Author Topic: Don't ask, don't tell...  (Read 946 times)

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Offline ironglow

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Don't ask, don't tell...
« on: October 11, 2009, 02:24:14 AM »
  BO wants to take the "Don't ask, don't tell" garbage a bit farther....
     ..More like.."go ahead and brag about it !".
 
   Wonder how they will arrange showers & latrines ? Maybe..Men, Women & Neither.

       ....Or..Men, Women & Other...?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Tommyt

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2009, 02:34:19 AM »
The longer he's on board the more
I believe the Larry Sinclair story

Offline ms

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2009, 03:01:18 AM »
By him doing this he's putting gays in harms way.

Offline kynardsj

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2009, 03:05:39 AM »
Maybe they could hit the bad guys with their digital or desert camo purse.
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Offline powderman

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2009, 03:22:23 AM »
A few years back there was a letter in the local paper about these deviants in our military. Evidently there are clubs on base at Ft Knox to have a good time. A soldier complained that he took his wife and children to one of them and was dancing with his wife. Several queer couples came in and started dancing and swapping spit right in front of his children. He took his family and left, as did several other families. No reason for that crap. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:(
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Offline Questor

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2009, 05:09:07 AM »
I've always wondered how having gay people in a unit affects estprit de corps. It seems to me that a don't ask don't tell approach makes sense because one can be gay without drawing attention to onesself. A more open policy seems like it would cause the kinds of problems that women in combat cause, but without the 10% pregnancy rate. I wonder if being openly gay in the military would be like being openly gay in prison.



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Offline BBF

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2009, 05:29:27 AM »
Dunno!!
Watching my A$$ not getting shot would be enough worry for me without taking care of that other problem >:(
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Offline crustaceous

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2009, 05:32:06 AM »
The armed forces are often at the forefront of social change. This could be another disaster just like integrated troops.

Offline mirage1988

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2009, 05:46:18 AM »
The armed forces are often at the forefront of social change. This could be another disaster just like integrated troops.

Good one crusty- Only you could make the connection between race integration and homo integration in the military.  >:(  

    (I bet there will be a lot more soap wasted in the showers)

Offline Casull

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2009, 06:43:44 AM »
Quote
The armed forces are often at the forefront of social change.


BS, the armed forces are seldom at the forefront of social change (nor should they be).  BTW, race and sexual deviancy have nothing in common.   >:(
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Online Dee

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2009, 07:18:28 AM »
I think you guys missed crustaceous' point entirely.
Allow me. What I think he is saying is: Folks used to say that you should never have mixed companies, platoons, barracks ect, in regards to blacks and whites, and that it would never work. They could not be trained together, housed together, nor were they capable of fighting together. WELL THEY WERE WRONG. It has now been working for years.
He isn't saying that black-white vs gay straight is the same in all aspects. What he is saying is it MIGHT work.
The vikings took queers along using them for entertainment, and nurses.
AND! Some tribes of American Indians did also. Many "queer Indians" actually wore dresses made of buckskin or what ever material was customary with that tribe, and there are examples of the clothing in museums.
Am "I" advocating that it is a good idea. Hell no! They give me the creeps, and I view them as health hazards BUT! I am just saying it is nothing new. The only people that can really stop this is the VOLUNTARY ARMY ITSELF.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2009, 08:18:23 AM »
I spent 20 years in the Air Force.  During that time I knew many guy people, both male and female.  Everyone usually knew who they were.  They kept to themselves, or with their own kind, and we never had a major problem.  Oh every once in a while a drunk would decide to kick one's butt, but he was usually shut down before it got out of hand.  I am still around the military daily since my wife works on Ft Wainwright, and we live in a military bedroom community.  One third of my neighbors in this subdivision are active duty.

Near the end of my career I was sent by the commander to straighten out the funds management office.  In that office I had only one troop that I could depend on.  A young Sargent that really knew his job, and was a hard worker.  I and no one else ever suspected him of being gay.  Someone at his last base turned him in, and our First Sargent decided to Court Marshal him.  I personally felt the First Sargent was going a little overboard, the young man only had 60 days left in the AF, and no one else in the Squadron knew about it but him and I.  I also needed this young NCO to help bring me up to speed on what the job in this office fully entailed.  No way I could talk the 1st Sgt into just letting it ride till he was gone.   

I sent the young NCO to talk to the Defense Attorney, he recommended taking an Article-15 non-judiciary punishment, in lieu of a Court Marshal.  1st Sgt was furious with me, but at least I was able to use him till he was sent home.  The conditions of the Article-15 were 60 days restriction to base. Reduction of two grades, and forfeiture of pay and allowances.

