Encore "pistol" frame vs. "rifle" frame?

[bagdadjoe]

   I've been looking at Encores and noticed some ads say "pistol" frame.  Is there some legality about putting a pistol barrel on a rifle frame?  If so, are the rifle frames marked?  Is there a dedicated Encore arm of the ATF that goes about checking these things to make sure you're not lugging around a "short barrelled rifle"?
I've always have Contenders and never worried about it.
thanks in advance! 

[kynardsj]

Was a thread about this recently if you'll check the sections on Contenders and Encores. Seems the Feds in all their wisdom say you can't legally change a rifle to a pistol and vice versa even though the Contenders and Encores were designed to do this.

[bagdadjoe]

thanks....I went to the forum below and, yes, quite a lot of discussion on this..

[Keith L]

The most current information is in the top thread in the stickies (at the top of the forum).  It contains what is apparently the government's current thinking about pistol/rifle exchanges.

FWIW, unless you can document your having one of the original "kits" sold by TC you may need to be aware of potential problems switching with a Contender as well.  Read the thread.

[RMBLON]

If you call TCArms they will mail you a copy of the court decision in favor of TCA on the legality of the pistol and rifle frames being used and changed. As long as you do not put a long stock on a barrel under 16". The Supreme Court said: "With these systems(Encore and Contender) a receiver may be assembled either with a pistol grip and pistol barrel, or with a shoulder stock and rifle barrel(minimum length 16 inches). A barrel under 16 inches in length must never be assembled onto a reciever when the shoulder stock is attached. within that parameter, the consumer may use the parts to make a pistol or carbine, and may change the configuration at will." Quoted from their letter. Seems to be plain as day.

[kynardsj]

Thank you RMBLON, that's good info to know.

[Graybeard]

It's also BAD information based on BATFE rulings. Folks assume too much from the original TC case as it applied ONLY to the kits they were making at that time.

[Keith L]

If you look at the top of the fourm there are "stickies" that stay at the top.  The first one is the most current thread on this topic, and includes documentation from the BATF.  Read it and make up your mind what you want to do.  Following the advice you have just been given may make you the test case for swapping between rifle and pistol with an Encore.  One thing I can guarantee is that it will be the hassle of a lifetime.

[Hopalong7]

      A mean dog don't bite ya when he's sleeping and me thinks we need to let this one sleep .  Walt

[Ladobe]

      A mean dog don't bite ya when he's sleeping and me thinks we need to let this one sleep .  Walt

Ditto that one Walt.   I'll do as I have for the last 42 years with my Contenders and not miss a moments sleep over it.

[teamnelson]

I live in the Kingdom/People's republic of Hawaii where all weapons brought in, even on government orders, have to be registered and entered into the national DB. In a moment of weakness I sold my 45-70 Super 16 carbine, lock, stock and barrel. My last remaining frame is registered as a pistol, and they registered the caliber of the barrels to the frame (but the NDB entry only has room for one caliber is what they told me). They check registration at the range; I got a .32mag barrel after I registered and the range officers let that slide. But even if I got another rifle barrel, I'd need to find a new frame for it that IF it was already registered in the NDB would have to have been a rifle, or find one that isn't in the NDB, then register it as a rifle, to use that barrel. Fair and reasonable gun laws from the supposed land of our leader's birth.

[expeditionx]

I live in the Kingdom/People's republic of Hawaii where all weapons brought in, even on government orders, have to be registered and entered into the national DB.

What national database are you refering to?

[expeditionx]

If you call TCArms they will mail you a copy of the court decision in favor of TCA on the legality of the pistol and rifle frames being used and changed. As long as you do not put a long stock on a barrel under 16". The Supreme Court said: "With these systems(Encore and Contender) a receiver may be assembled either with a pistol grip and pistol barrel, or with a shoulder stock and rifle barrel(minimum length 16 inches). A barrel under 16 inches in length must never be assembled onto a reciever when the shoulder stock is attached. within that parameter, the consumer may use the parts to make a pistol or carbine, and may change the configuration at will." Quoted from their letter. Seems to be plain as day.

