Obama Care summerised

[scootrd]

I guess by most standards of those posting on this topic , Jesus is a socialist who would have voted for a public option.
I personally don't believe this. However,  he was compassionate and helped the poor, hungry, unclothed and Ill. Again , I am not for the Bill the way it was written , but should we not have some sort of reform to allow those less fortunate to help themselves by being productive contributers in society. A hand up , not a hand out.

Matthew 15:32-38
32 Jesus called his disciples to him and said, "I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or they may collapse on the way."

33 His disciples answered, "Where could we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd?"

34 "How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked.
      "Seven," they replied, "and a few small fish."

35 He told the crowd to sit down on the ground.
36 Then he took the seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to the people.
37 They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.
38 The number of those who ate was four thousand, besides women and children.

[Questor]

Scooterd:

Gosh! I never thought about it that way. The government spends money as though a miracle is forthcoming.

[Cabin4]

I guess by most standards of those posting on this topic , Jesus is a socialist who would have voted for a public option.

Matthew 15:32-38
32 Jesus called his disciples to him and said, "I have compassion for these people; they have already been with me three days and have nothing to eat. I do not want to send them away hungry, or they may collapse on the way."

33 His disciples answered, "Where could we get enough bread in this remote place to feed such a crowd?"

34 "How many loaves do you have?" Jesus asked.
      "Seven," they replied, "and a few small fish."

35 He told the crowd to sit down on the ground.
36 Then he took the seven loaves and the fish, and when he had given thanks, he broke them and gave them to the disciples, and they in turn to the people.
37 They all ate and were satisfied. Afterward the disciples picked up seven basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over.
38 The number of those who ate was four thousand, besides women and children.

Modern day big government political socialism health care proposal compared to food/eating for starving people 2 thousand years ago. Hmmmm... not sure I'm getting the connection.

[Questor]

Cabin4:

The answer is in my post.

[teamnelson]

Health care is not a fundamental right, or a civil right, or a human right ... its not a right at all. Natural law, from which our rights as protected by the Constitution are derived, indicates that people get sick, hurt and die all the time, often through no fault of their own. That's the way it is. If you have the means to address that condition then great, if you do not, then do not begrudge those who do. The religion of "fairness" is contrary to reason, science, and scripture.

Jesus was not a politician, nor a supporter of government social programs. His words are often abused to justify social action (social theology, liberation theology, constructive theology) but He was not a community activist. He called on individuals to love their neighbor as themselves, not a federally mandated charitable effort. The role of government per his teaching was accountability; not redistribution of wealth.

[scootrd]

Health care is not a fundamental right, or a civil right, or a human right ... its not a right at all. Natural law, from which our rights as protected by the Constitution are derived, indicates that people get sick, hurt and die all the time, often through no fault of their own. That's the way it is. If you have the means to address that condition then great, if you do not, then do not begrudge those who do. The religion of "fairness" is contrary to reason, science, and scripture.

Jesus was not a politician, nor a supporter of government social programs. His words are often abused to justify social action (social theology, liberation theology, constructive theology) but He was not a community activist. He called on individuals to love their neighbor as themselves, not a federally mandated charitable effort. The role of government per his teaching was accountability; not redistribution of wealth.

I absolutely agree with this post.

My question is - if as a society we have the means to address these issues and provide some sort of HC reform (I'm not saying Gov't take over) should we not all be working together Libs Dems , Rep, HC professionals, Pharma industries, individuals, Ins co's , etc.. to do so?

Why should we begrudge those that are trying to make a change?
It appears everyone on both sides of the isle recognizes what we have is unsustainable.
Is it not just the implementation of that change that is now being argued.

What abou tax reform?
Is that not Gov't run?
is that not also a redistribution of wealth of a sort?
And where is the accountability there?
Should there not be reform if as a society there is a means to do so?

[Questor]

That's what the businesses are trying to do, but the regulatory environment puts a lot of absurd friction into the process of having a streamlined market for medicine and medical services.

By the way, what is meant by "health care"? It's a nebulous term. So is "health insurance reform".

What we really need is medicine and medical services as needed. Insurance is not medicine, it is a risk management tool. Health care is not necessarily medicine. As usual, the politicians miss the whole purpose of the issue.

