45-70 Ammo?

[Mac11700]

The Nikon Prostaff 2-7X32 is $109.00 shipped to your door.  It has 5"+ of eye relief.

The Bushnell Banner 1.5-4.5X32 is $65.00 shipped to your door.

Both are as good as anything Leupold has produced to date.

You just can't help yourself can you..

Mac

[Coyote Hunter]

The Nikon Prostaff 2-7X32 is $109.00 shipped to your door.  It has 5"+ of eye relief.

The Bushnell Banner 1.5-4.5X32 is $65.00 shipped to your door.

Both are as good as anything Leupold has produced to date.

Focus, dude.

We were discussing scopes with about 5” eye relief.

The Nikon Prostaff 2-7x has 3.9” eye relief according to Nikon.  You can check the specs here:
http://www.nikonhunting.com/riflescopes-prostaff-prostaff-2-7x32-shotgun-hunter.html

The Bushnell Banner 1.5-4.5x32 has an eye relief of 4”.  You can check it out here:
http://www.bushnell.com/products/scopes/riflescopes/banner/711545/

Frankly, when I’m shooting heavy recoiling .45-70 loads (some of my hunting loads run 35-48 foot-pounds recoil) I’ll take all the eye relief I can get.  Less than 4” and less doesn’t come close to what I want.

Also, if you think the quality of the lenses and coatings in a $65 scope are comparable to those on a $300 scope or even a $229 scope, I would remind you of the truth as stated by P. T. Barnum:

"There's a sucker born every minute."

[Swampman]

As I mentioned several times there is no standard way to measure ete relief.  Both of those I mentioned have more than the published figures.

You guys have really derailed this thread.

Buy some Remington 405s push them 2000 fps and the hogs aren't going anywhere.  Hogs are pretty easy to kill.

[Dixie Dude]

I believe eye reliefs are based on averages, like length of pull on a rifle or shotgun.  Some people need more, some less, depends on their eyesight.  Friend of mine can't stand Simmons or Nikons.  He said they have dark shadows around the center.  I've never had a problem with either.  He said he couldn't bring them far enough back to get good eye releif.  He has a short neck.  Can't bring his head closer. 

[LONGTOM]

I can tell you one thing, you push a 405gr to 2000 and a 300gr to 2000 and your shoulder will tell you that the 405 hurts a lot more than it does with a 300.
I don't care what the #s tell you.
My shoulder knows the difference!
With either of these I want all the eye releif I can get.


LONGTOM

[Coyote Hunter]

As I mentioned several times there is no standard way to measure ete relief.  Both of those I mentioned have more than the published figures.

You guys have really derailed this thread.

Buy some Remington 405s push them 2000 fps and the hogs aren't going anywhere.  Hogs are pretty easy to kill.

Where is your proof that "Both of those I mentioned have more than the published figures"?  Just another assertion on your part with no evidence to back it up.

Thanks, but I'll stick with the manufacturer numbers.  There is, in fact, a reasonably standard definition of eye relief which leads to reasonably similar results in measurements.  When a manufacturer states a scope has 3.9” eye relief you can rest assured they are pretty close and that it is not anywhere near 5”.

It still comes back to the fact that if you want a real 2-7 rifle scope (150 yard parallax setting) with about 5” eye relief your only choice is Leupold’s VX-II.

As to pushing a Remington 405g to 2000fps, yes, it will kill stuff.  It will also run about 46 foot-pounds of recoil with a sharp 20fps recoil velocity.  You can kill hogs just as effectively with a much more shoulder-friendly 300g Barnes XFN or Speer UCHP bullet running 2000fps with 26 foot-pounds recoil and a recoil velocity of 16fps. 

My favorite loads include a Speer 300g @ 2247fps for 36.6 foot-pounds recoil and 18fps recoil velocity and a 350g North Fork at 2183fps with 43 foot-pounds recoil and 19fps recoil velocity.  The beauty of these two loads is they shoot to about the same POI out to 300 yards (the difference is calculated at 0.1” which matches my observation that they are interchangeable at that range).  That means I can use the lighter recoil load for most of my practice, which my shoulder much appreciates.

[Swampman]

The nasty recoil with those light bullets is something I'll pass on.  You can stick with faux manuf data if you wish.  I have to go by a ruler and actual measurements.

Anyway, avoid the light bullets and you'll be a happy camper.  They serve no real purpose.

