Author Topic: Patch and Lube Problems (Read 2174 times)

HWooldridge · « **on:** September 25, 2003, 03:43:19 AM »

I recently built a Track of the Wolf Southern Rifle kit with a 42 inch, .45 cal, Green Mountain barrel, twist is 1-60. My first time out, I used a .440 ball and store bought Wonder Patches. The balls were really easy to seat and at 25 yds over 80 grs of FFFg, I put seven shots in one ragged hole that was caliber size wide and about 2 inches vertical. I was delighted but wanted better so I ordered Dutch Schoulz's instructions on BP shooting. Without giving away his info, Schoulz's instructions basically say to use a tight patch/ball combo with water soluble oil added in some dispersion.

I went to the fabric store and bought some denim in a slightly thicker weave (the Wonder patches miked .010 and the new denim was .015). I got some WS oil from our machine shop at work and made up 5/1, 6/1, 7/1 and 8/1 patches (water/oil). Next day, I moved out to 50 yds. I shot five shots with each combination over the same charge. Groups for the "oilier" patches were about 6 inches and the drier patches opened up to about 12". The patch remnants I was able to find were blasted apart. I then tried a very wet denim patch with my homemade "Moose Milk". Groups tightened back down to about 2 inches with the same vertical string.

What I am deducing from all this is that my rifle likes a slick patch but I don't want to hunt all day with a wet patch so am trying to come up with some combo that won't contaminate the powder charge. I am going to try a patch soaked in straight WS oil but would like some opinions from the group. Thanks, Hollis

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #1 on:** September 25, 2003, 05:53:40 AM »

Crisco or some other kind of grease might work as a hunting lube.

Interesting that you didn't have much luck with Dutch's system. I usually read raves.

Are you swabbing 'tween each shot?

I've noticed for most of the guns I shoot: if you're using a grease lube, the gun requires more frequent swabbing than if you're using a wet(watery) lube. Makes perfect sense since the moisture in the patch helps dissolve the fouling same as if the moisture was on a cleaning patch.

Excessive hard fouling can eat patches.

Also - try dropping down a few increments with the same Dutch's lubes. 80 grn of FFFg is stout in a .45 cal.

It's possible you could get better accuracy and same velocity at 60 or 70 grains using Dutch's lube.

The really slick patch allows the ball to "get moving" easier. This reduces the pressure some which may be why a slick patch tolerates the 80 grain load. With the pressure reduction can come a velocity reduction.

A drier patch will "stay put" longer allowing the burning charge to build more pressure. More pressure = more velocity and possibly things like gas blow-by. IOW excessive pressure eats patches.

If you get a chance to shoot over a chrony - experiment with lubes. It's an eye opener what a little more or a little less lube will do to velocity (I've seen >100 fps)

WD45 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 25, 2003, 07:09:15 AM »

Black Jaque is right. You definately should start decreasing your powder charge with the different lubes along with a grease type lube and check your accuracy. If you are set on the wet lubes you can try an overpowder card and see how she shoots. You also didnt say wether the blown apart patches were cut from rifleing or if they looked burned up which can help determine more of whats going on with your different loads.
You may also want to try a tompson style maxi ball for hunting. I have a old CVA 45 cal mountain rifle with a 1 in 66 twist that they are very accurate in and will kill deer way beyond what I can see anymore. That maxi ball runs about 240 grains and stabilizes out of my gun but with the 1 in 66 twist is pushing the limit and may not in yours.
Don't get discouraged. It takes alot of experimentation and there are alot of variables to contend with. The more you shoot the more you learn about what works and what dont and besides..... ITS FUN :grin:

HWooldridge · « **Reply #3 on:** September 25, 2003, 07:38:44 AM »

I was swabbing between each shot - one wet with Moose Milk followed by one dry, but I did note later that evening when I was cleaning that it took a very long time and many patches to eliminate all the fouling. The fired patches were shredded and black so I don't know if the fouling damaged them or it was just too much powder. I'm sticking to patched balls purely because I'm mule-headed and stubborn - no interest in bullets or other projectiles for this rifle. BTW, the powder was new Goex FFFg and caps are new Remington 11's. I really enjoy the rifle and even 80gr of powder offers no appreciable recoil. Track sells a good kit and I intend to build another as soon as this rilfe is shooting to my satisfaction.