[teamnelson]

We may have the tangible means, but we do not all share the same sense of moral obligation to use those means to love our neighbor. We cannot legislate morality or social concern, which is the goal of the "fairness" doctrine espoused by the current administration. We cannot "make" people love their neighbor, nor can the government hold them accountable to that standard.

Taxes are way of making people participate in programs contrary to their conviction; of making the minority voice underwrite the cost of the majority vote. Its immoral ... when we like it, we call it patriotism, when we don't, we call it socialism, and any who disagrees are unAmerican.

[Cabin4]

The Liberals love to play the Jesus card when it serves their own selfish interest even know it has no application to the subject. All of a sudden, the Liberals got religion.....Ha Ha. They hate Jesus, Christianity and regligion in general . When a conservative envokes scripture or religion, the Liberlas cry "1 st amendment----speration of church and state"....Stop applying religion.

Liberals make me sick. They are all about the end game and anything goes. It’s all about controlling people lives and making them comply with their way of life. They are exactly what Christianity and our Constitution in NOT about. And its only via subversion and lies can they get what they want. Obama is the poster child with Pelosi and Reed as his liars in crime. Obama, Pelosi & Reed, the real Axis of Evil.

[scootrd]

The Liberals love to play the Jesus card when it serves their own selfish interest even know it has no application to the subject. All of a sudden, the Liberals got religion.....Ha Ha. They hate Jesus, Christianity and regligion in general . When a conservative envokes scripture or religion, the Liberlas cry "1 st amendment----speration of church and state"....Stop applying religion.

Liberals make me sick. They are all about the end game and anything goes. It’s all about controlling people lives and making them comply with their way of life. They are exactly what Christianity and our Constitution in NOT about. And its only via subversion and lies can they get what they want. Obama is the poster child with Pelosi and Reed as his liars in crime. Obama, Pelosi & Reed, the real Axis of Evil.

Cabin4

First, I'm am a Christian,
Second , I'm not a liberal.
Third, I didn't "evoke" anything.  I am trying to reconcile my christian beliefs with what is going on in the world around me at present specifically the HC plan being put forward.

I came to this thread and conversation hoping to have an open debate and discussion of idea's so I can civilly gain knowledge and understanding from others with similar and different points of view.

I also find your comments divisive, and Self centered. They contribute very little to this discussion at large , as they only set about to incite and cast hate and dispersions at a juncture when all need to come together to solve real world issues. From your point of view any liberal person (or any person that has any deviation to what you believe for that matter ) must be a non christian and "hate Jesus".

I will continue to go on believing the way you come across in your writing is not what is truly in your heart. I am sure you are a more compassionate person than your postings are depicting you as.

Peace 

[Cabin4]

The Liberals love to play the Jesus card when it serves their own selfish interest even know it has no application to the subject. All of a sudden, the Liberals got religion.....Ha Ha. They hate Jesus, Christianity and regligion in general . When a conservative envokes scripture or religion, the Liberlas cry "1 st amendment----speration of church and state"....Stop applying religion.

Liberals make me sick. They are all about the end game and anything goes. It’s all about controlling people lives and making them comply with their way of life. They are exactly what Christianity and our Constitution in NOT about. And its only via subversion and lies can they get what they want. Obama is the poster child with Pelosi and Reed as his liars in crime. Obama, Pelosi & Reed, the real Axis of Evil.

Cabin4

I also find your comments divisive, and Self centered. They contribute very little to this discussion at large , as they only set about to incite and cast hate and dispersions at a juncture when all need to come together to solve real world issues. From your point of view any liberal person (or any person that has any deviation to what you believe for that matter ) must be a non christian and "hate Jesus".

You can blame my attitude about Liberals on the leadership you put in office. If I recall, they refer to me as un-American, Nazi and a racist because I don't want a big government run amuck health care system that will raise my taxes and decrease the quality of care. So I'm through trying to be civil while the leadership you support calls me a Nazi. Obama himself, cannot even properly defend this POS legislation. He still have never answered the key critical questions that any reasonable American should be asking. I’m suppose to just sit down and shut up while the Libs run us into the ground..

My wife and I recently attended a town hall meeting here where people like me were called racists Nazi’s by your fellow liberals of such high standard. In addition, my wife and I were threaten by  police officers at this meeting for holding up respectful signs while the Liberals held up signs and were never even approached by the police. Not surprising, since the congress moron holding the meeting supported pay increases for law enforcement while the rest of America has pay for it in the midst of an economic recession!!