[Skunk]

You can stick with faux manuf data if you wish.

Just curious though Swamper. Why would a manufacturer claim their scopes to have only 3.9" of eye relief if the scope could come even close to having 5"? Eye relief is a major selling point for certain scopes, especially those intended for big bore applications. You'd think the manufacturer would be touting and singing the praise of their scopes that have 5" of eye relief.

[Coyote Hunter]

The nasty recoil with those light bullets is something I'll pass on.  …

So you believe the 26 foot-pounds at 16fps for a 300g doing 2000fps is worse than 46 foot-pounds at 20fps for a 405g also doing 2000fps?

That pretty much says all anyone needs to know to understand you are not credible.

[Swampman]

There's more to it than ft-lbs.  There is no standard way to measure eye relief.  An example would be Bushnell 3200-4200 scopes.  The eye relief is the same on paper but the 3200 has considerably more (but still not enough for hard kickers) in real life.  I also believe some manuf. measure variables set on the lowest power and some (Nikon for instance)seems to measure with them set on the highest power.  The later is the way they should be measured.

[john keyes]

.

[Swampman]

I am....I'm gonna stop now.

[Coyote Hunter]

I am....I'm gonna stop now.

I'm not surprised - you've made a lot of foolish claims and can't back any of them up because the manufacturer provided data and the laws of physics show you're wrong.

[Swampman]

There's no point in allowing the thread to be derailed and you aren't willing to accept almost 50 years of real world experience over something written on a piece of paper.

[yellowtail3]

SO... will a 45-70 help me kill more/better deer than with my 30-30?    ...just kidding... actually, the idea of a big bullet appeals... kind of like my ML, but with another shot and no cleanup. Price of ammo would prob move me to reload!

I've a Bushnell 1.5-4x32 Trophy which I've liked - i don't know how much eye relief it has, be it's more than my Nikon 2-7. I actually liked it a little better for that, though it's not quite as bright (diff is minor).

I orig got it for muzzleloader.

[Coyote Hunter]

There's no point in allowing the thread to be derailed and you aren't willing to accept almost 50 years of real world experience over something written on a piece of paper.

Once again your tactics are familiar – you can’t win the argument on the basis of independently verifiable facts so you try to change the conversation.

For many years people believed the world was flat and the center of the universe based on their “experience”.  The sum total of their “experience” could be counted in millions of man-years, yet they were wrong.  I would say it is the same with you, but I don’t think for a second that even you believe much of what you write.

Fortunately, some of us have a much better understanding of the physical world around us than did the flat earthers.  The fact is that recoil is attributable to specific factors.  By using the same firearm we can limit the differences to factors that are easily measured, the most important of which are powder charge, bullet weight and muzzle velocity.  When doing that and firing 300g and 405g bullets at the same velocity, the 405g bullet will have more significantly more recoil, contrary to your claim to the opposite.

It’s not “50 years of real world experience” that I’m not willing to accept, it is YOUR claimed “experience” I am not willing to accept except as a work of fiction.  I’ll take my 50 years of shooting experience and I’ll accept the combined experience of many others who also find your claims fly in the face of both their experience and the laws of physics.

[Coyote Hunter]

SO... will a 45-70 help me kill more/better deer than with my 30-30?    ...

Kill more/better deer?  No – put one in the vitals with a .30-30 and the deer is usually doomed.  What a .45-70 can do is provide a greater penetration at bad angles and a higher percentage of pass-thrus (which means more blood on the ground for easier tracking,  etc.)  Deer that might get lost with a .30-30 might be found with a .45-70.

For elk I prefer my .45-70 and I would definitely prefer it in big bear country.

[Swampman]

There was no argument.  I don't have to win.  I just stated my opinions and you've stated yours.  I can't lose because I made up my own mind based on my personal experiences.  I didn't state something based on what I read in a book or magazine.

The .45-70 is a great cartridge as is the .30-30.

[brianscott12]

I haven't been in here in a while. This thread sure has switched directions.

[Coyote Hunter]

There was no argument.  I don't have to win.  I just stated my opinions and you've stated yours.  I can't lose because I made up my own mind based on my personal experiences.  I didn't state something based on what I read in a book or magazine.

The .45-70 is a great cartridge as is the .30-30.

There is actually a lot of good, factual information in books and magazines once you get through the marketing fluff.  My statements are based partly on manufacturer data, partly on independently verifiable calculated data and partly on my own 50 years of experience.  Unlike you, apparently, I don't have a bias that blinds me.