I'll drop the charge down to 70gr and try again tonight. The interesting thing is that the precut and lubed Wonder patches shot pretty well even though they just slipped down the barrel. I am also going to buy some .445 balls and experiment with those. Keep the ideas coming and I'll let you know how it goes...H

The Cast Bullet Kid · « **Reply #4 on:** September 25, 2003, 02:01:42 PM »

I agree with the others. 80gr is a BIG load for that poor wee patch.
I swear by homemade moose milk used wet on the patches and I dry the bore AFTER loading to remove excess lube. An over wet bore produces large groups, dry bore cloverleaves. Using this loading method I can shoot all day without traditional cleaning between shots. Of course the round bottom rifleing of my Colerain barrels helps too.
Dutches system did not work for me but his advice on patch compression is priceless.
You need to get a good TIGHT fit of ball and patch to prevent blow by at time of ignition or the patch will burn out.
The point to consider is the new barrel might need a wee lap to remove the sharp edges.

pendennis · « **Reply #5 on:** September 25, 2003, 02:14:46 PM »

Just one other piece of advice you may want to consider. There are folks out there who use hornets' nesting as a filler between the powder and patch. It acts to reduce the chance of destroying the patch, and ruining accuracy.

I agree with the others that a too-wet patch is really a detriment to accuracy.

The .015" thickness patch is about what is recommended for a .440 ball in the GM barrels. The total bore for these is about .470, so the .015" patch compresses enough to fully fill the bore.

johnt · « **Reply #6 on:** September 25, 2003, 08:34:11 PM »

I tried that same thing when I first tried dutch.
"i got some water soluble oil from my shop at work"!!
Guess what? it wasn't all ws oil,,it was contaminated with non ws oil. :cry:
Then ,,once I started tryin it proper,($8 per pint) An figgered it out. I found my freinds, what I showed how great it works "squezzed" so hard on the cloth they forgot to leave the water an mix to evaperate to let the oil stay in the cloth so's the 1-5 thru 1-10 was all the same cause it was dry before it dryed! Get it?
Now,, If'n ya paid fer it,you jus e-mail the master hisownself.! He'll talk to ya jus like I am,an ya best know that ya read the whole thing 5 times and got it right afore ya ask. It's so easy people forgit ta think!
If he comes back with,,":I'm not sure Napa is the same anymore" Try the other stuff!! Tell'm "tack's said NAPA's fine!!",, Be prepared to find your next fault!! It's finding "your" variables,and your approch that Dutch teaches

HWooldridge · « **Reply #7 on:** September 26, 2003, 03:30:17 AM »

Here are the results from last night: Two days ago, I dipped some patch material in straight WS oil and let it dry so I used that yesterday (BTW, my WS oil came straight from an unopened bucket so it should not be contaminated). I also dropped the charge to 70 gr but left everything else the same. I shot and wiped between each shot - wet patch then dry patch. 12 shots now fell into a 3 inch group with an interesting pattern. There was a 4 shot cloverleaf at 7 o'clock, a 3 shot clover at 5 and a 3 shot hole at 12. The other two shots went into the middle of the circle. I then changed targets and fired 3 shots with some thicker patch material and my homemade lube (1 part beeswax, 1 part Murphy's soap and 2 parts Crisco). I did not wipe between shots to simulate a hunting situation. Those three shots went into 1-1/2 inches.

Side notes: I did not weigh or mike any of these balls (Hornady.440) so that is a variable. In addition, the patches were no longer shredded but all came out in one piece. An interesting observation was that the "dry" patches with the WS oil all fell about 15 feet in front of the muzzle within a 4-5 foot circle. The greased patches started another 20 feet farther and were strung over a good 20-30 foot line. It appears they stuck to the ball while the dry patches slipped off very consistently.

I dipped some more patch material in straight WS and plan to dip it again tonight for a double dose. Since this is a brand new Green Mtn barrel, I'm sure the sharp lands are contributing.

Thanks for the ideas and I'll post again after the next test.

