Author Topic: 45-120 is it obsolete  (Read 1340 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline harley berry

  • Classified -- Banned
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 48
45-120 is it obsolete
« on: November 21, 2009, 05:30:04 PM »
if I make a 45-120 h&r would that make it an absolete rifle due to the lack of available ammo and scarsety of the caliber?

Offline Spanky

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (96)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4627
  • Gender: Male
  • USMC Semper Fidelis
Re: 45-120 is it absolete
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2009, 06:09:54 PM »
Brass and bullets are available. There are a few on this site who have reamed 45-70's out. I think you really need to go with black powder in the 120 case.
Talk to Quick, Ty, or Atlaw about it, they have done the reaming. There are probably others but I can't think of any right now.
As far as it being obsolete... it was probably obsolete 100 years ago... but you know what they say about things getting better with age. ;)



Spanky

Offline knight0334

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • Pennsylvania Firearm Owners
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2009, 04:50:29 AM »
With the short barreled Handi's, the 45-120 will gain you nothing in velocity. But you'll be able to lower your operating pressures a bit when using smokeless and have the near same velocities of the 45-70.

To utilize the big case of the 45-120, you need lots of barrel to make use of either - smokeless or blackpowder.  With a short barrel and a stout load of powder, much of it will burn past the muzzle.  If you short charge with smokeless in the 120 case, you get some horrible accuracy issues, and inconsistent ignition problems as well since the powder can settle far from the primer.

Cases can be had for around $2ea give or take - yes, they are a bit pricey compared to others.  What you may have a problem with is finding a press that has enough stroke to load them without having to back the die out to insert a bullet or remove a loaded cartridge from the shell holder.  Theres only a few presses with enough clearance to load the big monster 3.25" case, plus have room for the bullet.   Buying loaded 45-120 ammo will run you into the poor house within a couple boxes.  With such steep prices you will make out on buying an entire loading setup in a real short time period, unlike trying to compete with bulk 9mm stuff.  You can save dollars per cartridge loading yourself, versus fractions of a cent to a few pennies for bulk mil-surp ammo for one's getto blaster.

As for "obsolete" legal status - no.   The 45-120 ammo is still in production in normal commercial channels - internet.   
RIP ~ Teeny: b.10/27/66 - d.07/03/07

Offline trotterlg

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (36)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3978
  • Gender: Male
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2009, 05:50:37 AM »
I think what he is refering to are the federal regulations related to obsolete chamberings with ammunition no longer avaliable through normal channels.  If this were considered a replica with ammunition no longer avaliable then it would not be considered a modern firearm and not be subject to modern firearms laws and transfer regulations.  I may be wrong, but that is my reading of the rules.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline knight0334

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1139
  • Gender: Male
    • Pennsylvania Firearm Owners
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2009, 06:34:16 AM »
Right, but even if you were to go buy a C. Sharps, Shiloh Sharps, a Pedersoli, or some other make of 45-120, you'd still have to do the 4473 because they aren't classified as obsolete or antique status.   A rechambered BC would be even further from that status because it's initial state is a "firearm".

RIP ~ Teeny: b.10/27/66 - d.07/03/07

Offline Cottonwood

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2780
  • Gender: Male
  • "Capturing the moment, to last a lifetime"
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2009, 07:28:28 AM »
Accurate Arms has reloading data for the 45-120 and yes it is considered an obsolete cartridge just as the 45-90, 45-100 and the 45-110.  Many BPCR shooters have tried in vain to do well with the 45-120 and as always have the either a new barrel in 45-90, 45-100 or the 45-110 chambering then.

In reality the only edge to having a longer 45 case was for the BP charge and not smokeless powder charge.  Others would have the 45-120 done for the coolness factor at the range, but your not going to get any more FPS out of this cartridge than what you can get with the 45-70 Govt.

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43304
  • Gender: Male
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2009, 08:43:57 AM »
That's not true Jon, when smokeless powder is used, velocities close to the 458 Lott can be achieved at pressures not exceeding 40kpsi. Even at trapdoor pressure of less than 30kpsi, the 45-120 will equal Ruger level 45-70 500gr velocities of 1800fps, see Hodgdon 45-120 H4895 data.
 
Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,148995.msg1098618734.html#msg1098618734

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp






"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Cottonwood

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2780
  • Gender: Male
  • "Capturing the moment, to last a lifetime"
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2009, 08:44:58 AM »
Learned something new  ;D

Offline tykempster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
  • I enjoy long range shooting and big guns.
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2009, 03:18:05 PM »
405's at 2550
500's at 2250

40k and under pressure.  STOMPS 45-70.

And I bet if you stuff a 45-70 case full of blackpowder, and a 45-120 case full of blackpowder, then you put the same bullet on top of each, then the 45-120 will push it out faster.

Offline Cottonwood

  • Trade Count: (5)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2780
  • Gender: Male
  • "Capturing the moment, to last a lifetime"
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2009, 04:01:58 PM »
405's at 2550
500's at 2250

40k and under pressure.  STOMPS 45-70.

And I bet if you stuff a 45-70 case full of blackpowder, and a 45-120 case full of blackpowder, then you put the same bullet on top of each, then the 45-120 will push it out faster.

Not disputing your numbers, but I remember guy's with Sharps and Shiloh rifles that weighed alot more than the BC, get torn retnas from 45-110's in BPCR shooting 500-gr and 550-gr boolits.  In a 45-120 with a stomping load of smokeless to get those numbers recoil must be a whopper.

Offline AtlLaw

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (58)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6462
  • Gender: Male
  • A good woman, nice bike and fine guns!
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2009, 04:23:46 PM »
Naw, not much ofa kick for real men.   8)

and a limb saver and a heap of lead in the stock and an extra recoil pad and...    ;D
Richard
Former Captain of Horse, keeper of the peace and interpreter of statute.  Currently a Gentleman of leisure.
Nemo me impune lacessit

                      
Support your local US Military Vets Motorcycle Club

Offline Spanky

  • Moderators
  • Trade Count: (96)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4627
  • Gender: Male
  • USMC Semper Fidelis
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2009, 04:26:01 PM »
Uhhhh... what's that fine print say? :D



Spanky

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43304
  • Gender: Male
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2009, 04:49:07 PM »
Tyler added a mercury recoil reducer and a real recoil pad to his BC, I don't think he shoots from the bench either.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,146019.msg1098612473.html#msg1098612473
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline tykempster

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
  • I enjoy long range shooting and big guns.
Re: 45-120 is it obsolete
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2009, 05:23:13 PM »
They suck from the bench plain and simple.  I have done it, wouldn't do it again for money.*

If you get torn retinas from a 45-110 with blackpowder in a heavy gun, I'd blame it on the health of your retinas instead of a fairly tame amount of recoil.





*Depending if it happens to be a sizable sum