Author Topic: Been doing some thinking... (Read 5354 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #30 on:** July 21, 2009, 03:56:27 AM »

refregiration in a simple form can be a box elevated off the ground in the shade wraped in cloth that has a drip bucket set over it as to keep it wet at all times . This is what many used years ago including the people on the Outer Banks of North Carolina .
Those who expect to live like nothing happened will be disappointed those who are willing to accept less and be happy will still enjoy life.

mannyrock · « **Reply #31 on:** July 21, 2009, 05:18:41 AM »

Refridgerators and freezers require LOTS of electricity. In a stressful situation, this would be extremely wasteful. Dig a springhouse, put your food in crocks, and set them down in the cold water to keep them cool (refridgerator temperatures). This system has worked well for 5,000 years or so. Refridgerators and freezers have only been in common use in America since the early 1940s.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #32 on:** July 21, 2009, 06:54:40 AM »

springs work well where they exist the box with wet cloth over it works where other methods don't exist .

gypsyman · « **Reply #33 on:** July 22, 2009, 02:24:32 AM »

Truely hope it never gets to this, one thing to remember. Gonna be cars,trucks, gas stations with gas and diesel in them. I wouldn't steal it, but the old saying, ''If you die first, we're splitting up your gear'', comes to mind.
I learned how to can, from my mother, who lived thru the great depression, and I think storing alot of your food that way, is the most convenient. If done properly, will last for years. Just put 21 chickens in the freezer. Have 6 laying hens for eggs. Will put up a rabbit hutch shortly. Raised them when I was young, and butchered with my brother. Good source of meat, easy to raise. gypsyman

Oldshooter · « **Reply #34 on:** July 22, 2009, 05:28:57 AM »

JUST A THOUGHT,

If you eleiminate the ferral cats and stray dogs around your place right now, you wont have to be eating them when push comes to shove. There will be more wild game available,(especially rabbits and birds) unless of course you like to eat cats and dogs?

There were some cats and dogs that decided to leave my area and the game is coming back, I saw two doe and two fawns in my yard yesterday!

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #35 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:05:00 AM »

One might want to take a vacation to visit an Amish community and study how they live and do things. I think there is one in Tennessee now, and of course Pennsylvania, and I think there are some in Ohio and Indiana. I still say having cold food and the ability to make ice would be nice even if it is a very small refrigerator. Frost free frig's and freezers are energy hogs, but those that are not frost free are much cheaper to operate, you just have to clean out the frost ice every so often. When you do you could use it to hand crank some ice cream.

scootrd · « **Reply #36 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:10:42 AM »

Quote from: Oldshooter on July 17, 2009, 07:58:25 AM

Good post mannyrock! the only thing you need to know about goats, as was told to me when i was investigating raising some is that from the time they are born they try everyday to find ways to commit suicide!

My grandmother had a big crock with lid in her utility room (not airconditioned) that she kept salt pork in year round it was never bad! the reason i know is i always went thru and pinched off a piece at the risk of a wood spoon upside my head!

Our goats are very little maintenance... They are able to convert a variety of grasses , Browse (twigs, Bark and such) pine needles and leaves with very little low nutritious substances into sustainable food sources. Also as small ruminants they will not eat a pasture bare.
preferring browse over pasture. They are small, compact and can provide meat , milk, Butter, soap , yogurt, and fiber for clothing.

Our chickens provide us daily supply of eggs .. and left to free range do quite well eating small bugs, grass hoppers , etc as a food source without supplementing with corn or feed. (,Ducks, and Geese, are also pretty easy to maintain. Goose eggs and Ducks eggs taste great pickled as well.) None of these guys require refrigeration as long as they are running around and can be eaten quickly after they are cooked. Goose and Duck Feathers can also be used as a by product when the time comes. I would assume Turkey' s (though I have none on the farm as of yet) would also be easy to maintain.

