Author Topic: Cut shells for shotguns (Read 29908 times)

srussell · « **Reply #60 on:** April 29, 2011, 10:12:43 AM »

if your worried about over pressure with cut shells. think about shooting a 12gage slug through a full choke barrel same thing and fire arms manufactures aren't going to put out something that will get them sued

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #61 on:** April 29, 2011, 10:16:47 AM »

Quote from: srussell on April 29, 2011, 10:12:43 AM

if your worried about over pressure with cut shells. think about shooting a 12gage slug through a full choke barrel same thing and fire arms manufactures aren't going to put out something that will get them sued

But a slug is .729 the fins on a foster style slug are there more to give a crush zone than to impart any king of spin to the slig.
But a slug at .729 going through a full choke that is .02 smaller as a full choke is a whole lot different than the hull that is greater than .775 being swaged to the same full choke of .709.
That would be like saying shooting a .357 bullet in a 9mm (.355) is not going to give you a pressure spike and I buy that.
But shooting a 9.3 MM (366 caliber) bullet in a 9mm is going to cause some headaches

srussell · « **Reply #62 on:** April 29, 2011, 05:43:03 PM »

you can shoot a slug through a extra full Turkey choke and not over pressure. and i would say the shot column will compress just like the slug. the lead slug is harder than the plastic shell

nomosendero · « **Reply #63 on:** May 02, 2011, 03:13:19 AM »

Just saw this thread. Dad taught us this as kids & alot of locals knew about it, of course we were hillbillies. We called them "rung shells".

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #64 on:** May 02, 2011, 09:10:46 AM »

Quote from: srussell on April 29, 2011, 10:12:43 AM

if your worried about over pressure with cut shells. think about shooting a 12gage slug through a full choke barrel same thing and fire arms manufactures aren't going to put out something that will get them sued

Most slugs are smaller in dia. than most full chokes. Foster slugs also have groves or rifling like cuts moulded into the slug for the lead to be squeezed into if compression occures. When you are talking a cut shell you start with a projectile that is larger than the bore ( note the shot charge less the shell has to be passed thru a forcing cone to get it of a size that matches the bore ) it matches the chamber. Depending on make up of the shell - wads , shot size and crimp you may have a projectile that is very un forgiving as to being compressed . Even though the end is open the pressure is applied to that end. I don't think a slug compares well in this case.
There are ways to make shells do as it is decribed here. There are wads or shot holders that are not split and Federal is marketing such a shell now.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #65 on:** May 02, 2011, 09:13:30 AM »

BTW with federals new wad the distance before the shot is released can be adjusted. 10 yards , 20 yards etc.
With regard to the shot gun we are seeing the best there has ever been.

nomosendero · « **Reply #66 on:** May 03, 2011, 05:24:06 PM »

I don't have a way to pressure test these, but doubt Veral would knowingly mention an unsafe practice. I understand the diameter, but as mentioned a slud in an ultra tight full choke would not be as malleable either.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #67 on:** May 04, 2011, 03:21:49 AM »

I would think pure lead with groves to move into would be more malleable than plastic wraped tight packed lead . In a new bbl. I doubt either would be much problem as most bores are large if not back bored and choke is relative to bore .

nomosendero · « **Reply #68 on:** May 04, 2011, 02:43:13 PM »

Who knows without equipment, I doubt either is a big deal

Veral · « **Reply #69 on:** May 04, 2011, 08:14:55 PM »

What few realize about shotcharges going down the tube is that the side pressure against the bore is terrific. With the old type of unbuffered, flat wad shells I used as a kid, much of the shot was worn almost in half, which caused it to fly wild, or if close enough to hit game, it would not penetrate very deep.

With modern shot cups barrel friction is far lower than that early ammo, and when the rounds are cut, I doubt that pressures would even begin to reach what those old loads did.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #70 on:** May 05, 2011, 02:37:29 AM »

Tried it yesterday, it works very well.

Veral · « **Reply #71 on:** May 07, 2011, 08:12:39 PM »

I get extreme pleasure out seeing how many hits there are on this post.

An uncle told me how to do it when I was about 16, as I recall, and told me it was all they had for deer during the depression. I've found it a very pleasant thing to know though I've never really had to use it on game. (I know many others who I taught it to who have with excellent results though.) If I had the power to do it I'd make trying them required project for every hunter training class in the US!
Down through the years I've bought factory shotgun fodder for all my hunting and have not failed to test every new kind of ammo by cutting and shooting a few. This just so I know I have a reliable heavy hitter when out shotgunning. So, this knowledge could have saved my life for 50 years, but hasen't, I'm glad to report. But I've always enjoyed the testing, because they are so accurate and fun to shoot. I've only had 1 shotgun with a barrel too rough to shoot them in 55 years of playing with many, many guns.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #72 on:** July 05, 2011, 02:36:20 PM »

Quote from: mcwoodduck on April 29, 2011, 10:16:47 AM

Quote from: srussell on April 29, 2011, 10:12:43 AM
if your worried about over pressure with cut shells. think about shooting a 12gage slug through a full choke barrel same thing and fire arms manufactures aren't going to put out something that will get them sued
But a slug is .729 the fins on a foster style slug are there more to give a crush zone than to impart any king of spin to the slig.
But a slug at .729 going through a full choke that is .02 smaller as a full choke is a whole lot different than the hull that is greater than .775 being swaged to the same full choke of .709.
That would be like saying shooting a .357 bullet in a 9mm (.355) is not going to give you a pressure spike and I buy that.

