Author Topic: Best Cartridge for beginning Silhouette? (Read 4361 times)

K2 · « **on:** October 03, 2003, 03:59:26 PM »

I've been at the game for awhile and at the last match a newbie asked me what would be the best cartridge to start into silhouette with. Without any hesitation I told him a .357 Magnum. It is good for both Big Bore and Field Pistol, has no problem taking properly set targets, and is very easy to load for with bullets from 110gr to over 180gr. plus being straight walled you can use carbide dies.

Versatile, accurate and after nearly 70 years still can run with the best of them.

B_Koes · « **Reply #1 on:** October 07, 2003, 08:08:00 AM »

The .357 is a good choice for all around use. If you're willing to take on just a little more inconvenience though, then I think the .32-20 (.308) becomes the optimal choice. At least that is what I would use. Lee will make a custom collet die and seater based on your fired case for $50 so reloading becomes really easy and the performance is far superior because you can use those sleek .30 cal rifle bullets. All of this is mostly conjecture though as the important thing is to just get out there and have fun hitting targets.

K2 · « **Reply #2 on:** October 08, 2003, 06:06:48 AM »

Hi B_Koes!
While I agree that the .30-20 is a very good cartridge for the game it comes close to being a wild cat in .308 trim and there are very few guns chambered for it. The .357 is one of the most popular handgun cartridges ever produced (I think the most popular if you toss in the .38 special). With the 180 silhouette bullets it is a great performer out to 200 meters. I got a kick out of the article on building yet more wildcats on the new WSSM case (like we need more wildcats for the game). I will be watching the used barrels and pick up a .357 soon.

Quote from: B_Koes

The .357 is a good choice for all around use. If you're willing to take on just a little more inconvenience though, then I think the .32-20 (.308) becomes the optimal choice. At least that is what I would use. Lee will make a custom collet die and seater based on your fired case for $50 so reloading becomes really easy and the performance is far superior because you can use those sleek .30 cal rifle bullets. All of this is mostly conjecture though as the important thing is to just get out there and have fun hitting targets.

B_Koes · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2003, 09:19:37 AM »

Well ya didn't mention that we had to use handgun availability in the original criteria. I readily admit that you have to be a motivated person to get yourself a setup for the .32-20 (.308) ... or the .30-20 as it is often called. Nothing wrong wtih the .357 though...heck I even use it for my Cowboy rifle silhouettes!

dawg_doc · « **Reply #4 on:** October 09, 2003, 04:12:12 AM »

nope, you guy's are all wet :-) the best caliber is .22lr. makes it cheap to shoot, so the spouse doesn't think your new sport costs too much. then you start sliding in the 7br, the 7TCU, the .357, etc, etc. The problem of course is that even starting with a Ruger SingleSix, you'll end up with an Anschutz, so the monetary savings are minimal.

I just picked up a .22 DW. I figure I'll go back to the revolver so I can shoot one gun in multiple classes.

cheers

K2 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 09, 2003, 05:52:49 AM »

Hi Dawg Doc!

The Anschutz is only good for Unlimited classes and due to being super muzzle heavy only the freestyle positions so it isn't much of a bargain. The Single Six, Ruger MkII are much more versatile than the bolt action.

As for affordabilty I think you might find that a .357 is as cheap to run as is a .22 when using high dollar .22 target ammo for Small Bore.

The most affordable "competitive" thing one can do in silhouette is to shoot standing. Equipment matters the least in the upright position using iron sights.

The problem of course is that even starting with a Ruger SingleSix, you'll end up with an Anschutz, so the monetary savings are minimal.

dawg_doc · « **Reply #6 on:** October 09, 2003, 06:37:37 AM »

yep, I agree. I love shooting my Anschutz, but I picked up the DW because I can shoot everything with it if I choose to.

These discussions always end up costing me money.... I reloaded a 1000 rounds of 38 special for my 4-H kids to shoot until I realized that for liability reasons we can't shoot homegrown reloads. Now you've got me thinking of shooting FP with it. Hmmm, a 4" Taurus revolver with lousy sights or buying another barrel for my Contender. :grin:

K2 · « **Reply #7 on:** October 10, 2003, 05:25:42 AM »

Double check on not using reloads in 4-H, afterall reloading is a shooting sport discipline taught under the 4-H banner.

On the "specialty guns" such as the anschutz and the big bore lay down only "ray guns" I always have thought the production guns were way more fun! To me if you can't actually stand up and shoot it is it really a "handgun"?