Our potbelly pigs also do quite well free ranging on grasses leaves Hay ,(wifes flower garden which she is not too keen on ) etc.. We do supplement their diets with feed (but that is by choice). The small pot bellies are nice because they require minimal space to maintain.
They are a great clean up crew able to eat what others will not.

I think the difficulty would be for most livestock is sustaining them through the long winter months without hay and supplementing with grains and oats and such when grasses are long gone .

Side Note: Goat waste can actually be compacted into small brick molds and left alone to dry for a few weeks can be burned just like firewood (no smell after it's dried). Makes a great alternative fuel source that can be burned in a wood stove with no creosote to worry about. Horse waste can accomplish the same alternative fuel source.

You don't need a freezer to store meat, fish etc in warmer months.. In colder months Nature provides the refrigeration

You can make meat soups and can it.
you can salt it down and store it in a Hole dug (root Cellar) into the earth lined with moss.
you can make jerky
you can smoke it.
The Koreans thinly fillet and air dry their fish and serve it with beer like we do with peanuts or pretzels
you can also pickle a lot of food and it stores quite well without refrigeration or spoilage for a long time.
Beans are also a high protein source that last a long time as well.
Potatoes (as well as other root vegetables parsnips, carrots, etc..are a good crop to grow as well ..zero maintenance.. make through a winter underground.

Mannyrock's suggestion of a spring house is a great one if there is a viable water source.
Also you could create a green house and extend your fresh vegetable growing for quite a while.

gypsyman · « **Reply #37 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:28:29 AM »

Living here in Ohio, about once a year, the wife and kids and I go to Amish country. About a 2 1/2 hour drive, and go to Lehmans.(There is a link to their website in an earlier post).They carry gas/propane appliances. Alot of the Amish have refrigerators and freezers that are natural gas/propane powered, like in RV's. They drill on thier farms, and pipe it into their house.
Probably the biggest expense would be to find out it you have natural gas on your property, and getting a driller in to do the work. I suppose different regulations would apply, depending on where you live. Not sure if the govt. could stop you from drilling on your own land.
I believe that a couple years ago, somebody told me that around here anyway,(Ohio area), drilling for a gas well started around $5,000 and went up, depending on how deep, permits,etc., etc. Something to look into. gypsyman

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #38 on:** July 22, 2009, 06:29:51 AM »

If you want a small frig then look at a propane /elec model it will work on either . You can get them for nat. gas also .

mannyrock · « **Reply #39 on:** July 22, 2009, 11:47:50 AM »

Some follow up info on small animals:

Rabbits, when properly cared for in cages, will have LOTS of fat on them when you butcher them. But, they need salt to live. So, as noted before, store up on lots of salt in whatever form possible.

Free-range chickens. I had a dozen chickens that I let free range on my farm. They stayed right next to the house during the day, and slept together (roosted) in a nearby oak at night.

THEN, a medium sized bobcat came along, and killed 9 of those chickens in 9 days. The cat would simply climb up the tree at night while the chickens were sleeping, grab one in its teeth, and jump out of the tree with it. At first I thought a coyote was getting them at dusk before they roosted, but I finally saw the cat prints around the base of the tree, and the small "impact" circle (with feathers) created by the cat jumping out of the tree with the bird.

Luckily, the game warden lived just down the road, and gave me an off-season kill permit for the cat. I took one of the remaining chickens, put it in a small wire cage, nailed the cage to the side of the tree, three feet off the ground, and put three steel traps under the cage, and covered them with leaves. At 10:00 that night, that cat was caught, and I shot it in the traps with a 20 gauge (no. 4 buck). The cat weighed 19 pounds.

My only point being, that sooner or later, free ranging small animals are going to be discovered by a predator, and that predator will not stop until it has killed every last one of them. Minks and weasels are also viciously effective killers and will kill several in a night.

I found that the more small animals I released, the more predators would appear!

