Author Topic: best straight-walled cartridge for deer? (Read 3289 times)

carolcann · « **on:** October 14, 2003, 09:11:39 AM »

I posted a variant of this on another forum but it went OT quickly...

Here's the deal, in this area during firearm (shotgun) deer season one is allowed to use "a handgun of at least .350 caliber, using straight-walled cartidges and must not hold more than nine rounds in barrel and magazine combined, any type smokeless powder handgun."

So given that, what do you choose for - maximum effective range - and hunting from a treestand where we don't really want to get blown out by recoil...

Yes, even a .44M and 45-70 have taper but they are legal, a 44-40 or 41GNR (bottlenecked) are not.

Practice is a given but time is running out. One friend suggested a .454 Casull in a 17" bbl Encore (there are no handgun max barrel length restrictions), another swears a hot 44M in a 10" Blackhawk will do just fine. I have used a 41M and 44M, but I want to avoid passing on a spectacular deer just because he is standing at 140 yards instead of 120, you get the picture.

I need recommendations/experience!

help me please :oops:

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #1 on:** October 14, 2003, 10:13:24 AM »

My vote would be for an Encore in 45-70. Load em' up or down - your choice. Heavy loads in a 45-70 will easily take a large deer at 125yds and farther. Much more powerful than a traditional 44mag wheelgun.

I have an older Contender in 444Marlin. You would not believe the velocity and power this closed breech handgun produces. It has as much energy @ 100yds as the 44mag has @ the muzzle. The 45-70 Encore would better this rig with out much trouble.

Oh by the way, if you're recoil shy, get yourself a 2" 38 snub-nose and a gillie suit.

:-D

VH

KYODE · « **Reply #2 on:** October 14, 2003, 10:22:33 AM »

i'm a big 44mag fan. i like them all, and think the 45-70 and 444 marlin would be sledgehammers. but then, i think" what could i do with those that i couldn't do with a 44mag?". a good scoped 44 revolver, or 14" 44mag contender would be my first picks. then next would be a 14" 357maximum.

Questor · « **Reply #3 on:** October 14, 2003, 11:20:29 AM »

It's a system. I like the 44 mag because it's got the optimum balance of compactness, effectiveness, and availability of low-cost components. The others may be better in some ways, but overall the 44 mag is best.

kciH · « **Reply #4 on:** October 14, 2003, 12:00:53 PM »

357 Maximum 14 or 15" barrel with a 180gr Hornady SSP bullet will get it done with a minimum of recoil and a good trajectory.

If you like to practice on vermin during the offseason, this thing will turn most small animals inside out with a 110 or 125gr bullet. Plenty accurate and shoots plenty flat for easy hits on small animals to 200 yards.

The .375 Winchester would also be a good choice.

41MAG · « **Reply #5 on:** October 14, 2003, 12:05:40 PM »

:-D Here are a couple more 375 win good out to 150yds. 45 long colt 75 to 100 yds. 454 casull 100yds + Last but not least 41mag with the new winchester 240gr. 75 to 100yds
What ever you choose enjoy

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #6 on:** October 14, 2003, 12:44:07 PM »

44 mag

Gregory · « **Reply #7 on:** October 14, 2003, 01:39:50 PM »

Illinois is allowing handguns for the first time during the general firearms season this year. Must be at least 30 cal., available as a factory load, straight walled cartidge and have 500 ft-lbs min muzzle energy.
My 300 Whisper is out (bottlenecked), I have a 44 Mag and 357 Max Contender barrels or a 44 Special S&W that meet the criteria.

If I haven't already taken deer with the 44 Mag it might be my first choice but I'm going with the 357 Max.

Update from the IL DNR on 10/21/03:

Thank you for your comments about the proposed rules for the use of handguns during the firearm deer season. We concur that the 300 Whisper would be a suitable gun for use during the firearm deer season, and it has been allowed previously during the handgun deer season. We will incorporate new language into the proposed rule that allows the use of bottleneck cartridges of .30 caliber or larger with a case length not exceeding 1.4 inches, so long as they generate >500 ft. lbs. of energy at the muzzle. This will allow the use of any bottleneck cartridges previously allowed during the handgun season, including the 300 Whisper.

Thanks again for taking the time to comment on the rule.

                     Sincerely,

                     John Buhnerkempe, Chief
Division of Wildlife Resources

supermag 445 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 14, 2003, 04:38:05 PM »

I will have to say the 445 supermag :-D :grin: :wink: . I just love it. I do love the 44 cal but I just like the longer version of it. :wink:

Brian

Dan Chamberlain · « **Reply #9 on:** October 15, 2003, 02:54:05 AM »

I am a big fan of the .45-70! Own a bunch of'em. Having said that, I'm thinking my TC Contender in .375 Winchester would do the trick with a lot less recoil. It's a Super 14" with muzzle break and it will make head shots on bowling pins at 100 yards! This is an accurate round.