Quote from: dawg_doc

yep, I agree. I love shooting my Anschutz, but I picked up the DW because I can shoot everything with it if I choose to.

These discussions always end up costing me money.... I reloaded a 1000 rounds of 38 special for my 4-H kids to shoot until I realized that for liability reasons we can't shoot homegrown reloads. Now you've got me thinking of shooting FP with it. Hmmm, a 4" Taurus revolver with lousy sights or buying another barrel for my Contender. :grin:

K2 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2003, 05:29:28 AM »

dawg doc,

On costing, your article is costing me time as it was so good and to the point that I felt a followup article on the lack of a jr. program was in order!

dawg_doc · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2003, 06:16:00 AM »

yep. no reloads. factory reloads only. I understand the liability issue, though. I don't think you can even shoot the stuff you reload in the reloading discipline, but I'm not sure.

If you need any help, input, someone else to blame, etc with another article, don't hesitate to holler. I also promised Bob Baier of the NSR that I'd pen a general article for him, too.

I'm toying with the idea of focusing next year almost exclusively on standing, revolver and production. I'm a lousy standing shooter, so I should. My spouse is taking an interest in the sport and an interest in the Anschutz, so I may just pass it over to her, stand on two legs and embarrass myself.

IronMonkey · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2003, 08:43:01 AM »

I just got a dan wesson ss 22 with a 10 inch barrel. Bi@@@@n trigger and serial number 502. Looking forward to shooting revolver and hunter's pistol with it. Might even try standing which I suck at and hate. Going to shoot wolf match target. I got it for 15 bucks a brick! Bought a case. Dan

K2 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2003, 05:28:17 AM »

If you are correct that we cannot use reloads made by 4-Hers in the 4-H program due to lack of coverage of "liabilty" then I question having it as a discipline. The liability issues are killing the desire of many to be involved in any youth activity period and is leading us to a very isolated existance where mere association is risky :~(

The left has done a good job selling the idea that any bad thing that happens is someone elses "fault". The lack of personal respondsibilty is going to lead us to a second rate existance.

Bluedog · « **Reply #12 on:** October 14, 2003, 04:08:19 AM »

I don't think 357 is a good round for big bore in a wheelgun. The newbie will be tempted to overload the cartridge to make up for center-of-mass hits on the rams.

I would recommend the 44mag or 454 casull. Plenty to work with and stay within very safe limits. The 454 is probably the best, but 44 beats it on price.

With a single-shot, I have no idea. I have no use for them in the field, although their performance is very impressive.

K2 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 14, 2003, 07:06:03 AM »

Hi Bluedog

If a .357 mag is not 99% on the Rams then the problem is with either the Rails the Animals or the target setters. Only about 1/2 of the members actually know how to properly set a Ram. You will see 30-20's 357's 300 wispers that do just fine at many locations. No need to overload a .357, it is fine in a wheel gun IF the animals are set correctly.

Quote from: Bluedog

I don't think 357 is a good round for big bore in a wheelgun. The newbie will be tempted to overload the cartridge to make up for center-of-mass hits on the rams.

I would recommend the 44mag or 454 casull. Plenty to work with and stay within very safe limits. The 454 is probably the best, but 44 beats it on price.

With a single-shot, I have no idea. I have no use for them in the field, although their performance is very impressive.

Bluedog · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2003, 07:58:15 AM »

AK,

granted, that is a factor. I have spent many long hard days setting targets, and it is indeed difficult to avoid the hard set when the wind is up or the targets are bent.

Another factor, however is the hardness of the bullets. I did several experiments with BR 20+ bullets, at 325gr @ 1440 muzzle, and they shatter without toppling the ram quite often. Its just physics.

There's also the less-than-optimal steel at some ranges as I alluded to above. Keeping the steel like new is an expensive proposition, and in a sport where many clubs are dying from lack of interest, ranges can't justify the cost. Can't say I blame them. You can kick someone off the range for puncturing things, but the dange is done. if you get a couple dozen paid guns a week, you rely on volunteers, and that is a dirty word to some shooters.

And there are experienced shooters who would disagree with you, notably the article in the recent IHMSA news. I still stand behind my statement, for a wheelgun, 357 is less than desireable for a first-timer. I acknowledged the potential for the single-shots though. I haven't seen many 300 whisper wheelguns, LOL!

K2 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 16, 2003, 07:12:18 AM »

Hi Bluedog

You have laid out the #1 issue. The problem is poorly set or maintained targets and rails. The symptom is "rung" animals which then are hit with heavier and heavier loads which in turn wear out the targets that much faster.

