Just one very simple question

[nealglen37]

Just one very simple question. Do you wish the south had won the war?

[hillbill]

hmmm, very good question.it would of set industry and also the civil rights movement back about 100 yrs.im not sure the firearms industry would be as advanced.mules would be cheaper. thats a good thing.cotton would be the predominate fiber.we would prob have more freedom, but then maybe not as the south was predominately dem.havent really made up my mind about this

[subdjoe]

This can only be aswered, yes, or maybe no. Or maybe maybe.   If the deep, or lower, south had been allowed to just leave the Union, there would have been no war in the first place.  The states of the upper south would likely have stayed in the Union (one result of which would be no state of West Virginia).  The US government would have been forced to find some other source of revenue to finance work on ports, roads, rail, and industry in the north. 

Likely slavery would have died out in the US (including the upper south), by the mid-1880s, and because of social and economic pressure, about 20 years later in the deep south. Every other nation managed to abolish slavery without a major war, so there is no reason that it would not have happened here.

Because it would have died a natural death rather than forced at the point of the bayonet, race relations would be much better.  Remember, blacks and whites mixed much more easily in the south than they did in the north. 

There would have been at least 600,000 men who were not killed in the service of their countires.  And untold numbers of southern civilians (I keep digging, and not finding any consistant numbers of civilian casulties - my guess is that Sherman alone was responsible for several tens of thousands, if not over a hundred thousand civilian deaths).  The infrastructure and industry of the south would not have been destroyed.

But then, there would have been two independent nations competing for the center of what we now call the United States.  This may have resutlted in war every few years as territory was openend to white settlement (I wonder if Oregon and I think IL would have had to recind their laws prohibiting free men of colour from settleing in them?). 

If the south had won the war, some of what I wrote above would have happened, obviously depending on just when the victory happened.  If Honest Abe had thrown in the towel right after Manassas, it obviously would be different than after Chancellorsville or Sharpsburg. 

[nealglen37]

We can go back even farther, what if we had never broken away from Britain. Later we would have left British control peacefully like Canda and Australia. However we did not. So again I ask (I ask you this question in 1863) Do you want the north or the south to win.........and your answer is?

[nealglen37]

Sorry Canada

[subdjoe]

I guess, overall, it worked out for the best.

Again, you need to look at when it would have ended. And how it ended. When in 1863?  Before Chancellorsville?  Any time after that, and the industrial north would be out for vengence and blood.  I would say that there would have been almost continuous border incidents and a medium sized war every 20 to 30 years.  so, given a post-Chancellorsville victory, yes, I would say that in terms of economy and life, it was good that Lincoln was able to force the south to rejoin the Union at bayonet point.  (I am going to hedge some more and suggest that anytime after Fredricksburg would have been to late for a peaceful coexistance)

But, if after First Manassas, with its realively light casualtys,  the Federal government had said, 'Screw it, let 'em go to hell in their own way" I think that things could have been easily smoothed out, and friendly relations and trade established.  In that scenario, a Confederate victory would have been good. 

On the other hand, the damage done to the Constitution and the powers and rights of the states by forcing his Hamlitonian version of a single, national, federal government on us rather than retaining a mostly Jeffersonian version of an somewhat loose association of strong states with a weak central government to act as a kind of umpire for the states (or maybe a mommy to make sure they play nice together), kind of makes me wish the South had prevailed.

So, your "very simple question" really isn't. It is almost a 'how high is up?' question. 

[Gary G]

My opinion is that if the south had not allowed themselves to be suckered in to Lincoln's setup at Ft. Sumter, the south would have ultimately won as most northerners did not want to go to war. That being the case, I think slavery would have shortly ended with invention of mechanized harvesters, states rights would have prevailed, the federal reserve would not have been created, there would not have been a great depression, nor the depression that we are entering into now, our money would be stable, we would not have been in WWI (so probably no Hitler) and no WWII, no communist China (japan would have prevented that happening) resulting in no Korean War and no Vietnam. But most of all, we would still have liberty and freedom rather than regulation, taxation, and limitation.

