Felt recoil

[av-doctor]

I have a question about felt recoil. I was researching first rifle choices for my friends son, he is kinda small and has never shot anything before.He was planning to give him a H&R in 243 win,I think it will be too much for him so i suggested a 357 mag.
   I was looking around local shops today and had a gunsmith tell me 357 would have more felt recoil than the 243.
   I have a 243 in a savage rifle so i can reference felt recoil from that,I have a dan wesson in 357 but have not shot 357 from a rifle barrel.
   just for comparisn sake 357 mag 158gr factory loads to 100gr soft points for the 243 as he doesn't reload.
   My question since many of you have both or have shot both in a handi is this the case? I just can't seem to figure out why it would,his comment was something to the effect of its a bigger bullet so it would kick more,

[mannyrock]

  For the exact answer to which one has the most felt recoil, you can go to the Beartooth Bullets website, and then go to their ballistics page, and you will find the formula for computing free recoil energy, based on the speed of the bullet, weight of the bullet, weight of the rifle, and grains of powder in the load.  You just plug these in on the screen, press Enter, and the formula will give you the answer in footpounds.

   From personal experiences with both calibers in light rifles, I believe you are totally correct.  The felt recoil of the .357 magnum, standard 158 grain load, seems almost non-existent, compared to the recoil, noise and muzzle jump of the .243 Winchester in a light rifle.

    This may be due to the fact that the .357 magnum is traveling at very low velocity, and the .243 Winchester is probably approaching 3,000 feet per second!

   I do know that you if pay to put a nice recoil pad on the rifle, such as a Pachmeyer Decelerator or a Kick-Eez, then your son will definitely have no problem whatsover with the .357 mag, and in all likeliehood, he will have no problem with the .243 either.

  Personally, I would start him with the .357 Mag, since it is much more fun to shoot and plink with, and its alot cheaper to in terms of factory ammo.

  Just my experiences.

Mannyrock

[mannyrock]

  Another advantage with buying the .357 Mag is that you can sight it in for, and have him shoot, the  38 P+ rounds, to get him totally comfortable with the gun.  After that, you can re-sight it for the .357 Mag, by adjusting the scope up just one or two clicks.   Then, when you go hunting, put the .357 Mag round in it.  Believe me, in the excitement of shooting a deer, he will never notice the somewhat more recoil of the .357 Mag.  It will be a non-issue.

Mannyrock

[canon6]

Not meaning to demean the "gunsmith",   oh wait I do want to demean the "gunsmith" in other words,male bovine fecal mater.
Recoil is the result of a set of physical/chemical actions/ reactions there are four "causes of recoil

Bullet weight
Charge weight
velocity
weight of the firearm.

Any change can cause a increase /decrease .
I shoot 357 Mag  180 grain wfngc at  north of 1800 fps
I have shot a 243 Winchester   90gr Nosler at @3000  fps.         It hurts worse more than the 357.  Doug

[spikehorn]

I think at his age the sound and the muzzle jump will be more of a factor than actual felt recoil, because those two factor into perceived recoil which can be alot different than felt recoil. about 4 years ago when my son was 12 he was fine with a 223. shot a 243 once and would never shoot it again. now that he's 16 I can't get the the 308 away from him.

[spruce]

For a quick comparison look in the FAQ's under "Handi rifle recoil by caliber" and you'll see average recoil of .357 mag is less than half that of a .243.

Also, realguns.com has a ballistics calculator where you can plug in all the data (bullet wt, charge wt, velocity, gun wt) and it calculates the recoil.

Besides having much less recoil the .357 from a rifle has much less muzzle blast than a .243.

[Skunk]

And the .357 would be just plain more fun than the .243...

[mannyrock]

 It is simply amazing the stupid and ridiculous things that gunsmiths tell people about hunting and shooting.  I see it all of the time.  They seem to just make it up!
Why??? Most professionals don't just make stuff up when they don't know the answer.

Mannyrock

[quickdtoo]

Here's a table with commonly available chamberings and their recoil, as has been said, the 357mag has about half the recoil of the 243. There are a couple links in the FAQs to previous discussions on the subject of rifles for youths, be sure to read them while you're in there. 

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

[Austin1]

I hate to sound like a smart A** but if a shooter can't handle the recoil of a .243 Grow some? My Wife can handle Normal ie Factory 7x57 loads very well in my Ruger 77 She does not hunt but likes to show me up in some target shooting, Dam her! she can punch holes in paper all day long with that 7x57 and say gee look the bullets are touching  :-[I have put  100rds of 6mm through a 788 and did not even notice the recoil,then I ran out of ammo and picked up my 602BRNO in .375 and took a shot at a gopher forgetting what I was shooting ya I had Magnum Eye! I just let the gun sit there without even holding on to it! I paid the price for that lol!