So don't lecture me on all this civility BS while your counter parts are ripping us & constitution to shreds with their mis-characterizations of likeminded people and portraying a total misrepresentation of this legislations output. The Liberals are lying through their teeth and all you have is criticism of someone like me trying to defend against the on-sought of Liberal lies.

Just for the record, I am not a compasionate person. There's no reason for me to be compasionate anymore. I don't care if I come off as divisive. There is nothing more divisive then this legislation and the efforts of the Liberals to control my life and the lives of others at every turn.

[ironglow]

  First off..Socialism is antithetical to Christian doctrine. Yes, we are to help our fellow man (esp believers)  if they cannot help themselves. Still, if a person is just plain lazy and refuses to work though totally able..we are to refuse that "help" (2 Thess 3:6-13)
  I cannot speak for Cabin4..but I am guessing that he would not have trouble helping those who CANNOT help themselves..but that is a far cry from those who WILL NOT help themselves. I've worked hard all my life, and money did not "flow easily" to me, still I never felt bad about helping those who are ill, handicapped or even temporarily out of work..and I do so on my own..
   Still I am not anxious to furnish freebies for those who are basically healthy and REFUSE to work, or furnish free hospitalization to some drug pusher who gets shot by another drug pusher. They probably make more cash money in one night than I ever made in a week, but since their "wages" are illegal, immoral and criminal..they are never reported..and so, in govt eyes, they are "poor".
  I have no great desire to pay for free services for those who make very good wages, but would rather spend it on a car, ATV, surf boards & other toys..while "allowing" the rest of us the distinct priviledge of paying their hospital bills when they screw up.
  Problem is, the federal government cannot distinguish between deserving and undeserving..while the local church (the entity Scripture speaks to) knows who is truly deserving and who is a "leech"..and they should not be treated alike.
  The plan the Dems are batting about is one that would ration care to the older Americans, most of whom have worked and paid taxes all their lives.
  Dick Morris in an interview the other night, said that the "uninsured" are not nearly as large a group as is claimed, if you do not count the illegal aliens. However, Morris says that the dirty little secret is the Obama plan wants to take coverage from older Americans and give it to illegal aliens instead..
  
    I'm with Cabin4..


  BTW: A known debating fact..Very often when they know they are losing the debate...certain people in desperation, resort to name-calling...

[teamnelson]

In addition, my wife and I were threaten by  police officers at this meeting for holding up respectful signs while the Liberals held up signs and were never even approached by the police.

This is "fairness" doctrine at work. Fairness means that in order to right the inequities of the American past, those who previously enjoyed the majority voice (and probably still are the majority) must "stop talking and get out of the way." Because it's "our turn now." So rather than everyone equally having a voice in the marketplace of ideas, the losers lose their 1st Amendment (and 2nd, 3rd, 4th ...) rights.

I'm following my copy of Animal Farm closely to predict what happens next - I think we kill the farmer, but I'm not sure.

[scootrd]

The Liberals love to play the Jesus card when it serves their own selfish interest even know it has no application to the subject. All of a sudden, the Liberals got religion.....Ha Ha. They hate Jesus, Christianity and regligion in general . When a conservative envokes scripture or religion, the Liberlas cry "1 st amendment----speration of church and state"....Stop applying religion.

Liberals make me sick. They are all about the end game and anything goes. It’s all about controlling people lives and making them comply with their way of life. They are exactly what Christianity and our Constitution in NOT about. And its only via subversion and lies can they get what they want. Obama is the poster child with Pelosi and Reed as his liars in crime. Obama, Pelosi & Reed, the real Axis of Evil.

Cabin4

I also find your comments divisive, and Self centered. They contribute very little to this discussion at large , as they only set about to incite and cast hate and dispersions at a juncture when all need to come together to solve real world issues. From your point of view any liberal person (or any person that has any deviation to what you believe for that matter ) must be a non christian and "hate Jesus".

You can blame my attitude about Liberals on the leadership you put in office. If I recall, they refer to me as un-American, Nazi and a racist because I don't want a big government run amuck health care system that will raise my taxes and decrease the quality of care. So I'm through trying to be civil while the leadership you support calls me a Nazi. Obama himself, cannot even properly defend this POS legislation. He still have never answered the key critical questions that any reasonable American should be asking. I’m suppose to just sit down and shut up while the Libs run us into the ground..