Regards,
Mannyrock

scootrd · « **Reply #40 on:** July 22, 2009, 01:51:12 PM »

Quote from: mannyrock on July 22, 2009, 11:47:50 AM

My only point being, that sooner or later, free ranging small animals are going to be discovered by a predator, and that predator will not stop until it has killed every last one of them. Minks and weasels are also viciously effective killers and will kill several in a night.

I found that the more small animals I released, the more predators would appear!

Regards,
Mannyrock

This is so True .. along with our regular layers my wife picked one Black and one white silkie. Silkie's can't fly. One winter morning I went out to the barn the black one was dead .. All the meat eaten off her neck. I cleaned up the mess , and the next night I waited to hear a noise ... no noise .. went out next morning and the white one was dead. same way. Next night my dog Tessa heard the noise (I didn't ) grabbed a flashlight and pistol and let the dog loose ...she immediately honed in on the culprit. Ermine (white winter coat , Black tip) she cornered it in the barn.. I called her back and did it in. If I hadn't, no doubt it would have returned night after night until all the layers were gone.

In the past we have also had trouble with skunks. Didn't bother the birds but for a period of time we actually had to buy store bought eggs because the skunk was getting them all and I couldn't catch him in the act. But his scent was giving his nocturnal visits away. Raccoons and fisher cats can be pretty vicious hen killers as well and will take an adult chicken no problem.

Had a red tailed Hawk try to pick one of the Hens off last year. The Hawk actually missed on first pass , came in too steep, forced a stall and backed up in mid flight, and tried a second pass (That was wild to see) a hawk flying literally backwards for a few feet to try another pass , but by that time the Hen made it to the cover of a Lilac Bush.

mannyrock · « **Reply #41 on:** July 24, 2009, 04:01:42 AM »

So, the message here is this: if you want to make sure that you can easily raise meat, cheese and milk in a bad situation, then you are better off buying and storing a good supply of chicken wire, hardware cloth, small animal fencing, galvanized staples, 8 and 12 penny galvanized nails, and treated lumber, than trying to build a steam engine that burns vegetable oil. :-)

And, since our bodies are 98% salt water, then the other top priorities should be plenty of salt, and clean water!

And, don't forget to buy a couple of good large swing sythes (like Death carries), so that you can cut hay and grain stalk by hand. (You had better be in good shape to do that!)

Best Regards,

Mannyrock

Dweezil · « **Reply #42 on:** July 24, 2009, 11:39:10 AM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on July 19, 2009, 03:49:51 AM

Quote
I'd rather have a standard solar power setup with a battery bank. No moving parts, no noise, very reliable, no fuel needed.

What are you going to do 8-10 years down the road when those solar panels crap out? You know, they don't last forever, they slowly degrade, untill they no longer work.

I think you better wean yourself off electricity...

DM

"8-10 years?" I just got Kyocera panels installed and they are warranteed to still produce 85% of the original output after 20 years. They will gradually degrade but would easily produce 50% of the original output after 50 years. I think that's probably enough time to wean myself off electricity...certainly more time than those counting on a diesel or gasoline generator. What wears out MUCH more quickly is the battery bank...especially in the heat. This has been a major problem with "off the grid" solar systems for quite some time. Obviously, not a problem with utility intertie systems but since we're talking about TSHTF situations, hardly relevant...although, I suppose you could just power your fridge during daylight hours then leave it closed at night so you didn't heat up too quickly.

WD45 · « **Reply #43 on:** July 25, 2009, 08:59:49 AM »

