Author Topic: 454 Casull and barrel length....recommendations???? (Read 3600 times)

drdougrx · « **on:** September 06, 2009, 03:22:34 AM »

Having a conversation with some of the gunshop experts about the 454 casull. I'm thinking of a new single action project to build a back-up, woods walker, close range close hunting revolver for bears and hogs. The experts tell me that I need no less than 6 or 8" of barrel or all I have is really loud 45colt. This can't be true!

Do you think a 5" barrel and heavy bullets will give me the punch that the casull is known for, or do I have to go to a 6 or greater barrel?

I appreciate any opinions.

MePlat · « **Reply #1 on:** September 06, 2009, 03:44:29 AM »

Experts seem to crawl out of the woodwork at times.
I am NO expert but do have a 71/2 inch and a 43/4 inch and factory loads in the 43/4 inch will run 1500 or so in 300 gr weight. 340 gr cast will run 1450 0r so in the 43/4 inch. If that is a 45 Colt then it is a custom 5 shot gun to take the loads.
The 71/2 inch will do 1600 or so with 300 gr factory loads.
These are actual chronoed figures not some pulled out of the air.
I also had a 10 inch that wasn't much faster than the 71/2 incher.
This is info that you can use anyway you want. Listen to it, ignore it, or listen to an "expert" since I am not one.

drdougrx · « **Reply #2 on:** September 06, 2009, 06:06:14 AM »

Thanks MePlat....that's GREAT information! I'm kinda thinking the shorter barrel because it will be more handy.

BigMuddy · « **Reply #3 on:** September 06, 2009, 06:23:49 AM »

What MePlat said +1

Any "expert" that thinks a short (4 3/4") 454 is just a loud 45, has not fired one!

irold · « **Reply #4 on:** September 06, 2009, 03:29:16 PM »

Food for thought.....a longer barrel would hold the 454 down some. My 7 1/2 ", SRH 454 DOES come back and up with full house loads. Not sure I'd want any less barrel. But thats only me........btw , I'm not recoil shy. regards

drdougrx · « **Reply #5 on:** September 06, 2009, 03:39:18 PM »

Good point i...I've had about 5 or six guns MagNaPorted, three 44 mag revolvers that I can remember and found that helps muzzle flip alot, BUT, I've never MagNaPorted a barrel less than 6". I'll need to think on that but will consider it.

MePlat · « **Reply #6 on:** September 06, 2009, 04:26:22 PM »

Remember I am no expert. I am not the best shot. I have handguns far more powerful than the 454. If you can shoot a 71/2 incher you can shoot a 43/4 incher.
The recoil difference is so small that it is near nothing.
Now with that said if you let your mind make a mountain out of a mole hill the difference will be much greater than it really is.
Neither of my 454's are ported, muzzle braked etc..
If you have a problem with a 43/4 inch gun you will have a problem with a 454 Casull period.
Just remember I am no expert but just though I would throw that in before you let the grimlin of the "over thinking mind" start up.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #7 on:** September 07, 2009, 12:53:50 AM »

Ive found with really stout loads my 4 5/8s big guns tend to have less felt recoil then the long barreled ones. Im not sure but my guess is that because the barrel is shorter the bullet spends less time in the barrel and that reduces muzzle flip.

Swampman · « **Reply #8 on:** September 07, 2009, 01:04:29 AM »

Me too Lloyd.

drdougrx · « **Reply #9 on:** September 07, 2009, 03:09:24 AM »

HUH....that's really intersting. As I write this I'm thinking that all the revolvers that I had MagNaPorted were their customs.......

I'm going to look for a good price on a used BH and have it built I think!

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #10 on:** September 08, 2009, 02:47:00 AM »

As others have said, there is little difference in velocity and recoil. Build or buy the barrel length you feel most comfortable carrying, and the one you can hit best with. I use a 4 3/4", a 6" and a scoped Mag-na-ported 71/2" in .454.
Personally, I would not M-N-P an iron sighted gun. The crud builds up on the front sight base and can be a nuisance to remove, particularly if cast bullets are used and the user engages in long shooting sessions. My scoped FA's have no front sight, with one exception, so this is not a problem with the ones that are M-N-P'd.