My wife and I recently attended a town hall meeting here where people like me were called racists Nazi’s by your fellow liberals of such high standard. In addition, my wife and I were threaten by  police officers at this meeting for holding up respectful signs while the Liberals held up signs and were never even approached by the police. Not surprising, since the congress moron holding the meeting supported pay increases for law enforcement while the rest of America has pay for it in the midst of an economic recession!!

So don't lecture me on all this civility BS while your counter parts are ripping us & constitution to shreds with their mis-characterizations of likeminded people and portraying a total misrepresentation of this legislations output. The Liberals are lying through their teeth and all you have is criticism of someone like me trying to defend against the on-sought of Liberal lies.

I suppose a Peace farewell would be in order. But after that garbage I just can't see how it could apply.

Cabin4

Again , I am not a liberal, They are not my counterparts, nor are they my "fellow Liberals".
Also I did not put Obama in office, and never said I supported this leadership.
And BTW n one ever asked me what I "label" myself as and who or what I stand for.
You just assume, and then let you emotions get the best of you.

I certainly don't want you to sit down and shut up.
I value all Constructive opinions and viewpoints.
No one should ever call anyone a racist or Nazi if they are not one.
But this is a time for cool heads and civility to prevail while this country works through tough issues.
I was hoping when I started contributing to this HC discussion this would be the place of open dialog where
I could read others and help me reconcile My Christan beliefs with the changes going on around me.

I was the one who was wrong, apparently , there is no room for civil discord, only name calling and
the need to keep all of America divided.

You may have this post back and continue bashing whoever is it you are against without having any real
exchange of dialog or ideas.

And oh BTW , I'm a veteran and thank god for the VA (even with all there problems) You know that big Gov't run operation.
Without it Veterans would be more screwed than they already are. Thank you for voting not to increase benefits to veterans and against the GI bIll John McCain Yet Obama supported. . So you see Hypocrisy is on all sides of the isles.
This is my last post on this thread. Have at it. I will seek HC discussions elsewhere.

Good Luck and God Bless,
Peace.  

[jimster]

"Yes, we are to help our fellow man (esp believers)"

Yes we are.  I can find nowhere in the bible where there is a third party in between called the government, where you give them your two coats, and the third party gives the person in need a shirt out of it.  

Legislation is usually nothing but a way to grow government, especially this health care deal.  The bigger they get, the more money they take, it's a circle that's hard to break.  Government uses all the phrases to sound like they care about people and want to help them, but they don't of course, they just need more money to funnel into questionable places.  

People are getting smart though, and reading what their staff and lawyers are writing.  There lies their problem.  That leaves only two possibilities.
Either Obama and White House staff are liars...or they are un-informed....choose your poison, but either one is bad news.  I personally think they are very informed.  That only leaves "liar" left for me.

[jimster]

some info on doctors pay

Brain/doctor:$450,00-$650,000
Anesthesiology: $306,964
Surgery, general: $255,438
Obstetrics/gynecology: $233,061
Psychiatry: $163,144
Internal medicine: $155,530
Pediatrics/adolescent medicine: $152,690
Family practice (without obstetrics): $150,267
(This is from the Medical Group Management Association, Physician Compensation and Production Report, 2003

Costs
Becoming a doctor is not cheap. Depending on your location and specialty, medical school alone can cost between $50,000 and $150,000, and that’s only tuition. Textbooks, housing, meals, equipment and fees are added expenses.

Liability
The premium differences between these areas and those in other parts of the country are dramatic. In Wisconsin, a family doctor who delivers babies and performs cesarean sections pays about $14,000 a year for coverage that extends to infinity. Family physicians with far less coverage pay three to five times as much in some other states. Physicians in other specialties are suffering, too. In southern Florida, obstetricians spend $209,000 for $250,000 in coverage and, in effect, are essentially self-insured.

So it appears if a doctors pay is about 150K....he could very well be paying a large chunk of that in insurance...plus TAXES...plus education. 
sounds to me like it would be a whole lot easier being in Congress?

How about some Tort (older info, probably much worse now)
The cost of the U.S. tort system for 1994 was $152 billion. Over the past ten years, it has increased 125%.