[petemi]

Eleven thousand ++++etc. on the .357.  When he gets a little bigger you can ream it to Maximum.  I don't see much recoil difference between the 6mm Rem (.243) and the .357 max if I remember correctly.  To me, they're both light.

Pete

[briannmilewis]

I hate to sound like a smart A** but if a shooter can't handle the recoil of a .243 Grow some?...

Austin: With all due defference to you, I am a 250lb adult male and I consider the above quote very uninformed. I contend that any shooter will shoot better if they do not have to deal with excess recoil. 5ft lb of recoil in a 357 is quite controllable, and a lot of fun. Having shot a Marlin 357, the caliber and its recoil allowed me to be totally in control and way more accurate with open sights than I thought I would be with these old eyes.

So, why should I and my teenage sons have to put up with more recoil than that when we graduate to more high powered rounds? My solution will be to add a recoil reducer to the butt or use slip-on Limbsavers to any high powered rifle I purchase in the future. Shooting does not have to be a physical endurance test in the 21st century. It should be fun that you can do all day long without becoming fatigued and injured. I intend on enjoying my hobby and sharing it with anyone, of any age and any stature, with the widest choice of firearms as possible.

[Spanky]

Hunting and plinking is supposed to be enjoyable. Getting your fillings knocked out with a heavy recoiling gun just ain't fun.
I don't know about anyone else but I shoot alot better with the lighter kicking guns too. You can actually focus on making good shots without holding on for dear life.



Spanky

[spikehorn]

There are differences in guns chambered for the same caliber. The first 308 I ever owned was a Rossi single shot. It was one of the most brutal guns in terms of recoil I have ever shot. I now have a Stevens 200 308 which has a good nudge to it, and recently bought a H&R ultra varmint 308 and it seems to have less felt recoil than the Stevens. Start the kid on the 357 in a couple years get him a 243 or 7-08 0r a 308.

[Spanky]

Start the kid on the 357 in a couple years get him a 243 or 7-08 0r a 308.

If he starts out with the 357 he probably wont want a 243 or 7-08 or a 308.



Spanky

[mannyrock]

    Having introduced dozens of women and kids to shooting and hunting during my life (and having converted almost of them into long term gun folks), I can definitely tell you that you have to make them fall in love with shooting (plinking) FIRST, and then hunting second.   Starting with a .22 LR and soup cans, and then moving up to the .357 Mag. and coffee cans is a perfect way to go.

   Macho attitudes like "grow some" or "let them take the pain" are why most middle of the road people come to hate hunters and shooters.  Treating a kid this way will quickly turn what could be the best day of his life into a day of pain and humiliation, resulting in him hating guns and hunting for the rest of his life, and then voting against you on all gun issues just ten short years later.
  
  Would you take a little kid out on a basketball court for the first time, hit him hard with the ball over and over, and then tell him to "man-up."?  Not me.

  Mannyrock
 

[Skunk]

5ft lb of recoil in a 357 is quite controllable, and a lot of fun.

Hunting and plinking is supposed to be enjoyable. Getting your fillings knocked out with a heavy recoiling gun just ain't fun.

Start the kid on the 357 in a couple years get him a 243 or 7-08 0r a 308.

If he starts out with the 357 he probably wont want a 243 or 7-08 or a 308.

I can definitely tell you that you have to make them fall in love with shooting (plinking) FIRST, and then hunting second. Starting with a .22 LR and soup cans, and then moving up to the .357 Mag. and coffee cans is a perfect way to go.

[BBF]

......  After that, you can re-sight it for the .357 Mag, by adjusting the scope up just one or two clicks.  

Mannyrock
[/quote


That may or may not handle elevation however there is a good chance that it will not have the same "windage"

[mechanic]

I have a 7 yr. old grandson who loves to shoot my 357.  The 243 scares the life out of him because of muzzle blast, and has considerable more recoil.  He never blinks with the 357.