But shooting a 9.3 MM (366 caliber) bullet in a 9mm is going to cause some headaches

Many years ago P.O.Ackley conducted a test with a .270 pressure gun. He first fired a normal load with the normal 150 grain .277" bullet and recorded pressures.
He then opened the chamber throat and fired the same powder load with 150 grain 7mm bullets.
Then went to .308, .311, .323, and finally .358" 150 grain bullets, all over the same powder charge and noted very little difference in pressure, for the most part the oversize bullets produced lower pressures. He concluded that so long as the chamber neck and throat are large enough to freely accept the round it makes no difference if the bullet is well over bore size.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #73 on:** July 11, 2011, 05:31:06 AM »

seems like the ''step'' at the end of the chamber might open the crimp

obviously not based on the reports

has any one tried to remove or tapper this step
or done any modifications
to have a dedicated ''cut shell'' barrel
seems like cut the choke off the gun would help

how about a little online competition here
start a thread where we can post targets at 50 and 100 yards....maybe more

Veral · « **Reply #74 on:** July 16, 2011, 10:51:48 PM »

The taper or leade from chamber down to barrel diameter has never been a problem with any of the shotguns which I've tried cut shells in. Probably at least 20 guns. Nor has a full choke made any difference in accuracy or caused the 'bullets' to rupture. I've only had one gun which broke up the shell, and that wasy many years ago before plastic hulls, which I believe would proabably have gone through it just fine. It was a 16 guage which a prior owner had shot steel ball bearings through, I presume. Gouges in the barrel, which ran full lenght of the barrel, didn't hurt shot loads, but they chewed up cut shells. I learned that the hard way, when I tried for a nice forkhorn at abut 50 yards. He dropped at the shot, but wasn't there when I walked up to where he went down. The load of 6 shot was scattered on the trees behind where he stood. So he just got burned with the shot. I've tested cut shells in every new shotgun I've ever had since that time, before hunting with it..

rockwool · « **Reply #75 on:** August 01, 2011, 04:07:23 PM »

Can anbody contribute on wax slugs. adding wax to shot to turn it into a slug

45-70.gov · « **Reply #76 on:** August 01, 2011, 05:48:56 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBWWqXVbAfA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqosJmUS-0

rockwool · « **Reply #77 on:** August 01, 2011, 06:50:16 PM »

yes. seen those 2 videos. other than that would anyone have done it them selves.

Veral · « **Reply #78 on:** August 01, 2011, 09:16:33 PM »

I read about this when I was in my teens. It was a depression measure to turn bird loads into something that would take a deer or bear, same as the cut shell was.
The recommendation was to open up factory shells, pour in wax and close the crimp back down. It may work in mild weather if beeswax is used, but it won't work with parrifin in any weather, nor beeswax in cold weather. I did it back before shot sleeves were invented, and shot cups, or plastic wads came much later. They might help a little, but I doubt it. If I were to experiment with it again I'd try toilet bowl wax. But I"m NOT going to experiment when cut shells work so extremely well and completely fool proof.

rockwool · « **Reply #79 on:** August 03, 2011, 01:54:29 PM »

i noticed that the shell of a 12 gauge is bigger then the end of the barrel. is this compansated by the plastic compressing itself or does it really matter

SteveHawaii · « **Reply #80 on:** August 06, 2011, 12:03:17 PM »

Here's a good YouTube video on cut-shells:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU

KABAR2 · « **Reply #81 on:** August 24, 2011, 02:23:45 PM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on September 15, 2009, 07:52:41 AM

can we get some one on here to do this on YOUTUBE!!

or at least find a link where it has been done.....i looked with no luck

that load in a coach double would really be a close range stopping gun

There are video's out there already someone had these on another forum.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU&feature=related

nicholst55 · « **Reply #82 on:** August 28, 2011, 10:42:58 PM »

A useful discussion, IMHO. Whether or not one chooses to use this technique, it is another 'tool' to have in your tool box. And Veral, I share your views about what we are currently experiencing being the new Great Depression, and the cause of it.

Veral · « **Reply #83 on:** September 05, 2011, 09:19:11 PM »

Re, the ROCKWOOL post with concern about a shell being larger than end of the barrel.

It squeezes down with no problem whatsoever through any choke. I've shot them in an extra full choke which I put on a gun with no problems.

For several of my early years of shotgunning, the ammo had felt wads so that the lead shot rubbed the barrel so hard that much of it was worn away and flattened almost halfway. This caused extreme side pressure inside the barrels, with no problem. Modern plastic hulls slide easier than shot ever did and create less internal side pressure than early shot.