WD45 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 26, 2003, 07:15:41 AM »

You said you had a 1.5 inch group with the greased patch but you didnt vary the powder charge after you got that group or I didnt read where you did. Try a group at 75 grains
and a group at 65 grains with that greased patch and see if you group opens or closes

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #9 on:** September 26, 2003, 12:50:50 PM »

Quote

I did not wipe between shots to simulate a hunting situation. Those three shots went into 1-1/2 inches. - HWoolridge

Is that 1 1/2 inches at 50 yards? If so that would certainly be tolerable hunting accuracy. Jot that load down for future reference it's certainly worth returning to. It may even improve as the bbl breaks in.

If that 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards hang up everything else - you found your load!

As for your 12-shot group - is that 12 shots with no variables changed or were you using different mixes of lube?

Does your barrel get hot? If it's pinned in a funny way at the barrel expands with heat the pinns will pull against it since they're stuck in the stock which isn't heating up.

The cloverleafs and single hole seem to indicate that you've found something. Sort the balls by weight.

You didn't say if dropping down to 70 grains preserved your patches - I'm guessing it did?

Grump · « **Reply #10 on:** September 26, 2003, 01:42:53 PM »

Hi guys! I would try the Dutch WS oil method again but this time using the .445 balls. Im thinking maybe your patch burning problem might be from the .440 ball.To loose of a fit? Use a short starter with the 1/2" starter nub to set the ball just below the muzzleand cut with SHARP patch knife,then push down with the 5" short starter then seat ball with rammrod. Everything is going to go down tight but dont worry.But then again too,If your shooting clover leafs now your methods are working very well.Hey johnt,Drop me a line and lets burn up some powder and put the hurt on the local tree rat population.
Grump

tommy4toes · « **Reply #11 on:** September 26, 2003, 04:16:11 PM »

I will agree with everything stated so far - I've been shooting a Chambers longrifle in .50 lately.
As the board has said, drop your powder charge. Old-timers recommend starting with a calibers worth of powder and working up in 5 gr increments. For example, my rifle loves 60grs of 2F at 50 yds and 60grs of 3F at 100. I'm still working on the loads though.
One thing I came up with for a hunting patch is taking pillow ticking material(in 1" strips) andsoaking in heated SPG lube. Havent actually tried it yet, but it definitely will not migrate into the powder charge, and should provide good lubrication. In fact, I'll be trying it with .010"under and .005" under bore size balls in the morning. BTW thkx johnt for all the good advice.

t4t

HWooldridge · « **Reply #12 on:** September 26, 2003, 05:59:22 PM »

To answer a couple of questions.
1. Yes, the 70 gr load did not burn or shred the patches. I want to shoot the maximum accurate load for hunting so I'm going to play around this charge up or down a few grains and try to get max accuracy and velocity.
2. I don't know if this is a common trick but I use an old straight razor as a patch knife and find it has no equal for that purpose. The disposable box knives on the market with the breakaway blades are also good but don't have the right look for traditional use. I had some precuts but have now quit using them.
3. My shooting so far has been at 50 yds other than the initial sighting at 25.
4. My barrel gets fairly warm with each shot. It is not uncomfortable to hold but I think it is quite warm for a single round.
5. The 12 shots were all done with patches soaked one time in straight WS oil. The other thought is that I'm quite sure there are different brands and formulas of WS oil on the market so that's another possible variable.

I will sort the balls by weight and try with the double dipped patch material.

johnt · « **Reply #13 on:** September 26, 2003, 07:32:08 PM »

HWooldridge,,, double dipping patch in straight oil has nothing to do with "Dutch"!! If ya cain't "read" don't dog the "system"! a little tweeking is good,just for the individual, but,,,WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???!! Get your money back,, because it's been wasted on you.

See guy's, here's another one that need's ta complicate the entire matter of accuracy with maximum everything! Go for maximum velocity and "end ballistics results"according to the book's and forget hitting the deer at 75yrs in the heart.
It's fall again,so we'er gonna get alot of this crap. And I'll not even comment on another topic like this again. it's like "duh!?"
Just shoot yer darn gun sum till ya find out how it shoot's and what work's fer you.
Hollywood!?? I'm sorry :oops: , but if ya cain't pay no nevermind ta fellers what been shootin a bunch,then buy a rany wakefield tape for the vcr fer 19.95 an be a "hunter"an "sportsman" like'n us all.

Double dippin straight oil!?? What for?? What even lead you to think too double dip straight oil!?? where you been??!!