Between 1930 and 1994 U.S. tort costs have grown almost four times faster than the rate of growth of the U.S. economy.

The U.S. tort system is the most expensive in the industrialized world. U.S. tort costs are 2.2% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP), substantially higher than that of other developed countries studied and two and a half times the average of those studied.

The U.S. tort system returns less than 50 cents on the dollar and less than 25 cents for actual economic loss to claimants.

Tillinghaust-Towers Perrin. Tort Costs Trends: An International Perspective, (New York, New York, 1995)

I have an idea....lets let Congress do just a couple of things....instead of 1200 pages of crap that solves nothing and expands the current problems.
Tort reform...maybe 5 pages at most?  If Congress and Obama can handle this..we'll give them something else to try.  One thing at a time.
 
Remember...Obama is very inexperienced and must start very slowly...Congress are crooks and he needs to reign them in a bit.
As of now...our president has lost control of all of Congress and the HC, not to mention nothing he has done so far turned out good or has worked.
He needs to slow down and back up...

[Cabin4]

The Liberals love to play the Jesus card when it serves their own selfish interest even know it has no application to the subject. All of a sudden, the Liberals got religion.....Ha Ha. They hate Jesus, Christianity and regligion in general . When a conservative envokes scripture or religion, the Liberlas cry "1 st amendment----speration of church and state"....Stop applying religion.

Liberals make me sick. They are all about the end game and anything goes. It’s all about controlling people lives and making them comply with their way of life. They are exactly what Christianity and our Constitution in NOT about. And its only via subversion and lies can they get what they want. Obama is the poster child with Pelosi and Reed as his liars in crime. Obama, Pelosi & Reed, the real Axis of Evil.

Cabin4

I also find your comments divisive, and Self centered. They contribute very little to this discussion at large , as they only set about to incite and cast hate and dispersions at a juncture when all need to come together to solve real world issues. From your point of view any liberal person (or any person that has any deviation to what you believe for that matter ) must be a non christian and "hate Jesus".

You can blame my attitude about Liberals on the leadership you put in office. If I recall, they refer to me as un-American, Nazi and a racist because I don't want a big government run amuck health care system that will raise my taxes and decrease the quality of care. So I'm through trying to be civil while the leadership you support calls me a Nazi. Obama himself, cannot even properly defend this POS legislation. He still have never answered the key critical questions that any reasonable American should be asking. I’m suppose to just sit down and shut up while the Libs run us into the ground..

My wife and I recently attended a town hall meeting here where people like me were called racists Nazi’s by your fellow liberals of such high standard. In addition, my wife and I were threaten by  police officers at this meeting for holding up respectful signs while the Liberals held up signs and were never even approached by the police. Not surprising, since the congress moron holding the meeting supported pay increases for law enforcement while the rest of America has pay for it in the midst of an economic recession!!

So don't lecture me on all this civility BS while your counter parts are ripping us & constitution to shreds with their mis-characterizations of likeminded people and portraying a total misrepresentation of this legislations output. The Liberals are lying through their teeth and all you have is criticism of someone like me trying to defend against the on-sought of Liberal lies.

I suppose a Peace farewell would be in order. But after that garbage I just can't see how it could apply.

Again , I am not a liberal, They are not my counterparts, nor are they my "fellow Liberals".
Also I did not put Obama in office, and never said I supported this leadership.
And BTW n one ever asked me what I "label" myself as and who or what I stand for.
You just assume, and then let you emotions get the best of you.

I certainly don't want you to sit down and shut up.
I value all Constructive opinions and viewpoints.
No one should ever call anyone a racist or Nazi if they are not one.
But this is a time for cool heads and civility to prevail while this country works through tough issues.
I was hoping when I started contributing to this HC discussion this would be the place of open dialog where
I could read others and help me reconcile My Christan beliefs with the changes going on around me.

I was the one who was wrong, apparently , there is no room for civil discord, only name calling and
the need to keep all of America divided.

You may have this post back and continue bashing whoever is it you are against without having any real
exchange of dialog or ideas.

And oh BTW , I'm a veteran and thank god for the VA (even with all there problems) You know that big Gov't run operation.
Without it Veterans would be more screwed than they already are. Thank you for voting not to increase benefits to veterans and against the GI bIll John McCain Yet Obama supported. . So you see Hypocrisy is on all sides of the isles.
This is my last post on this thread. Have at it. I will seek HC discussions elsewhere.