[tobster]

Getting back to the original topic of 45-70 ammo- Has anybody else had experiences with the Remington 300jhp's that might indicate they are almost too frangible for even deer at around 1800 fps and under 100 yds?

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  I did shoot one antelope with them, they came apart pretty badly, but since the whole deal did not go as I planned, I would give then another go now that I picked up another Marlin 45-70///

[calling4life]

Why not try out Federals Fusion 300 gr. May hold up a bit better.

I've only shot paper with it, and don't see anything other than coyotes, maybe a mountain lion being tenderized with it in the near future, so I can't comment on how it will hold up yet. 

But with reports I've heard on this fusion ammo in the past, it does seem to be a good round, might be worth a look to you gents.

[Coyote Hunter]

Wyo. Coyote Hunter -

If I was just starting out with my .45-70 and knew what I know now, I'd use a lot of speer 300g UCHP and Swift 350g A-Frame bullets.  As it is I have a big supply of North Fork 350's that will likely see to my hunting needs for years to come.

Good luck with your new toy.

[Wyo. Coyote Hunter]

  CH, Thanks, I will look into these bullets...It will be a bit before I get back to town to buy these, but will check them out...

[HL]

I used the Rem 300gr JHP's this season and took a nice 8 point at about 75 yards. Bullet made a complete pass through at the base of the neck and dropped him like a safe fell on top of him.

I have mine loaded to 1800fps. Not as much tissue damage as with my 7mag, so there was a little more meat to claim, which is what I like.

There was a 1/2" entry hole and about a 1-1/2" exit hole which bled pretty well.

These bullets were also good with 150lb hogs with complete pass through with the same size holes.

Oh, and with these 300gr REm., recoil is minimal with 1800fps loads! 

[Terbltim]

Getting back to the original topic of 45-70 ammo- Has anybody else had experiences with the Remington 300jhp's that might indicate they are almost too frangible for even deer at around 1800 fps and under 100 yds?

I used those Rem. 300gr JHPs for several years at around 1800fps (which is the approximate factory velocity.)
I consider that bullet and velocity to be an excellent blend of performance characteristics for deer at normal deer-shooting distances, (35yds to 150yds in my experience...all over the continental US.)
Wounds were always large, bleeding profuse and I don't recall any lost game that was hit by one of those bullets at any velocity.
I don't think a better bullet can be bought for the same money...for deer hunting.

[Coyote Hunter]

I used those Rem. 300gr JHPs for several years at around 1800fps (which is the approximate factory velocity.)
I consider that bullet and velocity to be an excellent blend of performance characteristics for deer at normal deer-shooting distances, (35yds to 150yds in my experience...all over the continental US.)
Wounds were always large, bleeding profuse and I don't recall any lost game that was hit by one of those bullets at any velocity.
I don't think a better bullet can be bought for the same money...for deer hunting.

That is one of the great things about the .45-70 for deer – big chunks of metal tend to be very effective regardless of bullet design.  You don’t need a 405g or their recoil – a 300 is plenty, they will recoil less for any given velocity or they can shoot flatter for a given recoil level.

[EsoxLucius]

Hey, I want to get in here and change the topic! 

The best case scenario for me is for the bullet to expend all its energy in the game. If the bullet passes clean through, this goal is not reached, thus the concept of bullet types like hollow-points. The mushrooming effect of the HP bullet allows the bullet to expand, and expend more energy in the game.

The concept of a bullet expending all its energy in game is a fallacy.  The only thing that matters is the wound channel created, and if that includes an exit wound all the better.  A mushrooming bullet does not kill by expending more energy in the target, it kills by creating a larger wound channel.

On the topic of 45-70 bullets for hogs, most hogs will die quite nicely with sound hits from the Sierra 300 grain hollow point.  However, I have the most experience with the 405 grain Remington JSP on hogs and at 1950 fps it will put them down in a hurry.  In both of my 1970's vintage Marlin 1895s (one of which I've loaded for since 1977), the Siamese Mauser I had in the 1970's, and the W&H 1871 Buffalo Classic I've had for 10 years, a 400/405 grain bullet at 1950 fps generates substantially more felt recoil than a 300 grain bullet driven the same speed.  Hence, personal observations obviously can differ.

[Swampman]

They sure can.  Go figure.