The solution is to fix the problem and promote the heck out of the less damaging and very adequate calibers such as the .357, .360 DW, 30-20's etc.

As for windy days simple clamp the targets or go to swingers which accomplish the same thing as a clamped target. Remember that ram that is rung will end up getting hit by heavier and higher velocity loads which run the cost of maintaining it even higher, or lead to the ultimate high cost.

The ultimate high cost is the fellow who after hitting several rams center or above and not having them fall. He grows weary and leaves big bore altogether, leaving fewer shooters to cover the cost of the match.

If a .357 loaded at normal velocity isn't 99% at a local match then that match has cancer and will be dead if treatment is not started very soon. Focus on the problem, not the symptom. Never make the mistake of not charging enough to cover the cost of maintaining the equipment. If your animals are old and twisted then they are past the point of use. Good targets and good target setting encourage the use of mild loads which in turn keep those targets in good shape for a lot longer time period. The fellow who shoots hot loads is cost shifting and his entry fees do not cover his overtaxing the targets. Slower softer bullets do the job and don't damage the targets. If your club cannot afford to maintain the match then you fellows need to sit down and rationally discuss what should be done.

I wish you the best of luck. The high cost of silhouette can be substantially lowered with good thinking.

K2 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 16, 2003, 07:27:08 AM »

bluedog

I just reread your post. If you have rams that are not falling when hit with a 325 gr. bullet launched at 1440 fps then your range has a severe problem.

I had a simular situation and until I went out and leveled the Ram rails (they were leaning towards the firing line from 5 to 10 degrees) they would not fall to even hot 7mm IHMSA loads consistantly. Now they fall to .38 specials going 1200 fps 90% of the time. I don't know what to tell you other than take a level out with you the next time you go and take a serious look at your rams. If it is truly that bad I am surprised you can get anyone to that match. I won't shoot where ringers are common as it indicates a head in the sand attitude. If you are loosing members they may be like me and simply have given up on reasoning with your shooters that are ignoring the problem.

Bluedog · « **Reply #17 on:** October 16, 2003, 09:34:08 AM »

That is the case with some of them. They are awfully shot up. You do the best you can with what you have.

But it is kind of like a rock hitting the water. A gentle toss makes a big splash; a meteorite expends more energy shattering the meteorite and throwing the pieces in all directions than making a splash. Another good example is the bowling pin shoots.

Some people have referred to this as "dwell time". Simplistic, but not altogether inaccurate.

K2 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 16, 2003, 10:14:05 AM »

I can sympathize with the shot up equipment. I am working with a range that has seen about 10 years of neglect and the cost to fix it is a bunch.

I pretty much gave up my Big Bore season to set targets with the 4-H kids and show them how to do it right. I also fixed the rail lean. I have found that those who were run off in the years past by bad target setting and constantly hearing "You need to put some more power in your loads" are nearly impossible to get back.

Changing the atmoshere of the match into fun is bringing new folks inot the game and to be honest if someone is grumpy I would rather they not show up. I would rather have 6 happy shooters than 2 grumpy ones. Smiles are contagious and so are frowns.

If someone doesn't like something at a match I am running we can usually solve the problem by putting our heads together and fixing it. "Winning" a local match is very low on my priority list ;~) Also I feel sort of sorry for a fellow who thinks his score is that important that he will bitch at the volunteers. His life is problably pretty miserable in general. Fixing problems is positive. Bitchin about them is negitive.

You folks most likely have the money it takes to get new animals. One Big Bore entry costs about $25 when you consider entry fees, ammo costs, and the cost of getting to the range. Tell everyone that attends that you need to have the cost of 2 entries donated to the club and go buy some new Rams. Set em on flat level rails and they will fall with great regularity. If your shooters do not wish to help out in this manner then you really don't have a chance with this particular group and should move on. Small bore is fun too and all the animals fall and last a long long time!

bgjohn · « **Reply #19 on:** January 23, 2004, 07:47:41 AM »

Magnum, Schmagnum.

Watch my lips, 22,

HORNET !!!

JM

themaker · « **Reply #20 on:** March 30, 2004, 06:49:25 PM »

how about a dan wesson 357 supermag

K2 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 31, 2004, 06:21:13 AM »

Themaker

If you have a 357 super mag then by all means use it! It is not as versatile in my mind as the .357 mag nor are components as readily available so personlly I would not buy one but that is a personal decision.