Not only us, but the world would be better off.

[rio grande]

Well, who knows how things would have turned out - but I think it would have been better if the South could have gone it's way.
We did have a right to secede.  What Lincoln did was wrong.
So I do wish we would have won.

[Duke0313]

Not just no, but HELL NO! Now, I'm a Southerner (Texan) and I'm real proud of that, but...any cause that in any way promotes the institution of slavery is not a just cause and is doomed to fail. I love the South, I love Southern folks and I love the Southern way of life, but anytime one man presumes to own another man, he has set himself up for judgment.
You can argue politics, economics, or fanasylands all day long, but as long as slavery is a part of the equation...my answer will forever remain...NO!!!

P.S...I'm so "white bread" my a$$ cries out for peanut butter.

[subdjoe]

Not just no, but HELL NO! Now, I'm a Southerner (Texan) and I'm real proud of that, but...any cause that in any way promotes the institution of slavery is not a just cause and is doomed to fail. I love the South, I love Southern folks and I love the Southern way of life, but anytime one man presumes to own another man, he has set himself up for judgment.
You can argue politics, economics, or fanasylands all day long, but as long as slavery is a part of the equation...my answer will forever remain...NO!!!

P.S...I'm so "white bread" my a$$ cries out for peanut butter.

Well, then, the north also was "not a just cause and is doomed to fail."  Slavery was not just a southern institution.  Look at who financed and made the most money on the slave trade.  Look at when abolition was introduced in the northern state - not very long before the ACW.  And the slave holders in the north had the chance to sell their slaves south before abolishing slavery.  Slavery was dying out in the upper south, and soon would have died in the lower south. Again, every other western nation managed to abolish slavery without a war.  And, again, slavery was not the only reason for the war.  The real trigger for it was the northern ports and merchant lines starting to lose trade to the low tariff deep south.  Until they saw what would happen to revenue, they seemed quite happy to let the south go.

[SHOOTALL]

To be blunt hell yes !

[nealglen37]

to the people who answered yes..........................do you conisder yourself a southerner under occupation....or a United States citizen?

[squirrellluck]

Yes I wish the south had won We didnt I cant speak for all southerners but I am an American. I believe a lot of us southerners  have or are serving in the armed services That alone speaks to what we consider ourselves to be

[SouthernByGrace]

Hey Guys! Sorry to have been missing so much lately, but I've been busy with finals in college and that had to be my priority for a couple of weeks. But the finals are over for now (I got straight A's),     and I have a couple of weeks before the next quarter starts, so I'm back for a bit.

nealglen37, this is a great thread. It's interesting to read what the folks have to say and how they have answered your question. Here's my input...

The thing you are forgetting is that, by seceding, the Southern States were trying to PRESERVE the America that the forefathers created. Had the South won the war, or had the South been allowed to separate peacefully, ALL Southerners would have Remained Americans. The United States would have been in such dire straights financially, they would have done just about Anything to bring about Re-Unification. I believe the C.S. and the U.S. would have turned out to be the Greatest of Allies. Look at the U.S. and Great Britain. That alliance took hold almost immediately after the U.S. seceded from British rule. The North & South would have had to remain allies for their own security.

To answer your question, I would say unequivocally, YES! I wish the South had won the war. Moreover, I wish the South had been allowed a peaceful separation, instead of the carnage that unfolded at the hands of the military of the United States Government. Having said that, I believe the question of my citizenship remains two-fold.

You see, what most people never stop to realize is that the Confederate States of America was NEVER dissolved. It has only been inactive, albeit for 150 years, it still exists to this day. There was never a formal end to the war, only a cessation of hostilities. A peace treaty was never signed by either side. One was never even Proposed. General Lee did NOT surrender the entire Confederate Army at Appomattox; he only surrendered those under his own immediate command. He didn't have the authority to surrender the entire Army. That's why he didn't.

