handi recoil help

[jchief]

Good day eveyone. Lousiana changed thier law and now allows center fire rifles for the primitive weapons hunt. See list below:
SINGLE SHOT BREECHLOADING RIFLES WHICH ARE PRIMITIVE WEAPONS:
Sharps rifles or replicas
Remington Rollingblock rifles or replicas
Ballard rifles
Maynard rifles or carbines
Burnside carbines
Frank Wesson rifles
Farrow rifles
Remington Hepburn rifles
M1873 – 1888 Springfield (Trapdoor) Rifles and Carbines and replicas
Snider (British) rifles or replicas
Wesson & Harrington 1871 Rifles
New England Firearms or Harrington & Richardson Handi Rifles in caliber larger than .38
Winchester M1885 Hi Wall or Lo Wall rifles or replicas (Also Browning B78 or 1885) .38 or larger
Knight KP-1 in caliber .38 or larger
CVA Optima Elite in caliber .38 or larger
Traditions Pursuit break-open single shot in .38 caliber or larger

Anywho, looking for one of the above in about a $$300 to $400 price range. Issue is I have had several surgeries on my neck and have to worry aobut too much recoil. I am afraid the 45.70 wll be too much entirely. I have spoke to several who have the Handi-rifle in the 45.70 and love the gun. Is there any other caliber that would not have that much recoiln and still be accurate out to about 150 yards. Should i look at other rifles also? the Handi with a scope is in the $350 range.

someone mentioned to look at the 44cal. How acurate are they?

thanks for any help.

[chipmunk]

I recently got a handi 45/70 and I can say that with factory loads, I would say the recoil is closer to my marlin 30-30 than any other of my rifles.

I have shot a 444 lever gun and that would probably work great too.  Not much recoil there.

And there's always the .44 mag if you really want to limit the recoil.  Never shot one but from what I hear, recoil is almost nothing in a handi.

Accuracy is supposedly great from all three of these.  Just depends on how important max range is to you.  For close range the .44 is probably all you need but if you want to reach out you may want to look into seeing if you can handle the other 2's recoil.

[quickdtoo]

Welcome! All H&R chamberings are accurate with the right load, some with a little more work than others, the 44mag would be one good option, although 150yds may be pushing it a little, recoil is light, and it could always be rechambered to 445Supermag as an option if you handload. The 38-55 would be another one, but they no longer make it, you'd want a 2007 model if you went that way too, same on the 44mag since prior barrels were overbore and would require handloading oversize cast bullets for good accuracy. The .444 has close to the same recoil as the 45-70. Another one would be the 45 Colt Carbine, I don't know how Hornady LE ammo does in it, but I get a little over 1900fps with 250gr bullets using +P data from mine, that's good to 150yds easy. 

It's real easy to abate recoil by adding a good recoil pad and weight to the stock too.

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

[lonewolf5348]

I would say 38-55 loaded with IMR 3031 26 to 28 grains  255 soft cast bullet BHN 10 to 12
man that gun won't move enough I can tell you that for sure.I had  cervical surgery 20 months ago C5-C7 are gone,my 38-55 I can shoot all day.

[jchief]

question on the recoil chart.

the chart shows the following:

45-70 (300 at 1800) 7.0 23.9 14.8
.45-70 (405 at 1330) 7.5 18.7 12.7
 

is that saying the heavier the load the less the recoil? I shot a 270 for my regular rifle and it is okay and the 45.70 in the 405 grain is close to it (150 gr @ 18.9 recoi). Hunting is only a shot or two, the issue is sightinig in or just shooting.

thanks for the info.

[lonewolf5348]

I use to own a 45-70 BC and all I can say it was a world of difference even using BP loads and a 405 grain cast bullet.

[quickdtoo]

Yes, the 405gr Remington ammo is loaded real low, Rem and Win 300gr ammo has quite a bit more punch at 1800fps, they're both trapdoor loads.

Tim

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=R4570L*R4570G

[Badnews Bob]

Those green box remmies shoot real well not to bad on recoil, a mercury recoil reducer really tames them down some too. that's what I did with mine.  I shoot hard cast 405 out of mine at trapdoor speeds and they bust deer hard. 150 yards is very doable too.