[Slowhanddd]

I just had this same conversation with my oldest son about my 12 yr old Grandson.He's pretty lite weight and not too big.He can shoot lights out with a 22lr.I had a 243 Handi that i gave him to keep and use when he can.It's just too much for him.My son thinks he should "man up" and go for it.I reminded him of the days when he wouldn't hunt with me because the 20 gu.kicked him on his butt.Now he's 6'3 and 240# and can shoot about anything.I told him the best way to ruin Timmy was to force him to shoot and develope a flinch that he might never over come.I myself hate shooting big recoilers.My 270 kicks the snot out of me when shooting paper,but when killing game I don't even know when it goes off.Used to use a 45-70 in a Marlin lever.Too much hurt on me.Sold the gun and never looked back.This week I was over at my neighbors sighting in and he brought out his BC with steel butt plate.Told him no thanks.They called me a feline name and went to shooting it.The next morning at the cafe for breakfast they both were drinking coffee lifting the cup with the wrong hand because their shoulders were to sore to move.Bruised and green looking.When I left I tapped him on the shoulder bone and I think he wet himself.Kep the guns light on the youngin's and they grow into the bigger ones and will give you many years of memories watching them.Slow

[av-doctor]

First i'd like to thank you all for your replies. I want to clarify this is for my friends son not mine. For my son i started him with a rossi single in 22/410 combo when he was 5 it gave him a chance to learn more about safe handling of the gun, which to me is more important than killing something! when he turned 11 i left him shoot my 223 handi off bags at the range he was fine with that so after he completed his hunter safety course i picked up a topper 158 in 30-30 which he will be using for this years upcoming deer season
  My friend's boy has never shot anything he has never been around anyone shooting.my friend only sights in and hunts he doesn't shoot again till the next year.In PA we have a mentored hunting program which allows a licenced hunter take a kid that is not of legal hunting age out to hunt. He wanted to hand him a 243 let him sight it and hunt with no other shooting i'm trying to talk him out of it but that is how he learned so he thinks its fine personally i do not approve but he will do what he wants in the end.I'm just trying to save the boy alot of pain physical and emotional because my friend will tell him to suck it up you little (cat name)
   Thats why suggested 357 mag i figured 38 special to get used to shooting then switching to 357 would be an easy transition.I just couldn't wrap my mind around the comment that it would kick more because its a bigger bullet.

[zoner]

wellllll, first your gunsmith is full of it in regards to this recoil issue.....357 mag recoil in a handi is pretty much non-existent. Starting someone's shooting career with a gun that kicks too hard is NOT a good idea....flinching is a habit that is very hard to break once you start.....

[Cottonwood]

Start him out with the .357 Mag like others have said, let him know his limits and I hope he has the most fun in the world with a Handi Rifle.  I have people who mock the ol single shots because they are not a bolt gun or semi auto.  But my bow is a single shot too, and no one mocks a bow that has used them.

A mild recoiling rifle will make him a much better shooter, and when he is ready to step up he can.

Just my .02 cents on the matter.

[357magrifleman]

I have a savage 243, A HR 243, a Marlin 357, a Henry 357  and a HR 357.  As far as recoil, the recoil felt, I rate them as least to more:Henry 357, marliin 357, HR357, Savage 243 and the HR 243.  Please note that all thre of 357's has very little felt recoil and that I have a recoil pad on the HR 243 and none on the savage 243.  My wife 125# and in a wheelchair prefers the marlin 357, and can shoot the hr 243. She hasn't shot the  HR 357 yet.  

[Sourdough]

The 357 can be shot with .38 Specials to get the kid shooting.  Then after the kid is comfortable you can move up to the .38+P.  Then it is a small step to the .357.

I start small girls (11 yr old) out with my .44Mag Carbine.  I load some light .44 Specials, with 180gr bullets.

The most important thing is that it is cut down to fit a small child.  If the stock does not fit it will knock the heck out of a kid.  Want to ruin a kid on shooting, have them shoot a recoiling gun that does not fit them.  That's the main reason most wives will not go out and shoot with the husband, Young man takes his bride out and has her shoot his hunting rifle.  This gun has a stock that fits a man's frame, not the smaller frame of a woman.  When she shoots it the gun knocks the heck out of her.  It hurts so bad she never wants to shoot a hunting rifle again.  So he loses the best hunting partner he could ever have from the start.  My wife is 4'11" and at the time weighed 95 lbs.  I got a Marlin .44 carbine, and had it cut down to fit her with a jacket on.  Then I started her out with .44 specials just like I now do kids.  She became my best hunting partner, she sees color, (I'm color blind) I see shapes and small movements she will miss.

When I get ready to take my class out to the Skeet range, I have had many fathers bring out a .410 for their little girls to shoot.  Full length stock, and a box of factory 3" shells.  Dad feels it will kick less than the cut down 20ga I am supplying, with light skeet loads.  I am almost to the point of banning Dads from going with us to the Skeet range.  Moms and Kids do fine, put a Dad in there and he thinks he knows more than anyone else.