I got off track a bit, so to get back to the citizenship question... I am a citizen of the Confederate States of America FIRST, but in the absence of any active government, I have no choice but to act as a citizen of an occupied nation. That makes me have to abide by the laws of the U.S., whether I like it or not. Until an active government is reinstated for the CSA to function properly, I remain a citizen of the US. So I maintain dual citizenship.

When I filled out my 1990 census forms, I was asked my nationality. My answer was simply Occupied Confederate Southerner. By the laws governing the census, if 3 or more people enter a race or nationality other than those readily recognized by the government, those people have then become an official minority group under US law. 

Having said all that, I must add that I believe whole-heartedly that Reunification would have been inevitable in the long run. From every expert source I can muster, I believe the the US and CS would have reunited by WWI, if for no other reason but out the necessity of protection on each side. Had that been the case, I believe the United States would be a much leaner nation today, learning from the mistakes of the past. The US would be a much Stronger nation and her economy would be envied the world over. I don't think racism or sectionalism would be as rampant today, either. I believe the war would have been much easier to put in the past and keep it there, because I think both sides would have learned a great deal from the separation.  After all, absence makes the heart grow fonder.

Sorry to babble like this, but your question can not have a simple yes or no answer. A little detail is called for. I hope I have given that detail so it can be easily understood. Anyway, I was makin' up for lost time...

Great discussion fellas. Y'all keep those answers coming.

SBG

DEO VINDICE

 

[Dixie Dude]

I think, like someone said, slavery would have been done away with, replaced with the sharecropper system that replaced it after the war and mechanization which later replaced sharecroppers. 

[SHOOTALL]

nealglen37 , no I consider myself an American and am proud to be so . I do consider myself a Southerner and also am both proud and glad .
What I see is a country made up of very different people with different interest, backgrounds , needs , ethics etc . I see a Federal Govt. trying to take over what states should adminster . The state is closer to the people and in most cases centralized to the needs of the people . The Fed is trying to make us all need , want , act etc in the same way . Our fore fathers tried to protect us from this but since the 30's some have been hell bent to screw it up . I would hope a Southern USA might have been more receptive to its citizens than what we have trying to engineer us into what a few think we should be .

[nealglen37]

Southern by grace...........I do respect your feelings.........and your arguments are well thought out (congradulations on the A in your classes (you didn't by chance use any Yankee pell grant money did you)?

I appologize........that was a cheap shot. I am old enough to know know no goverment.north...... south...........east ......or west.........is that great. Governments are run by men........all men are flawed.........it started with the first bite from the apple........and has been downhill from then on.

[SHOOTALL]

No the South has its problems also , Jimmy Carter comes to mind . But then yankees voted him in !

[Gary G]

Yes I wish the south had won We didnt I cant speak for all southerners but I am an American. I believe a lot of us southerners  have or are serving in the armed services That alone speaks to what we consider ourselves to be

The United States was a union of states as was the confederacy a confederacy of states. If you asked someone in the early nineteenth century, he would answer "I'm a Virginian or a Tennessean. The idea of nationalism probably came into play here as an influence of Karl Marx whose doctrines required a strong concept of nationalism. With the "progressive" Wilson in office and his war, came the call for "be an American". The neo-conservative movement has taken over the republican party and has pushed nationalism. They are quite different from the "Old Right", which was more like our founding fathers. This is an interesting subject. I wish I knew more.

[nealglen37]

Just Imagine how nuts things would be if states had stronger rights than our centralized Governmet. Each state would have its own military...the army of Iowa might attack the army of Nebraska...........Ohio might attack New york. You could not leave the border of your state, and enter a new state without a passport. You could only use Florida currancy in Florida............if you went to Georgia you would have to use Georgia currancy.

[Cabin4]

I would say that I wish the South would have been able to successfully secede. War was not necessary for this to happen. That was Lincoln's illegal rampage that turned it into a war. However, since war was the reality, the answer is clearly yes, I wish the South would have won. But let's not mistake the South winning with the evaporation of the remaining northern Union. The south was only interested in repelling the Union army from Confederate territory. So the North would have continued to be the Union if the south would have prevailed.