If you are thinking in terms of living off grid as a necessity in the future and using wood as a primary fuel source be aware it takes way more wood than than you think to feed a normal wood stove or fireplace. Not only do you need a couple of good axes but a new buck saw and 2 man saw along with the correct tools to sharpen and reset the teeth or you won't be getting to much wood cut. Forget the chain saw in a long term sirvival situation and don't go buy some 150 year old wip saw and think it will be good enough. Some may be OK but most of them you will break most of the teeth off of when you go to put the set back in them due to metal fatigue.
Can steam work.. sure it can BUT you will need to be a pipefitter and a blacksmith to keep it going for any period of time. steam engines are labor intensive and you can not just leave them alone like an internal combustion engine due to safety reasons. Don't forget one of the reasons steam was phased out was due to a safer alternative. A lot of people were killed or hurt due to boiler explosions and steam leaks. I would say the best steam alternative would be a small steam traction engine that could be used to pull farm equipment and run things from the belt pulley. Just keep in mind it still takes someone that knows how to run it and it must be maintained.
When it comes to work animals mules are easier keepers than horses in my opinion. My gand dad used to say a horse was a vet bill waiting to happen

. You also do not need massive work horses to do most farm work but I would plan on at least 3 if possible. Actually there are many places in the 3rd world that use large goats or donks to do cultivating and pull small carts and so forth... and you can always eat the goat if you have too.

There are times when all you need is one horse and times you may need to hitch all three and if one has a problem and cant be used you still have 2 to work. There is still a lot of good horse drawn equipment out there and some of it actually being produced new believe it or not. You also need to get familiar with what kind of horse power it takes to pull a certain peice of equipemt. For example , One horse can pull a 10 inch walking plow OK but not a 16 inch and you are still better putting a team on the 10 inch plow. When it comes to harness you get what you pay for. Good work harness is
not cheap and there is more than one kind. PLEASE do not go buy some old harness that has been hanging in some barn the last 50 years or more and think its ok. It may be cheap but you wont want to be anywhere near the wreck thats probably going to happen when it lets go from dry rot and age

... You would not believe where and how far a team of freaked out horses can drag you and whatever they are hooked to and it is NOT a fun ride. Don't ask me how I know this

I would encourage every one of you all to go learn how to harness a team and hitch it to a implement NOW not when sirvival demands it because you may not live through the experience!! If you think you will just throw a harness on any old horse includeing the most bomb proof riding horse you have ever seen and hitch it to something without any problems I hope you live next to a hospitle and have good life insurance.... and don't ask me how I know this either

I may have got a little long in the tooth here but I just don't want to see any of you all hurt bad. It's not like jumping on the ford tractor with a 3 point hitch that isnt alive with a mind of its own.

mannyrock · « **Reply #44 on:** July 25, 2009, 10:03:52 AM »

Excellent points WD. When I lived in West Tennessee, most of the country guys in their 70s who lived on small farms told me that they continued to plow using mules up through the early 1960s. A good man with a good mule could plow 1.5 acres a day. No diesel fuel needed. This is the type of technology that you would have to master to survive. If you had 5 gallons of spare diesel, you sure wouldn't want to waste it plowing up a field.

Regards,

Mannyrock

WD45 · « **Reply #45 on:** July 25, 2009, 01:45:50 PM »

The distinct possiblilty of an entire economic collapse kind of makes a fella think a little more beyond whats fer supper tonight doesn't it. I think it would be a good idea to start buying some open pollinated type veggie seeds. We will want to be able to have a sustainable garden too.

I was also thinking about cash. It may be a good idea to have some stashed in a place other than the bank. The ATM doesn't work without electricity. Well, thats if it has any value depending on the situation.. What good is ten grand if it won't buy a loaf of bread

Now I am thinkin of what are the best items to barter with ... now with all this thinking we been doing... my brain hurts

scootrd · « **Reply #46 on:** July 25, 2009, 02:52:05 PM »

Has anyone ever watched "Alone in the wilderness". ?
Dick Proenneke lived in the Alaskan wilderness and thrived not just survived with just hand tools and a good Rifle
for 30 years.
Yes he had a friend fly in once in a while and brings some supplies, But basically I think you would have been able to
make it even without the care package.
PBS runs the special a few times a year. "It's a great watch" if you haven't seen it.

mannyrock · « **Reply #47 on:** July 25, 2009, 04:02:33 PM »

Best items to barter with? Well that's really easy:

1. Coffee

2. Salt

3. Liquor

4. .22 LR rounds

5. Tobacco.

6. Aspirin

7. Whetstones

8. Lighters

These items would be in universal, non-stop demand.