Dan C

WD45 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 15, 2003, 06:38:49 AM »

Heck... just toss a coin and pick one. Any of them will kill deer at a greater distance than most people could hit one with :lol:
I do have a question. I dont understand why they restrict to a straight walled case ? I think they are discriminating against bottle neck cartridges cause they dont have the same shape as a SS shell

or is this one of those questions with no real answer other than beaurocratic BS.

willis5 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 15, 2003, 06:54:48 AM »

poor bottle necked cartridges

sorry for gettign OT :-)

carolcann · « **Reply #12 on:** October 15, 2003, 07:24:33 AM »

So far looks like the 375Win gets the nod :grin: for maximum effective range from a handgun... Any load/bullet choices for longer range?

Remember we are talking about potential for a heavy (for a whitetail) deer.

The 45/70 sheds quite alot of energy (not to mention a rainbow trajectory) out past 130 yards or so, and I cannot imagine a stout 45/70-325gr load from a handgun! :shock: :eek:

C'mon, guys! I'm talking about sitting 15-20 feet off the ground when I shoot! :oops:

John · « **Reply #13 on:** October 15, 2003, 03:42:34 PM »

I got a question, if you're gonna have a shot that's over 100 yds., why not use shotgun and slug? To me, and maybe I'm crazy, the hand cannon would be best utilized at a lesser distance.

I'm huntin deer with a 44 mag this year, been practicing, and maybe a shot of 75 yards would be the ticket.......100+....I'm not shootin.

Just food for thought.

WD45 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 16, 2003, 08:06:13 AM »

Ok... along the lines of that last reply.
How many of you have actually watched someone shoot at a deer about 150 yards away more than once and miss ? :shock: :lol:
after some 1st hand evaluation I have found that the average hunter can not hit a paper plate consistently with a slug gun at a tru 150 yards much less with a pistol. They just dont shoot enough to be consistent. :-)

carolcann · « **Reply #15 on:** October 16, 2003, 10:54:47 AM »

Shoulder surgery. No slug guns please. :oops:

I hold my own on the 200 yard rams, but I am looking for experiences & opinions for max effective range using the above restrictions in a HANDGUN!

thx anyway...

myronman3 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 16, 2003, 03:35:06 PM »

Quote from: WD45

Ok... along the lines of that last reply.
How many of you have actually watched someone shoot at a deer about 150 yards away more than once and miss ? :shock: :lol:
after some 1st hand evaluation I have found that the average hunter can not hit a paper plate consistently with a slug gun at a tru 150 yards much less with a pistol. They just dont shoot enough to be consistent. :-)

are you kidding me? most revolvers are good to at least 75 yards, and a contender or encore is about as lethal as a rifle in the right hand. i will presume you were trolling.
as for straight walled my vote would go for either the 44 mag or the 454. the mag has the advantage of being availible almost everywhere (and aint all that far behind the casull). the casull has the capibility of more power (for the few who need it) and it can be downloaded nicely to what ever level a fella needs, but at a greater cost than the 44 mag. (components are more expensive)

jhalcott · « **Reply #17 on:** October 16, 2003, 05:19:27 PM »

carol, the 45-70 is a good 125 t0 150 yd round.It's also easier to find in ammo stores. I have an elbow wired together and I shoot mine often. It has less recoil than my 358jdj.I am not sure why you are in a tree 15 feet off the ground and looking for 150 yd shots!That to me is archery style hunting,and closer targets.
A 240 gr bullet from a t/c 14" 44 mag will do 1750 fps.Zeroed at 100yds, this will result in only ~5.5" of drop at 150 yds.It will have over 900 pounds of energy at 150.
a 7.5 revolver will get 1450 fps from this bullet,resulting in a drop of ~8" at 150 if zeroed at 100.The bullet retains ~660 fpe at 150 yds. :wink:
I KNOW what these loads will do to a deer beyond 100 yds. I THINK you might be better off on the ground where you could get a little closer to your target.
another thing you need to consider is the practice you need to be able to hit a deer with the handgun, sillywets aside,field positions aren't the same,and deer AIN"T steel targets.......Just my opinion, jh

WD45 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 17, 2003, 01:27:45 AM »

Well myronman... you got to keep a little humor mixed in with the mess....
Now to actually give an answer I would say if you are not loading your own go with 44mag cause you can get it darn near anywhere and with the right load a 44 mag WILL kill a deer at well over 100 yards providing you can put it in the right spot. I always liked the 45 colt but you are limited in off the shelf ammo to what ever your local gunshop has on hand and for some reason seems to be mostly cowboy stuff these days. unless you are handloading. The recoil of the 44mag or 45 colt will be tame compared to some the other stuff mentioned in a pistola