It is an interesting proposition to think about what it would be like if the south would have been successful. Instead, we get to ponder and argue the so called merits of northern aggression and false history books our public education system shoves down our children’s throats.

[Cabin4]

Just Imagine how nuts things would be if states had stronger rights than our centralized Governmet.

Under our constitution states do have more rights and authority than the federal government. The reason if feels different and this is reversed today, is because our federal government has granted itself authority not supported by the constitution. Our federal government has become illegal.

[Gary G]

Just Imagine how nuts things would be if states had stronger rights than our centralized Governmet. Each state would have its own military...the army of Iowa might attack the army of Nebraska...........Ohio might attack New york. You could not leave the border of your state, and enter a new state without a passport. You could only use Florida currancy in Florida............if you went to Georgia you would have to use Georgia currancy.

Nah. It would be just the opposite. It is the nationalistic countries that always go to war. Switzerland is a confederation of states and it has been 200 years since they have been involved in war.

[nealglen37]

I disagree, the thing that has protected the swiss are it's Alps............thats the same reason we will have a hard time in Afganistan............it's hard to fight in the middle of the Hindu cush mountain range.

[subdjoe]

Just Imagine how nuts things would be if states had stronger rights than our centralized Governmet. Each state would have its own military...the army of Iowa might attack the army of Nebraska...........Ohio might attack New york. You could not leave the border of your state, and enter a new state without a passport. You could only use Florida currancy in Florida............if you went to Georgia you would have to use Georgia currancy.

No, read the Constitution.  That is covered.  The federal government was ther to make sure the states played nice.   Can you present any cases of it happening before the ACW? Why would everything have suddenly changed if the South had won?  Or been allowed to leave peacefully?  How about you drop the alarmist rhetoric and stick to historic fact. 

[subdjoe]

Nah. It would be just the opposite. It is the nationalistic countries that always go to war. Switzerland is a confederation of states and it has been 200 years since they have been involved in war.

To which nealglen37  responded:
Insert Quote
I disagree, the thing that has protected the swiss are it's Alps............thats the same reason we will have a hard time in Afganistan............it's hard to fight in the middle of the Hindu cush mountain  region"


Read what Gary G wrote, not what you think he wrote.  Before Honest Abe created an overly powerful federal government, we only went to war with other nations when they attacked us.  After it starting in the late 1800s whe have had a war about every 20 years or so. 

The Alps, and the fighting spirit of the Swiss, is why they have never been conquered, which is NOT the same as not going to war. 

[AtlLaw]

Just Imagine how nuts things would be if states had stronger rights than our centralized Governmet.

Um... well... uh, they do...    Now I don't specialise in Constitutional law, but as I remember it's kinda basic that the only authority the federal gov't has was that delegated by the States.

Each state would have its own military...

Um... well... uh, they do...    Each state has it's own National Guard.  It has it's own commander and is only subject to the Governor unless federalized.  Remember, the governor can send the NG into an area of, for example,  civil unrest, but the fed. gov't cannot send federal troops into a state.  Well, there is a declaration of marshall law but if that happens our Constitution is gone or at least in such peril that my oath to protect it from all enemys, foreign or DOMESTIC has kicked in.

the army of Iowa might attack the army of Nebraska...........Ohio might attack New york. You could not leave the border of your state, and enter a new state without a passport. You could only use Florida currancy in Florida............if you went to Georgia you would have to use Georgia currancy.

Maybe our own version of the Euro?    

[nealglen37]

Hey Sub joe........you said the Federal government was there to make sure evryone played nice...............and if they did not play nice what then? If the federal government is not powerfull you get this.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkanization

As for the fighting spirit of the swiss............if the Alps had not been in the way...Hitler would have rolled over them in WW II.


 I think every county in each state should have the right to succed from it's state.

[nealglen37]

By the way I don't read Gary G..........although I must admit he does play a mean flute.

[nealglen37]

These guys put it to rest..............why can't you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzOAbekZoOc&feature=related