Good Luck and God Bless,
Peace.  

Just remember, the Liberals already did the dividing on this national debate. Anyone opposed to national government run health care is  a Nazi. Perhaps if we had not waisted so much money an the so called $850billion dollar stimulus bill and bail outs, we might have more money to take care of our vets.

[ironglow]

 Scoot;
  Still trying to figure out to whom you were speaking in your last post. I sure didn't call anybody names and the only name calling I saw in Cabin's post, was simply reciting names that he and other conservatives were called by liberals. As I said, when the libs (in this case) have clearly lost the HC debate..they initiate the name calling.
  My post only concerned facts & etc..and a single Scripture reference which points out that Socialism is antithetical to Christian doctrine.
  If you have a better argument..present it !
   I don't know just how well informed you are, but here is a sample of the radicals you are backing..hear them in their own words .
  It only takes a couple minutes and is well worth the time...

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNIVbN-tv3M

[Cabin4]

Cabin:

What the heck is wrong with you? The cost that doctors pay for their annual medical litigation insurance is passed on to patience’s. The typical doctor pays in excess of $60k per year in just medical malpractice insurance. Some doctors in some states are pay in excess of $200k per year for the same policy. The fear that doctors have from being sued by patience’s for BS issues causes doctors to perform tests & procedures that likely do not have to be taken. Doctors are performing these tests and procedure as part of their continuing defense against potentially being sued. Tests and procedures that DO NOT have to be done are being done which drives up the costs. It’s not the whopper judgments in the court room that cause the costs it’s the insurance premiums that doctors pay and the defensive unneeded tests & procedures they order for their patience’s.

Here you are turning emotional again when your feathers get ruffled, which is basically whenever somebody disagrees with your silly rants. You also resort to manipulation or distortion of real data. Malpractice total costs amount to little of the total national HC bill, and are little to pay for some form of oversight to medical practice quality control. Unless of course you would prefer legions of government officials overseeing HC quality via socialized bureaucracies.  Typical doctors earn an average of $145K/year (according to Skarke in a different thread) and so typically they do not pay typically 60K to 200k for malfeasance insurance.  They pay malfeasance insurance at about the same rate you or I would pay for running a construction company attempting to limit liability exposure.  Current malfeasance insurance helps protect consumers in our type of society if they were critically damaged by improper or shoddy medical care, otherwise many of these damaged patients would become burdens of the state. By the way, malpractice is considered EPIDEMIC in the USA  AND IS A LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH IN AND OUT OF HOSPITALS. If you want to drill down on cost you need to get a handle on admisistration cost, middlemen now siphoning 3-40% of costs to insurance overhead and profits...siphoning like a giant squid with it's beak held tight in the body corporal by a head of tentacles.   


From wikipedia: “Malpractice has both direct and indirect costs, including "defensive medicine." Studies place the direct and indirect costs of malpractice between 5% and 10% of total U.S. medical costs, as described below:[20]
About 10 percent of the cost of medical services is linked to malpractice lawsuits and more intensive diagnostic testing due to defensive medicine, according to a January 2006 report prepared by PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP for the insurers’ group America’s Health Insurance Plans...The figures were taken from a March 2003 study by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services that estimated the direct cost of medical malpractice was 2 percent of the nation’s health-care spending and said defensive medical practices accounted for 5 percent to 9 percent of the overall expense." ’


Moreover doctors and hospitals are doing numerous tests and procedures because of fee-for-service payment schedules, AND the fact that this makes our HC services among the best in the world…as you tell us constantly….so you want to break this up….because you don‘t like lawyers and our oversight system?
Actual malfeasance awards in this country are far less than European awards btw.