[cwlongshot]

I agree with TIM. Get yourself one of the newer recoil pads. I like sims but kick eez and pachmayer also make good ones. they REALLY do make a big difference.

Adding weight also helps, but remember if this is a hunting gun, what ever you add needs to be hauled around while hunting...

CW

[OBXPilgrim]

Jchief, I'm in the same boat as you and Lonewolf.  I've had neck surgery also - got titanium plates between C4-C5 and C6-C7 verts Sept '06. 

If you reload, you can reduce the 444 to some very soft loads using cast bullets and Unique - you can bump them up to certain pain levels with heavy lead & H4198.  My H4895 load using a 290gr lead RF cast is pushing 1800fps, in between, plenty of thump, and I can handle shooting a couple boxes at a time.  It's probably similar to the 45-70 405 BP load - maybe a little hotter.

I'd said if you reload the 38-55, 444, 44Mag, and 45-70 would all do what you want.  If you don't reload, you might want to go 45-70 or 44 Mag.  Only reason I wouldn't include the 38-55 is that it might be hard to get a good shooting factory load unless the barrel had the right bore size.

Too bad La wouldn't go down to 35 bore dia, the 38 Spl/357 Mag barrel reamed to 357 Max would be easy enough shooting for most anyone & still do what you want.
 

[petemi]

I'd get a .45-70 synthetic if you're not lugging it around too much.  Fill the stock with lead shot in a sock and put a limbsaver on it, and away ya go.  Shoot Hornady 325 gr. LEs, and it'll shoot like a Red Ryder BB gun at 2050 fps.

Pete

[briannmilewis]

I added weight to my 20g Tracker II slug gun by putting 20oz of #8 shot down the stock bolt hole, about 4oz more in the forearm, and topped it off with a little Elmer's glue to keep it in place, it can be easily broken thru if you need to get to the stock bolt. I also added a Limbsaver slip-on over the existing recoil pad, and that adds 1" to the length-of-pull. More weight and a longer length-of-pull, and the additional recoil pad, did a major job on recoil for me, cut it by half or close too it. The difference can be described as before the recoil measurers being hamered by 10 rounds and two weeks of recovery before there was no pain in my shoulder. After the changes, I shot 10 rounds without any pain at the time or afterwards.

A 44 mag recoil is just like a 30-30 as has been stated, and I would guess that using Hornady LeveRevolution ammo, 150 yards would be doable. Chuck Hawks trajectory tables show that a 44 Mag loaded with a 240g flat nose, has a maximum point-blank range of 159 yards, and his ballistics table claims 661 ft/lb energy at 200 yards. The Hornady website says their 44 Mag ammo with a 225gr Flex-Tip retains 617 ft/lb at 100 yards.

So it looks like there is some conflicting information about the 44 Mag and how effective it might be at 150 yards. Smarter folks than me need to answer that one.

I am glad it is you and not me, as my next Handy purchase is likely a 357 Mag.

Good luck.

[quickdtoo]

I got 1770fps with the 44mag 225gr LE ammo in my Handi, they don't sell the bullet as a component yet or list the BC, but I calculated the BC using QL software to be .150 based on their stated pistol velocities, and calculated external ballistics based on that below.

Tim

https://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=ballistics/popup&product_sku=92782

Trajectory for .430" 225 gr FTX at 1770 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.15   0.15   0.15   0.15   0.15
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1770   1770   1770   1770
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0   Cross Range: 0.0   Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 0 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range   Velocity   Energy   Momentum   Drop   Bullet Path   Wind Drift   Time of Flight
(Yards)   (Ft/Sec)   (Ft/Lbs)   (Lb-Sec)   (inches)   (inches)   (inches)   (Seconds)
0   1770.0   1564.9   1.77   0.0   -1.5   0.0   0.000000000
25   1655.2   1368.5   1.65   -0.36   0.19   0.0   0.043822863
50   1546.8   1195.1   1.55   -1.52   1.08   0.0   0.090703604
75   1445.5   1043.8   1.44   -3.58   1.06   0.0   0.140872669
100   1352.3   913.5   1.35   -6.69   0.0   0.0   0.194532147
125   1268.2   803.4   1.27   -10.99   -2.25   0.0   0.251827393
150   1194.3   712.5   1.19   -16.63   -5.85   0.0   0.312804431
175   1131.5   639.5   1.13   -23.8   -10.97   0.0   0.377367752
200   1079.4   582.0   1.08   -32.67   -17.78   0.0   0.445284717