Mannyrock

WD45 · « **Reply #48 on:** July 26, 2009, 01:11:35 AM »

I have never seen the film. The local library probably has a copy of it. I'll have to check and see.
Ya know, I never thought about lighters as a trade item. They are cheap and plentiful now but would be in high demand in the situation we are talking. Think of all the urbanites that would have no way to cook other than a charcoal grill with no electricity for months or longer and have no skill to make fire other than to flick a bic.

Ya know what I think one of the most important Items to stock up on is good boots and shoes. I would get a couple pair that could actually be repaired and the sole could be replaced. Boots that are used hard every day don't last all that long

Drilling Man · « **Reply #49 on:** July 26, 2009, 03:28:03 AM »

Quote from: scootrd on July 25, 2009, 02:52:05 PM

Has anyone ever watched "Alone in the wilderness". ?
Dick Proenneke lived in the Alaskan wilderness and thrived not just survived with just hand tools and a good Rifle
for 30 years.
Yes he had a friend fly in once in a while and brings some supplies, But basically I think you would have been able to
make it even without the care package.
PBS runs the special a few times a year. "It's a great watch" if you haven't seen it.

Actually, he got more care packages than you'd think. I didn't live too far from him, and some of my friends flew things into him.

DM

Drilling Man · « **Reply #50 on:** July 26, 2009, 03:33:47 AM »

Quote from: Dweezil on July 24, 2009, 11:39:10 AM

Quote from: Drilling Man on July 19, 2009, 03:49:51 AM
Quote
I'd rather have a standard solar power setup with a battery bank. No moving parts, no noise, very reliable, no fuel needed.

What are you going to do 8-10 years down the road when those solar panels crap out? You know, they don't last forever, they slowly degrade, untill they no longer work.

I think you better wean yourself off electricity...

DM

"8-10 years?" I just got Kyocera panels installed and they are warranteed to still produce 85% of the original output after 20 years. They will gradually degrade but would easily produce 50% of the original output after 50 years. I think that's probably enough time to wean myself off electricity...certainly more time than those counting on a diesel or gasoline generator. What wears out MUCH more quickly is the battery bank...especially in the heat. This has been a major problem with "off the grid" solar systems for quite some time. Obviously, not a problem with utility intertie systems but since we're talking about TSHTF situations, hardly relevant...although, I suppose you could just power your fridge during daylight hours then leave it closed at night so you didn't heat up too quickly.

It's true that the panels are getting better, it's also true that the more expensive models last longer, but in the end, most folks just end up buying the price leaders. And that means, 10 years is stretching it. Also, batts have to be bought new, and even the controlers go bad...

DM

WD45 · « **Reply #51 on:** July 26, 2009, 05:15:58 AM »

In the case of an EMP IF it will really do what is touted then will it fry solar panels ?
It would definatley take out the solid state inverter. Solar power systems that will really power much of anything appear to cost a good chunk of $$$$. Even with a warrantee that the panels will make 100 % power for 20 years what good is that if there is no company left to honor the warrantee. Also that company does not warrantee the inverter or the batteries that are pretty vital componenets to make your system work. What will you do if your inverter craps out in 6 months and have no way to replace it ? How many spare parts can you afford to back up your system ? All it would take is one good electrical storm to wreck a system..Your system would also have to be up and running well before crap hits the fan and you have to rely on it. You can't wait until the disaster to decide to go buy a solar system. So if you install a system tommorow and the disaster does not happen for 10 years your system is already 10 years old and prone to failure at any time. Not only that but think about the appliances you will be running and how long will they last.. How old is your fridge or freezer now ?
Would the money spent on a solar system be more wisely spent on mechanical powered belt a pulley systems that could utilize wind , water or animal power. these things have been used for centuries to power entire factories without electricity. In places where water and wind power were not feasable horse powers were used to power all kinds of machinery and most of those were portable.. I am not just trying to trash solar power here I am just thinking out loud so to speak about worse case senario.
Everything has a drawback of somekind