The current HC system update programming has enough to do right now and does not need to take on medical civil law review at this time. Anybody thinking such is just a pissed off sour individual wanting their selfish way and calling themselves a so-called conservative…which of course is far far from conservatism.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Scootrd:  By now you will have noticed if perchance you want a discussion of HC reform, and even see a need due to deficiencies and problems, you are likely to be called  the dreaded ‘liberal’ word by emotional so-called conservatives of me-I-got-mine-jack-and-don’t-want-no-change-fear rules school of status quo. Your concept of religion and faith will even become fair game for these statist practicing ‘selective cognition’ at its worse.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Team Nelson: Well, I disagree with your post #144.  I think families have children and families want healthy and happy children and always have and always will. I think this is natural and meant to be; and I think if the need arises it is also natural to approach this collectively. Basically, I think healthy, happy and caring is the natural state of the human mind for all that have joined the human race; any other point of view(such as that we see above) is unnatural, because by definition anything that is harmful, deleterious, or promotes decline of the species is pathological.
Furthermore, I believe Jesus was the most politically active spiritual guide yet sent to us, and was in the face of the ruling Theocracy of his time like white on rice. Because he connected up things….didn’t disconnect things.

.TM7

10% is no small number TM7. Thats likly enough to cover 100% (roughly 23 million)  of all the Americans without a policy today.

Do the math: 260 miilion have a policy. If you could cut that cost by 10%, the econmy would reallocate the use of that money back into the provate sector where a real job would be created. That real job would likly have health care coverage for that person and their family. Find a way to save 10% of the cost of 1/7 of our economy and that is a big number.

What about cross state line provider policy competition? Maybe that drives another 5% reduction into the system. The point is that there are a number of things our government should be focusing on to reduce costs that are regulatory driven.

[billy_56081]

TM, do you think that HHHcare will find it a good invesment of resources to provide the high dollar health care options to a guy who say is around 60, has heart disease and has very little tax paying days ahead?

[ironglow]

 TM;
  No, that wasn't divisive of me, because the Christian relationship to HC was not brought up by me ..but by Scootrd, who is the one that is most concerned in "divisiveness"..see his post # 121.
 
  When you ask if Christianity frowns upon charging interest on loans..do you plan on borrowing or loaning ?

  You ask what kind of health care system Jesus would recommend..Read the Bible..it is quite well covered..besides he carried a pretty good Trauma-Care kit with Him..

  Actually, as always..when I employ Scripture, it is only for those who value the Scriptures..anyone who doesn't value it can ignore it.
  Rather like the libs who tell us if we don't like scummy TV we can turn the dial..



 BTW: If anyone claims they want to reform health care and do not start with bringing the lawyers into line..they are not serious at reforming health care..they are only trying to make a "power grab".
 

 

[Cabin4]

Secondly, if the public offered HC insurance would be so poor, so inefficient, so terrible...what does private insurance companies have to fear.?

..TM7

The legislation on the floor would eventually kill private insurance by making illegal to have under ca number of certain circumstances. If you are new to the job market, you are not allowed to buy private, you must buy the government option. So by default, we will have the single payer system that Obama said he wants. You really need to review this aspect of the bill. WHy are the Liberals trying to kill private insurance? Answer: They want the single payer government run system that Omaba said he wanted over the next 10 to 20 years. This aspect of the bill is designed to achieve destruction of private insurance.

If the liberals really want to provide coverage for the 23 million Americans, come up with a governemt sponsored policy they can buy via private companies. Elimiante the state boarder issue for insurance companies so they can reach out to new markets and compete with their insurance offering. Do tort reform.

[billy_56081]

Its kind of funny that those that are pushing for HHH's commucare are the ones that will be rationed out of health care. A guy that is about 60 years old who has chronic heart disease, will be looked at as an investment with little or no return, (very few years left to pay taxes) and will be told that asperin therapy is the best treatment available and sent home to die.

The problem with socialism is that eventually there are not enough people working to pay the bills.

The failure of the communes of the 60's and 70's proves this.

Socialism works in China because the people are either forced to work or will starve.

[ironglow]

Even if not ALL here have caught on ..let's have a look;

  A) Obamanation has taken over the auto industry

  B)      "              "       taken over banks

 C)       "              "       taken over real estate

  D)      "              "      declared war on coal & oil

  E)      "              "       decided that until or even if we can develop feasible alternatives to same..we will be buying from his Muslim bros.

  F)      "              "       TRIED to desert wounded veterans ..make them buy their own medical insurance.

 G)       "              "       decided that the "global warming myth" is true and is inhibiting business here in the U.S.

 H)       "              "        tried to put their lying, forging associates (ACORN) in charge of the coming census

 I)        "              "        intentionally put our nation into crippling debt..which our grandchildren will bear.