[vincewarde]

I have severe spinal problems (neck and back).  They are bad enough that I am now retired/disabled.  I have an Ultra laminate stock model with a mercury recoil reducer.  I have barrels from .223 to 45-70.

I bought the 45-70 to use with my cast bullets.  With a 325gr linotype cast bullet (Lee 340gr mold) and 21gr of SR4759 the recoil is not at all bad and I shot 3 rounds into 1.1 inch at 100 yards.  I have not yet chrono'ed this load, so I don't know the velocity - but my guess is about 1200fps.  If this is big enough for what you are going to hunt, you might try it.

Hang in there!

Vince

[jchief]

Thanks for all the info. Couple of questions for an uniformed shooter.

What is meant by trapdoor load?

How much and where would you put lead in the gun? I will be carrying around some.

If i would start reloading, about how much would it cost to set up for the 45.70?

OBX, I have fusions at C2-3, 3-4, 5-6 and 6-7 and having issues at C4-5 now.

Vince, I am in the fire service, chief (desk job) and have about 12 and 1/2 months before I am eligible to retire, my neuro has been trying to get me to take a medical and I am trying to get 20 in.

[45-70.gov]

if  i were  recoil shy  and had to be 38  or  better

44  mag  without a dought

easiest  and  cheapest  to  find

hot loaded  44mag is not much different than  a mild  45-70
if  you reload.......and  it does it with  less  powder and recoil

44  specials  are  lots of fun  too   in  your  44 mag

44 mag  can have a companion hand gun   [45-70 handgun$$]

remember all  the exagerated   tales  of  the  44 magnum  power
it  is  more  in a rifle.....don't let those tales scare you  either
44 mag  is  a mild  quiet  rifle
44 speacials with  light loads and heavy slugs are as quiet as a 22short

[Lefty Dude]

Wrong thread, oops.

[petemi]

I'm not meaning to get into a discussion of what the .44 Magnum or the .45-70 will do.  I'm just saying what I will do with them and the .357s this coming season deer hunting.  My magazine rifles will stay home, and the three above Handis will be used.  Anticipating shots from 100 to 300 yards, the .45-70 will go along.  The .44 Magnum (soon to be .445 Supermag) with a red dot will be my close in, under 100 yards, early morning, evening low light rifle along with the .357 Maximum for close in during daylight hours with a conventional scope.  Again, I'm just saying what I'm doing.......not what the rifles can do..........oh yeah, one exception.....the .45-70 IS a 300 yard rifle.

I'm just a little skinny, arthritic old man, and the recoil of any of these rifles doesn't bother me.  I've used the suggestions here to lessen recoil, and they work.

Pete

[Hodr]

Mayby it's just me but I went to the limbsaver site and am a little confused.  I already have a handi in .308 that is going to be used for varmint to Elk.  I have a handi coming in 45-70 and am a trifle concernd with recoil until I reload some lighter shells.  Is there a limbsaver slip on that will fit both?  If so which one is it?  I hate to order something that will mess up the love affair I am having with my .308.  Now all I have to do is find some nice light (100 to 140 grain) varmint loads.  Any help will be appreciated.  My wife is sure that when I lay my hands on that 45-70 I am going to be camped at the range.  She is a wonderfully intelligent woman.  When I found and bought the 45-70 handi at an estate sale, she was carrying around a .223 handi she saw there and had already bought for me.  She is much better than I deserve and a great cook to.

blindhari

[petemi]

Ya done good, blindhari.  I think you got my wife's clone.  It only took me 50 years to find her.  Gotta go, I'll get back on the .308 and the .45-70.