RMc · « **Reply #84 on:** September 20, 2011, 09:32:33 PM »

Quote from: srussell on April 29, 2011, 05:43:03 PM

you can shoot a slug through a extra full Turkey choke and not over pressure. and i would say the shot column will compress just like the slug. the lead slug is harder than the plastic shell

Your comment on shooting a slug through an extra full choke would only be valid with the soft lead thimble known as a foster type rifled slug.

If a bore diarmeter, hard cast, heat treated slug (designed for rifled barrels only) were fired through a smoothbore with any choke constriction, barrel damage would result.

Veral · « **Reply #85 on:** October 12, 2011, 10:26:49 PM »

I've played with solid bullets through a full choke barrel, and the choke sized then down just fine with no barrel diameter change. However it did cause some leading in the choke because I didn't use any lube on the slugs I made, nor did they have lube grooves. I believe a grooved bullet and a good lube (LBT) the choke leading would be eliminated. However, a smooth bore won't shoot a slug designed for rifled barrels with any accuracy anyhow. A hollow base cup is needed to get stability in smoothbore guns.

The Old Redneck · « **Reply #86 on:** October 14, 2011, 12:02:28 AM »

Back in the early 70's I lived next to a guy that hunted everything with a 12 gauge and birdshot. He
had a house full of kids and hunted for meat. He killed several deer that I helped him skin and cutup.
The cut shells was his deer load and one was all it took per animal. I thought he was at point blank range from the way the wound channel looked. When he told me he was 50 yards at least that had my attention. He showed me how he cut shells and I had forgot about it till reading this thread. A slug has nothing on these rounds. I would use one in a heartbeat if the reason came up. It really eats up the insides of an animal, and all the energy is dumped there. A shot to the head neck area of a small doe almost took her head off. He said the shot on it was around 25 steps and the only clear shot he had. I would not feel like I was handicapped using one. Thanks Sir for a good thread and all the information you share.

Veral · « **Reply #87 on:** October 20, 2011, 09:01:37 PM »

I am absolutely delighted about the number of times this post has been read! I hope that everyone who reads it has or will pass it on to everyone they know. I believe it will be critical information in time to come, my belief based on the political postion of this nation.

You can stop worrying about pressure problems anywhere in the gun. Many millions of shotshells have been cut and shot, originally using paper hulls, with roll crimps, then star crimps, then plastic which are the best. If someone out there whould have had a problem, one of you readers would have heard obout it and said so by now. -- Cut shells used to be a legal deer ammo in Michigan, and listed in the game rules as such. Might still be, and even if not specifically banned, legal buckshot can be cut and remain legal. It probably being the most reliable and deadly cut shell one can make, though calling it most deadly would be hard to proove, as deer hit with any fine shot cut shell, through the chest, drop in their tracks every time.

To perhaps relax you a bit more about swage pressure in the choke. Many years ago I cut a 16 guage single barrel down to 18 1/2 inches, for easy carry in an auto.. But I didn't like the open choke bore, so I split the barrel lengthwise with a hacksaw, by hand, and closed the end down to an extra full choke diameter. The seams were gas welded with mild steel rod. The hole was rounded up by hammering the wide part till the bore measured fairly round, then I polished it well, so it looked like a factory choke inside. Now, if any of you are welders you will quickly admit that I weakened the barrel a LOT, compared to factory, and remember I choked it extra full! I shot a LOT of cut shells through that stubby gun and it never changed size up front or anywhere else. In fact, I welded a peep sight on the back of the barrel, and a bead which I filed to shape on the muzzle end. This a necessity because my choke 'leaned' a bit to one side, giving a poi maybe 6 inches off if sighted over the barrel as one would with a factory gun. My, my, what a deadly thing that was, on game, not to the shooter, nor dangerous.

If you don't clearly understand that I thinned the barrel considerably when I polished it up, and softened it dramatically with my welding and mild steel filler rod, ask an experianced welder so you KNOW I was shooting a very much weakened barrel. Now, please, no more fretting posts about pressure problems! Please???

cattleskinner · « **Reply #88 on:** October 28, 2011, 04:54:26 AM »

Veral,

It looks like it is still legal for the regular firearm season in Michigan if I am reading the regulations correct. Scroll down to the November 15-30 firearms deer season section.

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-153-10366_37141_37706-31578--,00.html

Veral · « **Reply #89 on:** October 31, 2011, 06:15:33 PM »

I was messing around with some 410 shells for a friend a while ago, and this is the first time I've ever tried cutting 410 shells.

I found that both the 3 inch and 2 1/2 inch shells have only a very short plastic wad between powder and shot, which makes it a bit difficult to cut them, as the cut must be placed quite precisely. Best way to find the right spot is to ruin one shell by shaving a piece of the hull lengthwise until shot. wad and powder are exposed, Then you know exactly where to place the cut.

Of the several brands and types of shellls this guy had, the home defense buckshot loads showed the best performance as they leave a nice long lightweight wad behind the shot to act as a 'tail".