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #52 on:** July 26, 2009, 05:38:20 AM »

I have seen the old horse or mule turned sugar can presses. They could be geared up with a generator to produce electricity. When I was talking about refrigeration, I wasn't talking about powering a whole house, just a refrigerator or freezer. Do not get a frost free as they use far more electricity than a top open deep freezer or a small refrigerator. 5000 watts should be sufficient to power both. Also, power would probably only be necessary during the day and in summer. During winter and at night a generator could be shut down. Again if you are near water, have sufficient wind, a horse, mule, or ox, a pasture for the animals, that is great also. No matter what you do, you are going to attract a certain amount of attention, unless you are far into the wilderness. When I was refering to a steam generator, I wasn't talking about a locomotive, but small scale, 5-8 horsepower, enough for some electricity occationally. If you just charge up your refrigerator and freezer until they cycle off, then shut down for a while, shouldn't be needed but about 2-4 hours a day. Place it in a barn or an area that you could suppress the sound. If animal power, the animals would need 5-10 acres of pasture, and that could attract attention if someone shady passed through. Might be easier to store fuel and have a well insulated outbuilding for the generator. In winter, depending on what part of the country you are from, food could be stored or frozen outside and the refrigeration could be turned off and not used, nor the generator during this time. Heat would be needed for your home, whether firewood, solar (hot water and heat) or passive solar. Smoke from firewood or from a smokehouse for meats could also attact attention.

scootrd · « **Reply #53 on:** July 26, 2009, 08:24:18 AM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on July 26, 2009, 03:28:03 AM

Quote from: scootrd on July 25, 2009, 02:52:05 PM
Has anyone ever watched "Alone in the wilderness". ?
Dick Proenneke lived in the Alaskan wilderness and thrived not just survived with just hand tools and a good Rifle
for 30 years.
Yes he had a friend fly in once in a while and brings some supplies, But basically I think you would have been able to
make it even without the care package.
PBS runs the special a few times a year. "It's a great watch" if you haven't seen it.

Actually, he got more care packages than you'd think. I didn't live too far from him, and some of my friends flew things into him.

DM

No I was not aware of that.
Either way, It appears Dick brought a much more diverse set of skills, ingenuity, Adaptability to his surroundings, bit of marksmanship, hard work, and just good 'ol fashioned common sense know how, into the wilderness , then those other two bOzo's, McCandless and the other nut (forget his name) who got himself and his Girlfriend eaten by bears.

Maybe Dick was not 100% self reliant, but if necessary, My gut feel is he probably have been able to make the leap to total self reliance should the need had ever presented itself.

Put it this way, if the SHTF I would rather be aligned with a Dick Proenneke's of the world than the other two mentioned.
From an outsider lookin in - all in all seems a nice quiet and simplistic way to live for 30 years if your not
afraid to put the effort in.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #54 on:** July 26, 2009, 10:11:08 AM »

Quote

Put it this way, if the SHTF I would rather be aligned with a Dick Proenneke's of the world than the other two mentioned.
From an outsider lookin in - all in all seems a nice quiet and simplistic way to live for 30 years if your not
afraid to put the effort in.

Me too, but it's a tough as he!! way to live! It only got into the 40's inside his cabin in the winter, and there's NO oak or hickory to burn, so setting in a good fire for the night was out of the question!

You couldn't have a decent garden over there either! So, forget putting up a bunch of veggies for long term! Sooo, your back to meat, and what ever you could scrounge or get someone to bring you...

If you didn't have a gimmick to make money like Dick did, you couldn't buy those beans, rice, flower ect., that you needed to survive either!