Quote from: themaker

how about a dan wesson 357 supermag

aggshooter · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2004, 02:30:20 AM »

Someone should check me on this, but I'm pretty sure the Supermag case isn't allowed in FP as it is capable of too much target damage. You can use the gun, but have to load it down by using the magnum length cases.

K2 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 02, 2004, 06:16:09 AM »

Hi aggshooter

The rules allow for straight wall centerfire pistol cases of standard manufacture up to a 1.29 length. Then there are the exceptions to the rules which allow for specific cartridges that don't fall within the original rules such as the .22 hornet, and the supermag is not on the list of exceptions.

Quote from: aggshooter

Someone should check me on this, but I'm pretty sure the Supermag case isn't allowed in FP as it is capable of too much target damage. You can use the gun, but have to load it down by using the magnum length cases.

Gun Zorro · « **Reply #24 on:** May 06, 2004, 05:58:45 AM »

The best (readily available) silhouette cartridges to start shooting Big Bore or 1/2 Size are still either the 7TCU or 7BR, in either Production or Unlimited guns. The .357 and all similar cartidges (32-20, .44 Mag, etc.) have the extreme disadvantages of poor trajectory and increased wind deflection. These limitations are counter productive to posting good scores by anyone other than very experienced shooters. Can you have a good time with your .357? Definitely! Just don't expect it to reflect your true marksmanship or the potenials of accuracy available. If you have a choice, shoot a 7mm, or better yet, a 6.5mm cartridge with a heavy bullet. Jim

K2 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 06, 2004, 06:50:27 AM »

Hi Gun Zorro

While I would agree that for Big Bore the TCU's and the BR's are more accurate the .357 is still more versatile in that you can use it for the short courses of Field Pistol/Hunter pistol and so far they have not allowed the TCU's and BR's into these games. The TCU's are wildcats though fairly easy ones to make they do require one to have a fair amount of reloading experience and the brass must be fireformed, and for most people a new gun. The 357's are in many gun safes already and they are an excellent choice for something to get started with for a beginner or to stay with for the experienced shooter. In Big Bore Revolver they are winning many Regionals and the International also.

Here is the caveat in my choice. If you are planning on going to the International and aspire to win there then follow Gun Zorro's advice and go with the BR's and never look back. Pass by the TC's as well as the custom house guns have tighter tollerances, faster lock times and max out the sight radius, all factors to be considered in the shoot off targets. You will also want to go with Lapua brass and the finest bullets made at this level of competition.

If on the other hand you are interested in shooting locally or perhaps at the state level and want to enjoy the game and improve your marksmanship skills without a lot of speciallized equipment and are looking for versatility then don't overlook the .357 it works well and for Standing won the International last year in the hands of a great shooter.

Gun Zorro is a pretty excellent representative of the high tech side of the silhouette games and I resignate with the low tech side. WE both enjoy shooting silhouette but do it in different ways. :wink:

Quote from: Gun Zorro

The best (readily available) silhouette cartridges to start shooting Big Bore or 1/2 Size are still either the 7TCU or 7BR, in either Production or Unlimited guns. The .357 and all similar cartidges (32-20, .44 Mag, etc.) have the extreme disadvantages of poor trajectory and increased wind deflection. These limitations are counter productive to posting good scores by anyone other than very experienced shooters. Can you have a good time with your .357? Definitely! Just don't expect it to reflect your true marksmanship or the potenials of accuracy available. If you have a choice, shoot a 7mm, or better yet, a 6.5mm cartridge with a heavy bullet. Jim

teamnelson · « **Reply #26 on:** May 06, 2004, 08:54:32 AM »

Okay, I just want to add my 2 cents, as a newbie - been shooting IHMSA since January.

I started off shooting .44 BB, .38 FP, and .22LR SB, all revolvers, cause that's the way Major taught me

.

Since then, I have acquired an old TC Contender in .22LR, which I have used on both SB and FP at the ranges in Cochise and Tucson.

I would have to say that .22LR has been the cheapest, most versatile, and most pleasant to shoot as a newbie. I'm still chasing the turkeys on the BB course with my .44, of course, but for sheer shooting enjoyment, with no fuss or muss, and it draws me back again and again - it's the 22lr. My wife may even break down and shoot IHMSA with a .22; my dad with MD can still shoot .22 - it's an every man's cartridge.

It seems to me that air pistol has caught on real well, while "traditional" silhouette hasn't grown as rapidaly. Maybe if we hyped up the .22lr, we'd see more folks come out who are otherwise intimidated by things like recoil and reloading.

