have apparently fallen in league with the "hate America first" crowd..sounding much like those who riot in the streets and blame the USA for every ill in the world.
  So they claim it is our "foreign policy" that causes the Islamic terrorists to have a valid reason to attack us..huh ?

1) 12/31/09 Yala, Thailand..2 people shot off their motorbikes by Muslim terrorists
2) 12/30/09 Pattain, Thailand..2 people guarding teachers (?) blown to bits by Muslim terrorists
3) 12/18/09 Pulwami, India..2 dragged from their home and , murdered         "      "         "
4) 11/26/09 Makhachkala, Dagestan...police officer murdered  on train           "      "         "
5) 11/27/09 Balocoye, Russia...26 passengers klled on bomb-derailed train     "      "         "
7) 12/17/09 2 year old girl murdered with her father, by "holy warriors", sent  "      "         "
6) 10/12/02 Kuta, Bali..202 killed in club bombing and fire. crime perpetrated  "      "         "
7) Jolo, Philippines..Abu Sayyaf terrorists cut off head of Christian school principal.....then leave it in a paper bag, at a gas station.

         Perhaps you two can explain to us the terrible foreign policy of Thialand, India, Degestan, Russia, Bali and the Philippines..
  which justified the ugly murders perpetrated in each of those countries ..plus dozens of other nations.
   You are welcome to  keep trying to justify such butchery, but few civilized others will.

  

Oh my...now it's "hate America", is it?
Imperial misadventures overseas are beginning to require a fascism here.  Rule of law and democracy may soon be memories.  Will you continue to support the government when it turns on you?

India and Russia are attacked for many of the same reasons we are, India is fighting Muslims in Kashmir, and you may ask the Russians about the consequences of war in Afghanistan.
The attack in Bali was against western interests.*
The other attacks you cited are awful enough, but don't amount to more than a normal day in Juarez, Mexico.
And of course there are crazy Muslims, who argues there's not?

Point is, when you go across the world to impose your will on others through violence, as we do in Afghanistan, you WILL make some people angry enough to strike back.  Why deny it?

When you torture and jail people indefinitely without trial, simply by declaring them 'enemy combatants' AS OUR GOVERNMENT COULD DO TO YOU, that's fascism.

ironglow, I love my country and it's people.  I do NOT love an out-of-control government which acts against the best interests of our country, nor will I ever.


*A week after the blasts Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera put to air an audio-cassette purportedly carrying a recorded voice message from Osama Bin Laden saying that the Bali bombings were in direct retaliation for support of the United States' war on terror and Australia's role in the liberation of East Timor.[9]

    "You will be killed just as you kill, and will be bombed just as you bomb," "Expect more that will further distress you."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Bali_bombings

[ironglow]

TM7, in answer to your post #116 ;

  First you falsely claim that I profess that we should enter a foreign country to "invade,conquer and remake" it. I don't know where you got that from since I never endorsed that idea. The fact is, I look at it a bit differently than you do .
  I see it as myself (USA) pretty well minding my own farm, when a pack of wolves (terrorists) attack my sheep (citizens). They start by attacking all kinds of targets around my farm..Marines in Lebanon, ships docked in "friendly" ports, my embassies..then these same wolves start getting bolder and coming right into my farm pasture.. World trade center #1..then since I may have seemed timid, they attacked in my pasture again WTC attack #2..they even tried to destroy my headquarters (Pentagon & Capitol). So I figure, as any responsible farmer would...They don't show signs of quitting, so I'll have to go get them where they are denned up !
  
    You made several charges against the USA, saying we are such a bad nation..I will answer your accusations by the order you gave them;

1) Small pox blankets..Yes, Lord Amherst in 1763 did suggest such an idea in a letter, however there is no indication that he ever carried the plan out. Of course, this was during the French & Indian war and Lord Amherst was a British official. The United States didn't exist before 1787 when the Constitution was ratified. However; If you still have some kind of grudge with the Brits..better talk to the Queen; or perhaps Charles.
  BTW: some indians self-inflicted small pox by digging uop corpses to take their scalps..as happened to Richard Rogers' body (brother of  Robert Rogers, the foundewr & leader of Rogers Rangers) at Ft william Henry.

2) Sherman's march to the sea; Sure was brutal..but then war is brutal. Sherman himself said, "war is hell". If it is your aim to indict the USA because we have endured wars, you better indict all nations. Fact is, most nations are "born of war".