One further comment: despite what the advertising might lead you to believe, a Mag-na- ported .454 will drop ~100-150 fps vs a non-M-N-P'd gun with equal barrel lengths. Cronies and I have tested it thoroughly.

odoh · « **Reply #11 on:** September 08, 2009, 01:39:52 PM »

Interesting ~

Upon having my 454 re-barrelled, I opt to go w/o the magnaport ~ don't miss it at all. I did stick w/the 7.5" configuration tho.

drdougrx · « **Reply #12 on:** September 08, 2009, 04:11:52 PM »

so today I e-mail Garry Reeder and asked about building me a 454. He said that it would recoil alot and that I'd likely have some trouble with follow-up shots. He recommended the 510GNR in that it hit harder and recoiled less. I'll need to forward the text of the e-mail from work to here tomorrow and I'll post it FYI. I thanked him for being kind enough to reply to my inquiry and as always, I appeciate all of your input as well.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #13 on:** September 08, 2009, 11:45:06 PM »

ive never shot the gnr so i really cant say but i chuckle at guys who say the 454 or even the 475 kick less then a 500 linebaugh. Maybe at low pressures but if you stand on that 50 its going to kick. Full power loads in my 500s are in a differnt league then the 454 or 475 at full power. Its just common sense. Load a 450 grain bullet to 1300 fps in the .50s and then load a 400 grain bullet to 1300 fps in the 475 and which do you think is going to kick more! Granted they all recoil substaintaily but after shooting a full power 475 or 500 the 454 feels mild to me. Neat thing is with any one of these is you dont have to run full power loads to hunt any animal. A heavy for caliber bullet at 1200 fps in any of the three will take any game animal on the planet and not peel skin off your hand or put a sight blade in the top of your noggin!

drdougrx · « **Reply #14 on:** September 09, 2009, 12:04:29 PM »

....sometimes I think I could benefit from a site blade in the noggin....

And...I'm not crazy about a non-standard cartridge...not that there's anything at all wrong with one.....

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #15 on:** September 09, 2009, 03:51:18 PM »

Quote from: drdougrx on September 09, 2009, 12:04:29 PM

....sometimes I think I could benefit from a site blade in the noggin.... :

You'll feel different about that if you ever put one there.

Racer X · « **Reply #16 on:** September 13, 2009, 02:12:15 PM »

DrDougRx,

Since you are in the market for a custom gun, have you considered a 45 Colt w/ a 5 shot custom cylinder? Since reading your post, I referred back to my Hamilton Bowen "Customer Revolver" book. According to him, a custom 5 shot 45 Colt is capable of handling ~ 90-95% of the chamber pressure of a 454. However, he states that the 454's incremental 5-10% pressure is exponentially harder on the gun.

A 5 shot 45 Colt conversion on a standard Blackhawk frame can hurl a 300 to 350 bullet at 1400 to 1500 FPS, which is nothing to sneeze at. Also, 45 Colt brass is is much cheaper than 454 brass and you can load the gun light if you like.

Just something to consider.

drdougrx · « **Reply #17 on:** September 13, 2009, 02:31:51 PM »

RacerX

That's a different take.....didn't think about that.....I was actually looking to shoot bullets in that weight range at that velocity as I think the full bore 454s would be way more that I suspect I'll need..even as backup for hogs and bears. Hmmmm....I'll try to find a copy if I can....

On another front...my good friend Dave told me he has a blackhawk frame, complete with grip, etc sans barrel which was his late father's and an incomplete project gun that he's willing to sell for a fair price, though less than a complete used gun!

Will keep the forum posted.