Gregory · « **Reply #19 on:** October 17, 2003, 04:32:33 AM »

Quote from: jhalcott

carol,
A 240 gr bullet from a t/c 14" 44 mag will do 1750 fps. jh

jh

I get 1600 fps through my chrono and I'm loading the nosler 240 gr and I'm just a 1/2 gr under max. This is out of a 14" TC. My Lyman book lists max loads that go maybe 1620 fps tops out of a TC 14". Is that 1750 fps an actual velocity reading of yours?

myronman3 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 17, 2003, 03:02:20 PM »

wd45 - i was hoping that was humor! i agree with you on the 44 vrs 45. you have to handload (or pay casull prices) to get what the 45 offers. and most 45 ammo over the shelf is about cowboy levels. if i had to pick only one it would be the 44 mag.

hunt4570 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 14, 2003, 01:32:15 PM »

wd45...My handgun will hit 6x6 steel plates at 200yds consistantly all day,I do it all the time.As for a straight wall I'd go 45/70.SGB

kciH · « **Reply #22 on:** November 14, 2003, 10:07:10 PM »

With all the talk of these big bore revolver rounds, buffalo cartridges, and wanting flat trajectory, the .357 Max is the clear choice in a 14" TC with the 180gr Hornady SSP bullet that is purpose designed for the velocities it will be used at. It's still going over 1400fps at 200 yards with sufficient energy for a clean kill, I'd still want a broadside shot at that distance. Zeroed at 150 yards, it's about 5-6" low at 200 yards and never exceeds 3" above line of sight. Couple that with moa accuracy and moderate recoil and there is no other straight walled round that gives it any competition, unless it's a .375 Winchester, but even that doesn't shoot as flat, and it kicks a bit more. A 14" TC with a 2x or 4x Leupold is a not that much of a load to carry in the field, certainly no worse than a long barrel revolver with optics that are needed for shooting beyond 50-100 yards. The only catch is that you have to be a handloader to utilize this round to it's full potential. If you shoot silhouettes, you know how effective this round is.

AA1680, Lil'gun, H4227, H110, all work well in this cartridge and will get you 1900-2000+ fps with the 180gr SSP.

daddywpb · « **Reply #23 on:** November 15, 2003, 04:54:48 AM »

My vote is for the 45 Long Colt.

S.B. · « **Reply #24 on:** November 15, 2003, 12:02:01 PM »

Personally, I'd use my .44 629. Mostly because I already own it and have shot it enough to know where I stand with this combination. As far as distance limitations, don't ever shoot farther than you can make the shot for sure. If you can shoot at a paper plate and hit it every time at 140 yards your a better man than I "Gunga Din". More realisticlly I would stay to about 75 yards and be sure of taking home some bacon, with any of the calibers mentioned.

S.B. · « **Reply #25 on:** November 16, 2003, 12:06:23 PM »

Just what powder and how much of it are you using to get 1750fps from your .44 mag pistol? I've never owned a T/C or a pistol with a barrel this long, but your getting about 400fps more with it than I've been able to get from my wheel guns in the last 25 years. Are your velocities published or clocked? You evidently have wider experience with exotic calibers (.358jdj) than I do. If your pistol is sighted at 100 yards where does that put it for the first line of sight crossing or for 25 yards and under that whitetails are usually encountered?

Hub · « **Reply #26 on:** November 17, 2003, 05:06:34 AM »

44 Mag....nuff said

hubcap · « **Reply #27 on:** February 20, 2004, 10:49:18 PM »

If you can manage it. (no flame intended) the 444 is hands down the ctg. for your given circumstances. It will shoot flatter than any of the other cartridges suggested and with more thump than nearly all of them. I've taken deer with mine in an Encore and it was a real thrill. Shoot straight, and good luck.

444encore · « **Reply #28 on:** February 21, 2004, 01:36:46 PM »

Hubcap,
I second that motion. However , as a side note , it should be mentioned
that some of the hotter loads for the .444Marlin can nearly exceed the reasonable velocities for average pistol bullets. While I've never had a bullet vaporize out of the barrel, I have had them break apart on game which doesn't seem to help penetration much. So my suggestion would be to stay away from the heavy loads with faster burning powders such as H4198 for hunting.
H4895, even in max loads seem's to keep the velocity within reason
and also offers superior accuracy.

hubcap · « **Reply #29 on:** February 21, 2004, 02:43:08 PM »

Ashamed to say, but I used a factory Rem. 240 gr.load to kill my buck. Busted front shoulder and found mushroomed perfectly just under skin on opposite side. Good performance, but still wish I'd used a cast bullet I'd made myself. Oh well, maybe this year.