.45 long colt .410 shotgun survivor...problems please help!!!!!!

[riggeratwork]

hey guys i have a bit of a problem and need some advice.... have recently purchased  2 of the 45 long colt .410 survivor rifles from H&R for my twin boys first gun... Great in oz for medium sized game but the problem that i am having is that i cant get the damn things to shoot a decent group.... usind an adi powder ap70 10grains pushing a 230grn pill and cant get the group smaller than 6 inches at 50 yards.... Have tried different types of factory ammo all with the same effect... cant believe that it would be the guns fault (wouldnt get two lemons) and i have been shooting in excess of 15 years so i can shhot pretty well..... tried using a rifle powder first and couldnt stop the trail of unburnt powder down the barrel so i went to a shotgun powder and corrected that problem but still cant get the grouping?? ... have thought that because this little gem also accepts a 3 inch .410 case maybe the jump to the lans is too far and am getting yawl down the barrell...???thoughts.... also wondered if maybe the pill is too small...? its a .451 and the ones that i have managed to dig out have little or no rifiling marks on them after firing... could this be my problem... any thoughts info or suggestions would be helpful cheers....

[cwlongshot]

I havent had this model, so my answer is just edjucated speculation. I feel there are a couple things going on, one is that lite bullet, 255+ is where the long colt shines. Keep those almost round boolits with the 1911 where they belong. Then that big jump to the rifeling you mention, thats certainly not helping things.

Try some different loads and see what happens... Post back up your findings.

CW

[zoner]

sounds like your bullets are designed for 45 acp....230rn @.451.....get some cast bullets made for 45 LC @ .452...start with a mid-range load and work your way up with 1/2 gr increments of the powder you're using....try 250 gr bullets

[billy_56081]

Probably the biggest issue is the bullet jump. I can get 3 to 4 inch groups at 50 yards with 255 grain winchester factory loads. A good soft lead bullet should grasp the rifling a little better also.



By the way just to make sure have you removed the choke tube while firing solid bullets?

[riggeratwork]

45 colt relaoding data

Factory Magtech 250 grain lead
shot    1 - 610 fps
        2 - 647 fps




Hand load, 230 grain JHP loaded with 20 grains of ADI AR2205
shot    1 - 950 fps
   2 - 1053 fps
   3 - 942 fps
   4 - 970 fps
   5 - 1013 fps
excessive unburt powder in barrel - no flatening of primer

Hand load, 230 grain JHP loaded with 8 grains of ADI AP70N
shot    1 - 819 fps
some unburt powder in barrel - no flatening of primer

Hand load, 230 grain JHP loaded with 9 grains of ADI AP70N
shot    1 - 985 fps
   2 - 966 fps
   3 - 965 fps
some unburt powder in barrel - no flatening of primer

Hand load, 230 grain JHP loaded with 10 grains of ADI AP70N
shot   1 - 1085 fps
   2 - 1094 fps
   3 - 1093 fps
   4 - 1094 fps
   5 - 1093 fps
low / some levels of some unburt powder in barrel - no flatening of primer

Hand load, 230 grain JHP loaded with 10.5 grains of ADI AP70N
shot    1 - 1177 fps
   2 - 1176 fps
low unburt powder in barrel - no flatening of primer

Hand load, 230 grain JHP loaded with 11 grains of ADI AP70N
shot    1 - 1209 fps
   2 - 1189 fps
very low unburt powder in barrel - no flatening of primer

Hand load, 230 grain JHP loaded with 11.5 grains of ADI AP70N
shot    1 - 1285 fps
   2 - 1339 fps
very low unburt powder in barrel - no flatening of primer



Hand load, 300 grain JHP load with 8 grains of ADI AP70N
shot    1 - 958 fps
   2 - 958 fps
low unburt powder in barrel - no flatening of primer

Hand load, 300 grain JHP load with 9 grains of ADI AP70N
shot    1 - 1062 fps
   2 - 1058 fps
very low unburt powder in barrel - no flatening of primer

[FLNT4EVR]

The 45/410 is not a very accurate firearm. It is a short range survival gun for campers,backpackers,boaters,ect. I don't think any duel ammunition firearm should be expected to give moa groups.As you had noted the jump to the lands for the 45 bullet is pretty extreme,and definately affects accuracy.And the rifeling has to be such that the very short choke system used for shot can overcome the spin imparted on the shot collum.I did find that in mine the 452 bullets did work better , but you have to be careful not to drive them to fast , so the bullet can take full advantage of the rifeling.