Racer X · « **Reply #18 on:** September 13, 2009, 03:03:30 PM »

Quote from: drdougrx on September 13, 2009, 02:31:51 PM

RacerX

That's a different take.....didn't think about that.....I was actually looking to shoot bullets in that weight range at that velocity as I think the full bore 454s would be way more that I suspect I'll need..even as backup for hogs and bears. Hmmmm....I'll try to find a copy if I can....

On another front...my good friend Dave told me he has a blackhawk frame, complete with grip, etc sans barrel which was his late father's and an incomplete project gun that he's willing to sell for a fair price, though less than a complete used gun!

Will keep the forum posted.

You should order Bowen's book. He sells them on his website and it is a very informative book.

As for grip frame, I once asked Dave Clements at what velocity does a standard Blackhawk gripframe in a 4-5/8" 45 Colt become uncomfortable and hence, require a Bisley gripframe. His answer was when shooting 250 grain bullets at 1200 FPS or greater. I shot some 285 grain bullets at ~ 1100 FPS in my 4-5/8" gun and that is the outer limit of what I can comfortably shoot. If you are going to spend the money on a custom, high-performance 5 shot gun, I strongly suggest the Bisley grip.

drdougrx · « **Reply #19 on:** September 13, 2009, 04:37:08 PM »

Thanks Race....look'n at a Gary Reeder Untimate Bisley. May still get the 454 and down load.

mk454 · « **Reply #20 on:** September 15, 2009, 10:29:24 AM »

well, the other day i was testing some of my loads and i can tell you that my 10" 454 casull with 300gr loads at a chrony'd avg of 1940 fps had less felt recoil than my bud's 6" and my 7.5" with 360 gr loads going 1470fps avg from the 7.5". i think the barrel length definitely affects recoil. i think a double action is gonna be much faster on target period on follow up shots.

lloyd, not sure what loads you feel are fullhouse in the casull or 475. if you wanna go with what you can buy factory, the recoil from a 454 400gr. at 1400 fps is as still stouter than anything i've run out of my 475 and when i've run the .454 on reloads and have my 300grainers hitting 1800fps it's been brutal. the most brutal handgun recoil i've had was a duplication of an old triplex load a guy at our range would load, he had one of he first 454 FA made. that would run almost 2150 with a 260 gr bullet and a 7.5" barrel. i'm sure i could do a similiar thing to the 475 and it'd be completely intolerable and i'm pretty sure the 500 wouldn't do well at those pressures. btw, that one hurt bad.

imho 6" is the shortest i'll use in a casull. i can get away with shorter in my 475 which i recently sold. it was 4.75 inches in it's final inception as i would run some mellow but hard hitting 420 gr loads. these didn't turn the gun up violently at all when they were running about 900fps.

that said, i wouldn't go for a gnr caliber at all. hitting harder? don't know what that exactly means but i do know that if you try to ever ever find bullets anywhere, well............good luck. nothing you can't kill with a 454 you can with the reeder calibers, but you can buy bullets many places and i have at times when i have been to busy to get some reloads cranked out.

drdougrx · « **Reply #21 on:** September 15, 2009, 02:44:34 PM »

Hey MK,

Kinda felt the same way about the GNR...though I MAY, SOMEDAY get a .356. I think the Casull will work out fine for what I want it for. I expect I'll find a mid to upper range load with a 300 plus grain hardcast and it'll be just fine.

Axehandle · « **Reply #22 on:** September 16, 2009, 03:31:40 AM »

Never pass on an excuse for another gun....

IMHO the 454 just recoils sharper than the 475s and 50s... For a carry a lot and shoot a little gun I lean hard to the 4-5 inch guns... Don't forget the FAs.. I picked up a 4.5 inch Reeder 500L a while back and have been impressed.. Here is a pic of the Reeder, a 4 inch round butt 500WE FA and my newest big bore a 5 inch 500L by Gallagher..

Bob Riebe · « **Reply #23 on:** September 16, 2009, 07:41:58 AM »

Quote from: drdougrx on September 06, 2009, 03:22:34 AM

Having a conversation with some of the gunshop experts about the 454 casull. I'm thinking of a new single action project to build a back-up, woods walker, close range close hunting revolver for bears and hogs.