I think it'd be great to see the IHMSA become a marksmanship development game in addition to its traditional marksmanship competition. Personally, when I get comfortable and consistent shooting the .22, I may branch out and get that 7mm TCU, but I'm going to wait a bit first.

K2 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 07, 2004, 06:33:53 AM »

HI TeamNelson

Say hi to Major for me as I am sure he isn't on the net :wink:

Major understands the importance of the fundamentals and that is why he used to shoot 30's standing fairly regularly with his Rugers.

I designed AIR with marksmanship training in mind and would suggest you give it a go. Forget the aftermarket sight non-sense and simply get decent sight settings and practice. It will improve your .22, FP and BB scores if you do and you will practice a whole lot more if you can do it in the garage or back yard than if you have to make the drive to the range for practice.

Is he still using that short legged Turkey?? I used to kid him that that one was laying eggs that is why it was sitting down on the rail :-D

Anyway there is no finer Silhouetter in the country so enjoy his company :wink: He can teach you to shoot standing if you listen to him, and when he tells you to take a click or two, do it.

Quote from: TeamNelson

Okay, I just want to add my 2 cents, as a newbie - been shooting IHMSA since January.

I started off shooting .44 BB, .38 FP, and .22LR SB, all revolvers, cause that's the way Major taught me .

Since then, I have acquired an old TC Contender in .22LR, which I have used on both SB and FP at the ranges in Cochise and Tucson.

I would have to say that .22LR has been the cheapest, most versatile, and most pleasant to shoot as a newbie. I'm still chasing the turkeys on the BB course with my .44, of course, but for sheer shooting enjoyment, with no fuss or muss, and it draws me back again and again - it's the 22lr. My wife may even break down and shoot IHMSA with a .22; my dad with MD can still shoot .22 - it's an every man's cartridge.

It seems to me that air pistol has caught on real well, while "traditional" silhouette hasn't grown as rapidaly. Maybe if we hyped up the .22lr, we'd see more folks come out who are otherwise intimidated by things like recoil and reloading.

I think it'd be great to see the IHMSA become a marksmanship development game in addition to its traditional marksmanship competition. Personally, when I get comfortable and consistent shooting the .22, I may branch out and get that 7mm TCU, but I'm going to wait a bit first.

Brett · « **Reply #28 on:** July 26, 2004, 10:24:37 AM »

Quote from: akihmsa

If you are correct that we cannot use reloads made by 4-Hers in the 4-H program due to lack of coverage of "liabilty" then I question having it as a discipline. The liability issues are killing the desire of many to be involved in any youth activity period and is leading us to a very isolated existance where mere association is risky :~(

The left has done a good job selling the idea that any bad thing that happens is someone elses "fault". The lack of personal respondsibilty is going to lead us to a second rate existance.

Dang - you sure got that right! Seems like you have to stop and think about covering your "six" before you do a blasted thing these days for fear that some lawyer will jump out of the wood pile and slap you with a lawsuit. That's why we see these idiotic product labels like "Warning: Remove plastic wrapper before eating candy bar". Duh! So the 4-H saying you can load them as long as you don't shoot them doesn't surprise me a bit.

Getting off the soap box and back to the original subject - My vote goes to the .357 mag. cartridge, a quality revolver and a Lee Classic Loader kit for the most bang for the beginners buck. If you discover you are good at and /or really like the sport you can always spend the $$$ on the high dollar custom guns in wild cat cartridges later and you will still have the .357 for cheap practice or casual fun.

dawg_doc · « **Reply #29 on:** July 26, 2004, 01:18:40 PM »

Quote from: Brett

So the 4-H saying you can load them as long as you don't shoot them doesn't surprise me a bit.

May be, but the 4-H program is the best youth firearms program out there (I teach NRA, 4-H, BSA and hunter ed). I've graduated 80 some kids out of 4-H handgun in the past 4 years. 95% of the kids out there less than 16 have no business holding on to the back end of anything larger than a .22. Rifles, fine, but handguns are a whole 'nother ball of wax. Even .22's develop bad habits real quick if not done right.

That's why we shoot youth air pistol silhouette all the time. The kids love it, stuff falls over and they develop good, solid shooting skills. At our match last weekend, we had (out of 20 shots), 6 kids shoot 14 or better. The range? chickens and pigs at the chix line and turkeys and rams at the pig line. That is some fine skill and the age is 8-16.