DM

The Hermit · « **Reply #55 on:** July 26, 2009, 03:20:14 PM »

A couple of distant neighbors and I split up a hog every year and I can most of my share of the meat. Also, I grind by hand and make about 30#'s sausage into patties, which is a chore for sure. Then I fry it all up, let it cool, then pack it into an old crock. I alternate putting in the grease around the patties till everything is covered up. The crock goes in a cool area under the cabin, about 50 degrees year round. When I want sausage I just dig out a couple, recover the rest. I scrape most of the grease off and reheat in a frying pan on my wood cook stove. Been doing it for over 40 years. Best sausage you ever ate. Be sure that the crock you use is glazed on the inside. I also cover it with a wooden lid.
Over the years, I've tried battery power, wind power, gas refrigerators, etc. etc. Most of which is expensive, time intensive and more bother than its worth. Not to offend anyone, but I've found that I am a lot happier by keeping it simple. I'm independant and comfortable that way.

The Hermit

don heath · « **Reply #56 on:** July 26, 2009, 09:55:25 PM »

Going by the Zimbabwe/Zambia/Mozambique experience, when things started to go wrong, fuel was one of the first things to really run out. Very few people had seen the crunch comming and stocked up. There was great jealousy against those of us who a) had a small motorbike and could move economically and b) had any fuel reserves for emergency use at all!

Second thing was prescription drugs. If you have High BP and cannot get your tabs...your BP just goes up! Lost a couple of folk I knew to exactly this.

3rd critical loss was clean water- cholera followed of course - and thousands who couldn't understand basic hygene died- mainly kids.

I have a shallow well (ie a hole over 1 yard diamiter and not going through sealed rock strata.). The water is not potable- contaminated with human fecal matter according to the report. A proper bore hole going down below the rock strata is much safer and does not require filtering and boiling like water from a shallow well. But not all areas have deep water...

Dixie Dude · « **Reply #57 on:** July 27, 2009, 04:45:14 AM »

In most survival information I have read, the 4 basics are 1)water, 2)food, 3)shelter, and 4)fire. In todays world, you could probably add medicines and some antibiotics for emergencies.

1) Water - either deep well, or a filtration system. A homemade filtration system can be made using hardwood charcoal, sand and rags for chemicals and minerals, and boil for germs.
2) food - hunting, fishing, and a knowledge of local eatible plants, then later add gardening, then farming.
3) shelter - from a simple leanto to a full home, but this also includes clothing and shoes or boots.
4) fire - not only for cooking, but heating, driving off potential predators, purifying water, to heating a home and hot water to solar, wind, etc.
5) medicines and first aid. Learn medicinal plants for natural healing, to learning how to set a bone, to needing bp meds etc.

So, start from the primitive basics and work up to what you can do and afford to full blown self-sufficient farming.

WD45 · « **Reply #58 on:** July 27, 2009, 02:41:20 PM »

Work your way into full blown self sufficient farming... and you are worried about someone seeing a couple horses and needing 10 acres of pasture... At one time a self sufficient farm was at least 40 acres and a mule And that was 40 acres of usable ground farmed on thirds. One third pasture and hay for animals, one third crops and the rest in forrest. I have farmed all my life and if you think you are going to feed a family of 3 or 4 and keep them warm on a couple acres you are fooling yourself. How many gallons of fuel can you stockpile ? gasoline will go bad in about a year. So how long is a couple hundred gallons of fuel really going to last ? If You think the noise from generators, steam engines and working a full blown self sufficient farm will not attract any or little attention you are fooling yourself. If crap hits the fan and you cant buy anything period then I think you had better be able to self sufficient right then or you wont live very long.

Buck-Ridge · « **Reply #59 on:** July 28, 2009, 02:33:32 PM »

This hasn't been mentioned for a while in this topic but here in Arkansas they still sell cured hams and bacon and even summer sausages that are dry cured and don't need refrigeration. They are sold hanging from strings and are delicious. They could be done at home with prague powder for a preservative and the correct seasonings.