Look at the type of shooting you will be doing. A short barrel gun handles better (quicker to the point).

Unless you are going to be doing shooting measured in hundreds of yards, a barrel eight or more inches serves no real purpose.

FWIIW-- When I was at a Linebaugh shoot I told John I wanted to shoot his nastiest revolver.
After being told I would be bouncing it off of my head, he rounded up a .475 max which he said was actually worse than the .500.
Recoil was obviously stout but not that much worse than some hotted up .45s or other lighter guns with very hot loads.
I do not think any critter will see that you have too short a barrel and come after you because you are under-gunned.

drdougrx · « **Reply #24 on:** September 16, 2009, 02:33:15 PM »

Nice guns Ax....I can't buy FA in MASS. Bummer. That's OK though....I'll have the Ultimate Bisley built I guess.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #25 on:** September 17, 2009, 01:14:41 AM »

I think alot of guys think the 454s recoil is worse and sharper more because of the terrible muzzle blast. they sure make alot more noise then a 475 or 500. I own 454s 475s and 500s and they all kick with heavy loads and bottom line is if you can master anyone of them then you can master them all. Worse kicking sixgun i have is a 45 colt lightweight that clements built for me. Its a 4 inch stainless gun with an aluminum standard blackhawk grip frame, aluminum ejector housing and a scalopped recoil shield and loading gate. Its a joy to pack in a holster but the load its regulated for is a 300 grain bullet at 1300 fps. I wont post the load because it takes a serious load to get that velocity out of a 4 inch barrel but that little gun is like holding a stick of dynamite in your hand when it goes off. A long range session with it will actually peel skin off my hand. Its one of those guns that a guy works up a load and uses it for a purpose not a plinking gun. My thoughts in build it was it would be a powerful gun that would take any game animal in the world and could be carried all day without hardly knowing your carrying a gun. I dont get all excited about 454s or even 5 shot 45s. Ive done enough testing to know that using a heavy for caliber cast bullet the optimum velocitys for penetration are 1200-1300 and a 6 shot ruger will do that. I only have one 454 left and its a FA gun and probably the only reason i keep it is its the classic round that got FA on the market. If i want more power then that i step up to a bigger bullet in a 475 or 500. That way i get equal or better pentration and the added bonus of a bigger metplat without all the muzzle blast of a smaller caliber..

Axehandle · « **Reply #26 on:** September 17, 2009, 05:09:44 AM »

Hate it for you that you can't buy an FA up there..... For a custom 45 Colt I'd consider a oversize six shot cylinder... The extra length will give you all the room you need for heavier bullets.. The NM Ruger platform will give you a true 6 shot guns too... I stumbled upon a 5 shot Reeder 45 Colt Bisley a while back that is slick... It was my first full blown Reeder gun.. It changed the negative ideas I had about Reeder's stuff...

drdougrx · « **Reply #27 on:** September 18, 2009, 11:11:42 AM »

So...i keep hearing this. If I want a back-up gun for hogs and black bears...will the 45 colt with a 300gr cast fit the bill rather than a 454?

And...wouldn't a 44mag do the same thing??? It's academic really, I suspect any 300gr, 40+cal bullet traveling at 1200 -1300fps will pretty much all do the same thing. Do you think?

BTW...a 6.5" BH in 41 mag just followed me home....and....I'll be picking up a SBH frame/grip assembly on Sunday....too many projects....

Axehandle · « **Reply #28 on:** September 18, 2009, 01:57:25 PM »

Now that is what I am talking about!

I have a 41 Bisley sitting at Gallagher's shop... He is fitting a maximum length 357 maximum cylinder and rechambering to a 41 based on the 414 case trimmed to 1.4.. Just received a 270 grain LFN bullet mold for it...

drdougrx · « **Reply #29 on:** September 18, 2009, 02:42:48 PM »

What DID I get my own self into, tsk, tsk.....