I know for a fact that their customer service people is instructing customers to do exactly what is illegal to do
with any other pistol or rifle. If I did as they said (if I did not know any better), and then got arrested, TC would have
a serious lawsuit and likely pay out a mountain of money. Lets just say that they would be totally liable for legal
misinterpretations.  As far as the Feds, there are plenty of unconstitutional things that the Federal Government does on a regular
basis and most people don't care and will not question. The gray areas that cross the line regarding any amendment are determined
by courts and agencies of the government. Unfortunately, the ATF has the job of determining  any gun legal issue that is not specifically
spelled out. Somehow certain people got it in their head that the TC Supreme Court case was about granting new rights to
gun owners.  Sorry folks. Not everyone drank the cool aid. TC went to court over the right to sell a kit. The court ruled in favor
of allowing TC to sell the kit. That is it. The court did not argue what all Mr. Jones can and cannot do with all his guns.
It's better to clearly know what your government will lock you up for, then to live in an imaginary demension where
ignorance is bliss and lack of good judgement may result in prison sodomy at Club Fed.

[teamnelson]

It was explained to me by one of the officers in the registration dept that Hawaii is one of several states that mutually share firearms information. Hawaii is also in favor of a singular national DB, so their processes are patterned as if it was in place already. So its not currently a single DB per se, but a connection of multiple DBs. He told me that some day when the single db is in place, we'll be able to register it once, then when I move I just check into the local PD at my new place and they can pull over all the records, just like that. Wouldn't that be great?  

[expeditionx]

It was explained to me by one of the officers in the registration dept that Hawaii is one of several states that mutually share firearms information. Hawaii is also in favor of a singular national DB, so their processes are patterned as if it was in place already. So its not currently a single DB per se, but a connection of multiple DBs. He told me that some day when the single db is in place, we'll be able to register it once, then when I move I just check into the local PD at my new place and they can pull over all the records, just like that. Wouldn't that be great?  

A national database is not a desireable thing with most gun owners. It can be used against gun owners.
My state requires no registration and I am fine with that. A 4473 form background check is all that is required
in many states. If a national database were established, what would stop antigun politicians from requiring
that you pay $1000 per year per gun to stay legal as a way to discourage gun ownership?

[Keith L]

If you call TCArms they will mail you a copy of the court decision in favor of TCA on the legality of the pistol and rifle frames being used and changed. As long as you do not put a long stock on a barrel under 16". The Supreme Court said: "With these systems(Encore and Contender) a receiver may be assembled either with a pistol grip and pistol barrel, or with a shoulder stock and rifle barrel(minimum length 16 inches). A barrel under 16 inches in length must never be assembled onto a reciever when the shoulder stock is attached. within that parameter, the consumer may use the parts to make a pistol or carbine, and may change the configuration at will." Quoted from their letter. Seems to be plain as day.

You don't need to contact TC.  Search the web and it pops up quite easily.  Also several explanations pop up that may or may not be reality.

Read the decision, read the letter from BATF, then decide what you want to do.

[RMBLON]

Of the ones that have a copy of the BATF letter, have you sent a copy to TCArms and ask for their comments. Please share with us or if it hasn't been done I will try to copy the letter and contact TCArms. They still are informing the public, it is completely legal to change back and forth at your wants.

[expeditionx]

have you sent a copy to TCArms and ask for their comments.

 They still are informing the public, it is completely legal to change back and forth at your wants.

No copy has been sent. It most likely will not change a thing. Feel free to send a copy of the one posted.
I would be very curious what response they will give. I challenge them to get any verification directly from
the Feds that supports their claim other than some attorney's individual determination that is not accepted
by the agencies that dress in alphabet letters.

As stated before, I know from having emailed and spoken to a customer service rep that their position
is how you say it is, but their position is in conflict with the government's position which automatically
outrank's their position.