[spikehorn]

Started my kid on a 22lr when he was 7 or 8 moved him up to a 22 mag when he was 10 or so when he turned 12 and took his hunter safety course moved him up to a 223 and a 20 ga. when he was 13 he joined SCTP the scholastic clay target program. His novice squad went to the nationals in Vandalia Ohio and the placed 11th in the world. starting him out slow he didn't develop all of my bad habits. My dad bought me guns but wasn't into hunting or shooting sports so I kind of learned on my own and now it's hard to break the habits I've developed. Start them slow!

[357magrifleman]

what Sourdough  said too.

[jlwilliams]

As much as the .243 is an outstanding round, among the most versitile rifle rounds, I'll jump on the bandwagon and agree with most everybody else.  Particularly given that he doesn't reload, the .357 is the better first rifle.  The versatility of shooting light 38spl loads or .357 mags for real hunting effect is something you can't beat.  I saw 38spl value packs (50 or 100 rounds) at Wally world last week for less than any rifle round.  38 out of a rifle is nearly un noticable recoil and not enough blast to cause a flinch, and pistol ammo (even .357) is just cheaper to shoot that rifle.  For a non reloader, the only way to get that economy and the variable loads is to buy a rifle in a magnum handgun round.

  All that said, the 22/410 combo you started your son with is about as good a first gun as there is. 

[av-doctor]

The 22/410 was a youth model and was still too long for him i needed to to take another inch off of it to fit him he ended up carrying 410 with slugs last year because i ran into a fitment problem with the topper it was wearing shotgun furniture and the drop was too much for scope use. i remember when i started shooting my bro handed me his mossberg 500 12ga he said if you want to shoot you'll learn to handle this i hated the kick but loved shooting i spent the summer with a purple shoulder.
   

[Austin1]

I hate to sound like a smart A** but if a shooter can't handle the recoil of a .243 Grow some?...

Austin: With all due defference to you, I am a 250lb adult male and I consider the above quote very uninformed. I contend that any shooter will shoot better if they do not have to deal with excess recoil. 5ft lb of recoil in a 357 is quite controllable, and a lot of fun. Having shot a Marlin 357, the caliber and its recoil allowed me to be totally in control and way more accurate with open sights than I thought I would be with these old eyes.

So, why should I and my teenage sons have to put up with more recoil than that when we graduate to more high powered rounds? My solution will be to add a recoil reducer to the butt or use slip-on Limbsavers to any high powered rifle I purchase in the future. Shooting does not have to be a physical endurance test in the 21st century. It should be fun that you can do all day long without becoming fatigued and injured. I intend on enjoying my hobby and sharing it with anyone, of any age and any stature, with the widest choice of firearms as possible.

Sorry I did not want to sound like a A** but I will stick to my guns on this one Sure if your looking for a plinking gun get a small Caliber 25/20 is a great one. If deer hunting yes just deer not Elk or Moose get at least a .243 the .25s are some of my fave. For no other reason than you owe it to the animal to put it down fast with No fuss. A .357 is not going to be good for that 250yrd Muledeer and a new hunter might not even guess the range right It will be fine for that 75 yrd deer provided you use the right bullet that applies to the .243 too.  I am a skinny guy we bend lol but I don't like getting pounded no more than the next guy I have a .375 I bought 20 years ago and a very old .404 that was given to me by grand dad and had seen it's share of lion kills. I do not fear them I fear my Mohawk 600 in .308 plastic butt pad it it is a mean little gun. I guess it depends on what you are hunting,game law's  in the area and You can site in using a bag of sand or shot on your shoulder. But you owe it to the animal to hit it in the vitals and hit it hard enough to kill it fast I am sure a .357 out of a rifle would work well on deer that are close and again this depends on where you are hunting. I think most of us started with .22 LR I have hit and killed gophers at 150yds with them but they are far from ideal a .222 is much better. Not trying to be Macho but we owe it to the animal being hunted and this depends on the range, too A flat shooting gun takes away a lot of guess work and makes hitting the target easy something to take into account with a new hunter, dont matter if it's 50yds or 250yds. And plus you will be more sore dragging that buck back to the truck than you will be from pulling the trigger! About the game laws in the area up until a few years ago here it was min cal .23 and it had to have a case length of 41mm ruleing out the 7.62/39 and all pistole cases. That has changed now it just has to be bigger than .23 that was because of the short mag and a few wildcats.