I'm sorry,I guess it takes all kinds ta make the world go round.

johnt · « **Reply #14 on:** September 26, 2003, 07:46:41 PM »

Ahh! the Grump'!!

Good ta see ya back again

(sorry,I had ta git that last one off my chest)
How's the girls? gotta have 4 teeth each buy now! An ruggin good,I'll bet :lol:

One more vous' ta do, first weekend of Oct. then MEA mid Oct.with Dust. It'll be good ta see ya again!!

tommy4toes · « **Reply #15 on:** September 27, 2003, 04:06:01 AM »

hwooldridge -
yes, the straight razor is a good choice for a patch knife. Watch your fingertips though, they come off real easy with one of those.
You may wish to go back and read some of the "Swiss in a longrifle" posts. I got alot of great advice, and I'm real close to getting an accurate, FAST hunting load.
Also the back of the DGW catalog has a lot of good info; check it out. One thing I can tell you is that light barrels do not like heavy loads. If you want to shoot 80+ grs of powder with a round ball, get a Lyman GPR. I'll sell ya mine !!!!

t4t

tommy4toes · « **Reply #16 on:** September 27, 2003, 12:34:19 PM »

well so much for the SPG patches..........accuracy was non-existant and I even managed to drive one ball through the patch while trying to start it. I think I'll try just wiping the patches with a smear of SPG and try it again.

Hwooldridge - I get my best accuracy with 60 grs 3F and a .495 ball, spit-lubed pillow ticking patch. 2" groups at 100yds to date, still trying for a better load. Listen to johnt.
t4t

HWooldridge · « **Reply #17 on:** September 27, 2003, 02:46:52 PM »

ENORMOUS SUCCESS! A slightly thicker patch material dipped twice in straight WS oil and allowed to dry over 70 gr FFFg with a .440 ball produced eight shots in one ragged 1-1/4" group (center to center) at 50 yds. Five of the eight landed in one hole that was a little over 5/8" on centers. This was with unweighed Hornady balls. I plan to try this again with sorted balls. The other thing was that although I wiped between shots, there was little fouling and fast cleanup, which tells me the charge was burning efficiently. A big thanks to everyone who made suggestions and score another one for Dutch! ..Hollis..

PS - To JohnT, I am having a bit of trouble understanding your grasp on the English language. Perhaps you should read Dutch again.

dr5x · « **Reply #18 on:** September 29, 2003, 11:05:50 AM »

Through a variety of emails Hollis and I have determined that he is NOT using water soluble oil but some later invented product which will not work well with my Dry Patch System

John T - Napa has changed their formula and I am now suggesting that Ballistol be used instead.

One subscriber of mine recently got some green goo and it corroded his barrel to unusablity in two days. But it WAS free.

I never knew there was a Greybeard Outdoors site.

Dutch Schoultz

dr5x · « **Reply #19 on:** September 29, 2003, 11:08:42 AM »

Through a variety of emails Hollis and I have determined that he is NOT using water soluble oil but some later invented product which will not work well with my Dry Patch System

John T - Napa has changed their formula and I am now suggesting that Ballistol be used instead.

One subscriber of mine recently got some green goo and it corroded his barrel to unusablity in two days. But it WAS free.

I never knew there was a Greybeard Outdoors site.

Dutch Schoultz

johnt · « **Reply #20 on:** September 29, 2003, 01:06:09 PM »

,Dutch!!

I'm really happy ta see ya found this site, and that Hollis is askin you

personally,,,, the first thing I asked him to do was check with you!

The NAPA is still working here in Minnesota,,,

There are several member's of this site that use the "system" well..

The biggest mistake I see people make is " wringing " the patch too dry before laying it flat to dry!! all the lube get's squeezed out afore it's even ready ta shoot.

The "system" work's folk's!!,, and so does Dutch,, I'd bet he come here fer Hollis,just cause Hollis asked! :-)

Dutch,,? I'm the feller what knew where the "lake" property was,,,,,

an Thank You,,,,,,, you helped me become a better shooter

dr5x · « **Reply #21 on:** September 29, 2003, 03:40:09 PM »

On this list.Mostly I get blank pages and this is the second try to answer John T

What Lake Country?

I am hesitant to get on these forums because people will think I using it as a sales tool.

I just zip the strips through thumb and forefinger and thenlay them out to dry on a non absorbing surface. Kitchen counter if you're not married, otherwise the WS Oil or Ballistol runs to the low end.