[JerryKo]

R@W,

Just curious what type of sighting system you are using.  Did you get it drilled and tapped and add a scope or are you using the bead sight?  Other than that, I would suspect at the very least a larger dia. bullet. Mine slugged at I think .452, and when I used lead I was sizing mine to .454 and having better results.  I have also found a very high loss in velocity with the short 45lc in this barrel.  My solution was going to a longer type of brass.  I started with a 444marlin case fireformed and started have decent results, but really made it shine with 9.3-74r cases trimmed to fit my chamber.  There is good info in the FAQS on 45/410 ...read the thread and you'll also find a post to my thread on the project.  I put alot of time into accurizing mine, and others have also.  I had alot of unburnt powder at first and then started using a very firm crimp with the Lee factory crimp die, with improved results.  Another thing I would recommend if you go the longer brass is to get the  chambers cast and go over the dimensions of each chamber,...they may be different for each.  Billy (above) went a different route and used brass shotgun shells to load his with some good results.

Hope it works out for you,...I remember thinking the same for my barrel, as a good youth starter, but I don't think this barrel shines on either chambering unless you go to some effort on your part.

Jerry

[riggeratwork]

hey guys many thanks for the input.... Yes they have been drilled and tapped and a scope mounted to try for better accuracy i had it done before they even left the shop.... I dont expect to get a sub moa group out of theese but if i can get a 6 shot 2 inch group i would be more than happy at 50 yards... they have the ability to drop big buck goats out at about 100 yrds ( have done with one before... lucky shot) and managed to put it down with one shot 80kgs plus...any idea on what speeds i can push the pill before it starts to go everywhere... would prefer to shoot copper jacketed than lead if i can... any load data would be good bearing in mind i can get most of your powder equivelants here in aus...am seriously considering going to a .444 marlin case and a trailboss powder but am concerned about secondary explosion... there is not a lot of data that can be obtained here in aus about shooting this calibre in rifle it is mainly pistol so hence i am flying blind...

[dieselten]

the factory Winchester 255 lead bullet actually has a slight hollow base to allow it to expand to seal the bore.  You will probably achieve your best accuracy from factory ammo with this load.  You can also buy these bullets in bulk for reloading.  Try and use a faster pistol type powder like Unique.  You can't push them too fast though, because they use a simple thinly applied surface lube instead of the traditional grease grooves.  The bullets are also plain lead-very soft.

[lostchild]

My 45/410 likes heavy (300gr ) bullets going fairly fast.  For the most part I use 445 super mag brass belled enough to start a 45 bullet thes slowly seat, I also use 445 super mag data ( takes two to four loadings to fully fire for ) I've not had any sighns of over pressure ( most cases soot just a little around the mouth.  Hope this helps ....lost

[petemi]

I thought about the .45/.410 and after reading more about it I decided on a .357, a 44 magnum and a .410 shotgun.  Mine are all on dedicated frames, but barrels can be changed as quickly as choke tubes, if you want to.  My .410 shoots that well with slugs.  I'd have gotten a .357 and a spare .410 or 20 ga. barrel.  My .410 barrel is also 22 inches, full choke.

Pete

[AH-1]

I think you should try some .454 bullets in your handi.if you slug the bore you might find it is a tad over sized.
pete

[Duckdog]

I have a couple of these and went to a LEE .456-220 gr conical for the ruger black powder revolver. Use soft lead and it will grab the rifling enough to get a 2" group at 50 yds, if not better.

I also bought a 45 carbine barrel, and that one is super accurate.  I think I am using 8-8.5 gr of Unique, but I do not have the data in front of me.  Play with them and you should be able to get them accurate enough to kill a deer out to 50-100 yards.

Good Luck