 J)       "               "       to do their best to humiliate the U.S...by apologizing to every two-bit tyrant dictator they can find.

      We have seen these "deaths of a thousand cuts" along with many others.. being perpetrated against our freedom..and now they want power of life and death over their "subjects"....
        
        Just what does it take to make some people to "wake up"..?

[DDZ]

In a nut shell the Obamanation wants to extend the welfare nanny state that has already wrecked our society. If socialism isn't creating the utopia they want, it will always be the mean conservatives fault, for not wanting government to take care of us.
 I'm afraid that some people will never wake up. I guess they just can't grasp the idea of personal responsibility. I sometimes wonder if liberals even know what it is. 

[Casull]

Now, we have about the best paid doctors in the world, most in private business for themselves, and we have the best geewhiz technologies around I'm told. So why is it we have a doctor to patient ratio of 1:418; where as in socialized Euro government employeed the doctor ratio is about 1:300?

This doesn't even make sense.  What does one have to do with the other?  But, if you want to look at that way, maybe it means that US doctors are better and it doesn't take as many to do the job (you know, like comparing the work output of American workers with their European counterparts).   

[billy_56081]

IG....isn't it alittle devisive on your part to use the Christian religion and Christ to argue for maintaining some kind status quo in HC ? 

Secondly, does the Christian religion in a stricter sense frown upon the charging of interests for loans?
 
And finally, what kind of HC system do you think Christ would create to care for the sick, elderly, children, and in infirm in this day and age.?

Insurance companies and the HC industry have now arrived at the conclusion that all the immigres in this country have put in jeopardy our existing HC hospitals and are clogging the system. 2ndly, doctors, hospitals, including state run hospitals, are tired of not being paid by these illegals and ER visitors. 3rdly, private insurance companies look at this demographic as a hitherto ignored profit center, and which is high time to exploit..regardless of who foots the bill...there is alot of money to be made from this sector when they get included in the system. 4thly, there is a whole lot of NWO-Global reasons why they (i.e. both parties of The Party) want to include immigrants in this system now; but we will save that discussion for another day.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Billy if you're chubby or just plain fat and your heart and circ system is clogged with fat I suggest forgoing sloshing beer, over eating, and over indulgence at bar-b-cues. See a dietician or a doctor, even if you have to dig in your own pocket for a change, and learn how to exercise a little self restraint and learn how to exercise physically as well.  Good luck...you'll need it...


..TM7

TM I was not talking about me. I think we know why you avoided my question for so long.

[billy_56081]

So TM how about you spreading some more misinformation about tort costs? Are you so desperate for health care that you will lie and make things up? Hey just tell everyone the truth why you who are against the gov. in all other things. Why TM do you want the goverment in charge of health care? I am sure we can go back and drege up hundreds of posts to support what I say as true.

Now tell us all why you personally are so desperate for this socialised crap?

[Cabin4]

Secondly, if the public offered HC insurance would be so poor, so inefficient, so terrible...what does private insurance companies have to fear.?

..TM7

The legislation on the floor would eventually kill private insurance by making illegal to have under ca number of certain circumstances. If you are new to the job market, you are not allowed to buy private, you must buy the government option. So by default, we will have the single payer system that Obama said he wants. You really need to review this aspect of the bill. WHy are the Liberals trying to kill private insurance? Answer: They want the single payer government run system that Omaba said he wanted over the next 10 to 20 years. This aspect of the bill is designed to achieve destruction of private insurance.

If the liberals really want to provide coverage for the 23 million Americans, come up with a governemt sponsored policy they can buy via private companies. Elimiante the state boarder issue for insurance companies so they can reach out to new markets and compete with their insurance offering. Do tort reform.

.
Medicare and medicaid didn't kill private insurance companies off. I dare say more than half here are on medicare, or look forward to it at some point, and don't want to ever give it up. That is what they are talking about doing...extending medicare.

....TM7
.

You are wrong. Read the house bill. The bill is strategically designed to kill the private insurance option. Proof, that this president and his cronies want a government run single payer system despite all thier lies to the American people.

This bill is nothng about health care, its about control and socialisam.

[Casull]

Sounds a little like paranoia

That's freakin hilarious, coming from the guy that thinks George Bush blew up the WTC.  Thanks tm, I needed a good laugh today.