3) Salem witch trials..In 1692 a community of British subjects persecuted a small segment of their population. It was ugly and unfair..but here again..take it up with the Queen..or Charlie, perhaps. Probably the closest parallel we have today is when some guy dwelling here in the USA, takes it in his head to burn, strangle, behead or by other means, murder his wife, sister or daughters..in an "honor killing"..difficult to find much "honor' in that !

4) Importation of slaves..Truly, one of the darkest pages in our history..but we matured, disciplined ourselves and came through a better nation. Ironically, slavery still exists in that manner..much of it in Islamic nations. Somalia and the Sudan are awash in it ! Sudanese mercenary terrorists are paid their blood wages in slaves..whom they sell to richer Muslims.

5)Slaughter of the unborn..Totally indefensible..I can only cling to the fact that more than half our people do not approve of the slaughter.
  Here we have an irtony where people here kill their own young with surgical procedure, while elsewhere some consider it an "honor" kill other people's children with stupidcide bombs.

6) Stock market meltdown, and those nasty giant banks.. Both are not simply USA organizations, they are multi-national. In fact, many of them call themselves "supernational"..and surely you know that they have no national allegiance. Just because some ditzy politicians, elected by the uninformed decide it is our job to spend our capital bailing them out and "stimulating' them..don't blame the character of the USA.

7) Million people missing in the US every year..#1..I don't accept that as factual..don't know where you get your stats, but I doubt them.
Nothing seems to show any more missing person stats for the US than for any other comparably sized country.

#5 pedophile country..We are probably the #1 country to pursue and punish pedophiles, thus our statistics will appear larger. In some cultures, pedophilia is not even considered a crime, so if it is not treated as such..convictions for same will be very low. Men in some cultures may even think they are following a great religious leader if they have sex with a juvenile girl.

    So TM, I hope this clarifies some of your questions. I certainly do not think the USA is without any warts or blemish, but I do think it is the best bet in human established government yet.

  Frankly; if yiou want someday to dwell in a perfect place ..Read the Biblical book of John..especially verse 16....

[Cabin4]

IG Cabin is a Californian, I think he can be safely called part of the California blame America first crowd. He cannot in his peace/love Haite Ashbury mindset that some people (muslims) are inherently evil. In this mindset, someone can only think, that it is somehow our own fault. That we caused this to happen to us. Kind of like blaming a rape victim for being raped.

America is the shining beacon of hope in the world, and the forces that seek to cast darkness on the world are trying to extinguish the beacon. Cabin weakly uses the Constittution as his argument, but I have yet to see him point out where in the Constitution it says AMerica must surrender to an aggressor. Maybe that is an article in the limp wristed Cali Constitution, but it is not in Americas.

Sorry IG and Billy, you are the ones that hate America. The America we have now is not the America we are suppose to have. Do I hate this country , no but I do hate what it has become. You guys are the ones evading the real questions. The only question you guys should be asking is, are these wars or the major policies (foreign & domestic) constitutional? They are not! SO you are the ones that hate the real America we are suppose to have. You support the usurpers of our laws, not me. America is not just a piece of land. It is about our constitution and Bill of Rights. Until you understand or accept this as the only measure of governmental performance, you’ll may be supporting actions that violate THE laws this land. You have never responded to my repeated questions about our constitution. Likly, becasue you have no idea what it is or what it means.

Billy, I have only lived here in California for a bit over 4 years. I spent the majority of my 48 years in the upper Midwest and Pennsylvania. Your full of good one liners but really short on ANY substance.

[ironglow]

RG;
  You had best get your semantics corrected. You accuse the US of being "Imperialist"..just as our enemies often do. Please point out where..even in the last century, where we have expanded our landholdings by conquest..and kept them.
   Do you know what "imperialism" means ?

  To quote you, "the attacks against Bali was against western interests"..
  Hmmm..I guess then, we are to assume that theo-crazies attacking an innocent, non-involved people... is an acceptable "expression of displeasure" with what a third country, thousands of miles away... is doing.    Convoluted thinking..no ?

Pakistan was separated from India for a Muslim nation. Of course, fighting with each other being normal (for them) Bangladesh soon parted from Pakistan. Now , just a few decades later, we find the Muslims in an uprising to take more of India..Who, pray tell us ..are the REAL "Imperialists" ?

  BTW: Check up the definition of Fascism also.