On his last day this now young Airman came to me saying when he out processed through finance they gave him a big check for back pay.  And at the personnel office his discharge said he was a Sargent.  At both places he tried to explain they had made a mistake, but the people refused to listen, saying their records showed him as a Sargent, and that he was owed back pay.  I told him thanks for all the help you have given me, there is the door, just quietly fade away.  He did, right straight into an appointment to Oxford Law School.

I was in the personnel office a few days later checking on my own retirement.  I stopped in at the separations office and in a friendly conversation I just asked about his case.  I mentioned he was my best worker, and was just curious about what had happened his last days.  The Senior Airman I was talking to turned and asked another Airman about the case.  The second Airman picked up a bunch of folders from his basket, and kept repeating the name.  Then from the bottom he pulled the folder, read the contents, then said "Oh well this guy is gone, the paperwork never caught up with him before he was discharged".  "Too late now".  Then he dropped the folder into the trash.  As I was turning to leave the Senior Airman at the counter leaned forward and in a low voice said, "We take care of our own".  I never would have imagined that those two guys were gay.

So like I said before they are already there, and in most cases are known.  So it will not be a big deal for the people in the military.  They will continue on just the same with very little disruption.   

One more thing, when I was a young NCO myself I remember how the Senior NCOs talked about gays in the military.  They were always making crude jokes and comments.  But one thing they could not understand was why the civilian world had so much trouble with it, especially since they did not.
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Offline torpedoman

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2009, 09:54:05 AM »
I knew some guys in the navy for 20 years and never seen them with a girl or heard of them having a girl friend , I have no idea if they were gay or not but they all did a fine job.
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Online Dee

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2009, 11:22:47 AM »
I think that was crustaceous's point. I have met queers that were like able enough folks. I didn't want to run around with them, and I didn't and still don't approve of their life style. BUT! As long as they don't flaunt it in front of me, who the hell cares.
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Offline rockbilly

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2009, 03:02:44 PM »
It is not conducive to good moral and creates a hostile work/living environment for the gays and those who oppose them.  I worked many gays in the military, most were shunned to a large extent by the straight troops and wwere often exposed to violence as a result of their life style.  I worked with one openly gay female for almost three years, she eventually managed to retire as a Master Sergeant, she was a darn good aircraft hydraulics technician but a big time trouble maker who hit on every new female assigned to the unit.

Questor.  I retired from the Air Force then spent 26 years as a civilian in a position where I supervised 75-100 military personnel.  During this period I was well versed in the Manual for Courts Martial (UCMJ).  There were no provisions for reducing a person’s rank or imposing a fine with a “letter of reprimand,.”   The lowest level at which an individual could be reduced and/or fined was a Summery Courts Martial.

Offline slim rem 7

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2009, 03:24:57 PM »
 well it use to be you would be given a discharge.. myself i thought it gave to much opportunity to blackmail our service men if an enemy wanted to.. now the attitude is different ,so it may not be a factor anymore.. i don t know..slim
 im not the judge of those things and i think i know who is.. i know hes a very benevolent father..
 so im glad its his job to judge ,,an i can just knowum an loveum as fellow children of the father..slim

Offline beerbelly

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2009, 03:30:32 PM »
Well a long time ago when I was in the United States Marine Corps, we did not tolerate Queers. I still don't. Sounds to me like some of you dudes just might swing both ways when no one is looking! ;)
                                  Beerbelly

Offline crustaceous

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2009, 04:01:21 PM »
Staff Sgt. Eric Alva was the first American to be wounded in war in Iraq. On March 21, 2003 Alva stepped on a landmine, sustaining heavy injuries to his leg. It couldn't be saved and was amputated. Alva was medically discharged and awarded a Purple Heart.
On February 28, 2007, Staff Sgt. Alva, Rep. Christopher Shays, R-4th District and Martin Meehan, D-Mass. and another 107 House members introduced legislation that would repeal the 'don't ask, don't tell' policy against gays in the military.
Alva told Congress, "I'm an American who fought for his country. Who'd have ever guessed the first American wounded was a gay Marine."

Offline slim rem 7

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2009, 04:09:51 PM »
 i ll be honest with you beerbelly ,,i love you as a fellow creation of my father..
 if we met ,i might not like you much ... but you still his child an my brother ..
 at least thats the way i see it. have a good evening brother ..slim

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 04:27:21 PM »
Rockbilly:  Now that you mention it, I stand corrected.  It was not a letter of reprimand the young NCO got.  It was an Article-15, Non-judiciary punishment.  Don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that this morning.