Pete

[quickdtoo]

Thanks for all the info. Couple of questions for an uniformed shooter.

What is meant by trapdoor load?

How much and where would you put lead in the gun? I will be carrying around some.

If i would start reloading, about how much would it cost to set up for the 45.70?

There are three load levels for the 45-70, trapdoor which puts a SAAMI limit on pressure at 28kpsi, 1895 Levergun at 40kpsi and modern rifle(Ruger #1, bolt guns) at 50kpsi, this is depending on what source of data you look at of course, but these are the top levels of any published data, except for Barnes which goes to 55kpsi for Ruger #1. Trapdoor loads are very mild, yet very effective, most H&R shooters stay in that level mostly due to the milder recoil.

Lead or a mercury recoil reducer can be added to the stock bolt hole, or the cavity in the synthetic stock, this is covered in the FAQs as are recoil pads.

Aside from powder, bullets, primers and brass for about $50-$75, a Lee Classic Loader can be had for under $25, a Hand press for a little more plus the cost of dies.

Tim

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/51

[quickdtoo]

Mayby it's just me but I went to the limbsaver site and am a little confused.  I already have a handi in .308 that is going to be used for varmint to Elk.  I have a handi coming in 45-70 and am a trifle concernd with recoil until I reload some lighter shells.  Is there a limbsaver slip on that will fit both? 

blindhari

The small Limbsaver slip-on for $20 at Walmart will fit both stocks just fine. 

Tim

[Hodr]

Thanks for the help

blindhari

[petemi]

Back to the .308.  Mine isn't a Handi, but a Ruger M77 MKII.  I've had it about a dozen years, and it quickly became "The Magic Rifle".  It is sighted in at 200 yards with Winchester Supreme 168 gr. Silvertips.  I read somewhere, years ago, that 168 gr. BTs is what a .308 likes.  I tried it and stuck to it.  I don't change loads for anything from chucks, fox and coyotes to deer and bear.  I've taken fox and coyotes with that bullet to just under 400 yards.  The rifle wears a Bushnell Banner 3-9x40 with a circle and crosshair reticle, and I leave that alone.  I've put about a thousand rounds through her, and know my bullet's trajectory.  Jumping from load to load doesn't give you that advantage.  In short, I'd use the 168 gr. for varmints and elk.  A Mil Dot scope and a range finder would be a help.

The poor old gal doesn't get too many days out now since I became a Handiholic.  My Handis will be doing the deer hunting again this year.

Pete

[BrianB]

 I would probably go with the .44 Mag as recoil is reported to be mild.  It is also one of the few that meets the requirements.  The .357 is obviously too small to meet the requirements and the 38-55 is also smaller than the required minimum bullet size.  We had that confusion in Mississippi when people ran out and purchased 38-55's, not realizing the caliber is .375 and wasn't really legal.  (Though no one was ever cited for it to my knowledge)  I pointed it out to MDWFP, as many other people did I'm sure, and the minimum was changed to .35 caliber, which allowed the 38-55, the .357 and a few other calibers.  I don't know where you are in Louisiana, but if you're near the North Shore, there is an Academy in Slidell and last time I checked, Academy sold Handi's with composite stocks for $229.  The only issue would be if they can get it in a .44.  If you handload, all of this is moot.  Just get a 45-70 and load it light.

[zoner]

another vote for the limbsaver slip-on....mine fits all my guns that need a pad....i move it around where i need it

[jchief]

thanks for all the input. Leaning towards the 4570 with a limbsaver pad and look really hard at reloading  I am on the SW corner of Louisiana around Sulphur. there is an outdoor show in Lafayette this weekend and I plan on attending and hopefully finding a gun there.

Thanks again for all the knowledge and insight.

[quickdtoo]

...and the 38-55 is also smaller than the required minimum bullet size.

The 38-55 would technically work fine with the right sized bullets, H&Rs require at least .379" jacketed which wouldn't qualify technically either, but they like .380" or bigger cast bullets which should work great. 

Tim