Not only was I his Supervisor, but my wife was the one that processed the Article-15.  She was NCOIC of Military Justice at Eielson AFB at the time. 
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Online Dee

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2009, 04:36:14 PM »
beerbelly with his usual comments I suspect is in possession of a 2 digit IQ with a possible period in between the two very small numbers. He insults where there is no need to insult, most likely because his verbiage skills are extremely limited, and he is, due to this lack in communication skills, incapable of having a civil conversation. He is crude because he doesn't know what else to do. He laughs at his own jokes while everyone else rolls their eyes, and makes excuses to vacate the area he is defiling. He probably fits to a tee his forum handle, and bathes no more than once a month. His service in the Corp was most likely as mascot, in his case an un-house broken bulldog, the dumbest of all breeds.
Redneck would be an elevated status for him, and he probably breaths thru his mouth rather than his nose. It would be easier to tolerate himself that way. Have a nice night beerbelly, and don't forget your worming at the vet clinic in the am, and try not to scratch, or lick yourself in front of the receptionist. ;)
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Offline slim rem 7

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2009, 04:37:24 PM »
 im ashamed to tell this on a fellow sailor... but he went out an got his money for liberty from men that liked men..i toldem one day i didn t think it mattered why he was doing it.. he was still taking a chance that he might come to like it..
 loving an women an being loved by one is as close to heaven as i think you can get here on this earth..
 i think he shoulda been more careful with his core being.. again jmo. alim

Offline Redtail1949

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2009, 04:43:38 PM »
There have been many instances in which a gay soldier has served with distinction and shown bravery through out history in all armies on the earth. Yet, openly gay soldiers, in my opinion, would demoralize the others. Certainly anyone of them that had an open passion for another in a combat zone could risk many lives.

If the policy is kept where it is now it probably would and should be all that is allowed. I can only say that i as a former soldier would have had doubt as to a gay really being up to having my back, no pun intended, in a firefight. Any doubt as to the ability or will of your fellow soldiers to give his life for you can only harm the unit.

As far as blacks or mexicans serving, history has shown that they are as capable as any other race. Many Medal of Honor Recipients are Mexican. There are a few blacks that saved my lilly white you know what several times. I am proud to have served with them and would hesitate to crawl into any hole with them at my back.

The Russians as well as the Germans had women serving in combat units and they were considered to be very tough and fearless at times. I once watched a film of a Russian Woman that was a sniper take out over 80 German Soldiers as they crossed a narrow edge on a cliff. One shot one kill and she was smiling after each shot. I would say she proved her worth without question.

So in my opinion race is a meaningless argument to keep one out of a combat unit. Sexual orientation if kept out of the unit itself and combat areas will work. Openness just can not be permitted.

Offline Casull

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2009, 07:16:52 PM »
Well said, Redtail.
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Offline dukkillr

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2009, 07:41:07 PM »
beerbelly with his usual comments I suspect is in possession of a 2 digit IQ with a possible period in between the two very small numbers. He insults where there is no need to insult, most likely because his verbiage skills are extremely limited, and he is, due to this lack in communication skills, incapable of having a civil conversation. He is crude because he doesn't know what else to do. He laughs at his own jokes while everyone else rolls their eyes, and makes excuses to vacate the area he is defiling. He probably fits to a tee his forum handle, and bathes no more than once a month. His service in the Corp was most likely as mascot, in his case an un-house broken bulldog, the dumbest of all breeds.
Redneck would be an elevated status for him, and he probably breaths thru his mouth rather than his nose. It would be easier to tolerate himself that way. Have a nice night beerbelly, and don't forget your worming at the vet clinic in the am, and try not to scratch, or lick yourself in front of the receptionist. ;)
1) I agree completely
2) He's not alone with the above problems
3) How in the world is the above post not against the rules?  Great post, but gosh...

Offline Big Nasty

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2009, 12:51:07 AM »
OK, it's early and I think beerbelly just called us all fagots. I have three things in this world I can't handle 1) lairs, 2) thieves, 3) fagots, and not necessarily in that order. Beerbelly throw away the gay movie's go buy a model, get a dog well maybe skip the dog, just get a hobby,  being fat, drunk, and stupid is no way of living a life get help... I think a good conservative therapist can help you stay in the closet.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Don't ask, don't tell...
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 12:57:38 AM »
I think this one has gone on long enough so this will be the last post to it as I'm locking it down.

First I'll add my short comment. I really don't much care what two consenting adults do behind closed doors but I do admit to being quite repulsed at it out in the open. I've not been in the military so am not sure the effect gays might have there but I suspect it isn't good at least not if they are open about it.

Still this thread like all such have gotten ugly and it just doesn't seem a subject we can discuss here in a calm and rational manner that the rules here require so we're just not going to discuss it any further.


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