I have many tips on my web site should anyone care to visit. Ignore the salespitch just read the tips.

Dutch Schoultz

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #22 on:** September 30, 2003, 05:45:17 AM »

Whoa JohnT! I didn't quite see anything in Hollis' posts that should raise anyone's ire. Granted I haven't read anything of Dutch Schultz's so I'm not "in the know".

What's so evil 'bout double dipping?

And there aint nothing wrong will looking for a "hunting" load.

There is such a thing as accurate "enough" and powerful "enough". For hunting purposes, what do you gain by using a load that prints 3/4" groups on paper instead of a load that prints 1 1/4" groups?

If the less accurate of the two load has several hundred feet per second more velocity I would opt for that load as a hunting load.

Just as all the power in the world won't do any good if you can't hit the target - all the accuracy in the world won't do any good if the bullet can't penetrate a little muscle and bone to get to the vitals.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #23 on:** September 30, 2003, 07:07:13 AM »

Dutch and I have been trading emails off forum. Put very simply, I found a combination of powder, ball, lube and patch that performed well in a single shooting session in my rifle based on reading Dutch's instructions - except - I AM NOT USING BALLISTOL. I am using a water soluble, metal working fluid concentrate from Cincinnati Milacron called Cimstar 540. I hope this clarification clears up any confusion. If anyone wants to make the trip to Central Texas, you can see in person what happens the next time I try this recipe.

There is a concern that some people have ruined rifles by using various oils or fluids. My limited research indicates that a wide variety of products are on the market and most have specific purposes so be careful when experimenting since some may well wreak havoc with barrels.

As stated by some folks here, playing with the variables is what makes the sport fun. My goal is excellence and in a perfect world, that would be 2000 fps at the muzzle and a ten shot, one hole group at 200 yds. I probably will never get there but it will be fun trying. My philosophy is to approach any problem with an open mind and no preconceived notions about what will work but it always helps to have a set of guidelines from people who have done it.

Hollis

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #24 on:** September 30, 2003, 08:48:58 AM »

Hollis,

Yep 2000fps; 1-hole ten-shot group @ 200yds; But I would add "never have to swab 'tween shots, and can thumb-start the patched balls" Then you'd have the perfect load. :grin:

HWooldridge · « **Reply #25 on:** September 30, 2003, 09:09:51 AM »

Black Jacque,

You forgot - no cleanup afterwards and the smoke would smell like roses.

Keep dat tongue firmly planted in dat cheek...H

River runner · « **Reply #26 on:** September 30, 2003, 01:43:22 PM »

I've been using the Dutch Schultz method also and have had excellent luck with it. The WS Oil I've been using is "Sta lube" contents in order; mineral oil,monoethanolamine, isoctyl alcohol, triazine, fatty acid, and amine salt. The latter I'm somewhat concerned about. So far no rust or obvious deterioration.

Hopefully this is some good stuff as it does work. Out here where it is pretty dry, I have used 4-1, and have had very consistent results in my traditional muzzle loaders, the two inlines I have I've used hand cast bullets with SPG, Lyman's BP lube, and my own concoction of Crisco, lanolin, and bees wax, and haven't noticed much difference in accuracy or the clean-up.

Johnt, hope your feeling better buddy, I know what you were trying to say, just came out a little rough around the edges. I use a chronograph, on all my hunting loads prior to using them, to determine a sufficient velocity, and accuracy for the distance I'll be shooting. I want a load I'm comfortable with, but has the necessary power to anchor my game. A combination of accuracy and power. RR

WD45 · « **Reply #27 on:** October 01, 2003, 08:05:09 AM »

you also forgot that it should stabilze a 900 grain whatever without key holeing and going into one raggged hole at that 200 yards

Black Jaque Janaviac · « **Reply #28 on:** October 01, 2003, 10:45:50 AM »

Quote

should stabilze a 900 grain whatever without key holeing and going into one raggged hole at that 200 yards

I've never had a roundball keyhole. And if you want a 900 grainer then your looking at an 8 bore.

And now that you brought it up to this level - it has to do all of the above without recoiling.

While we're on the topic, anybody shoot big bore rifles? Like .60 caliber and up?

Since there's some folks who think that conicals have it all over roundballs, I'm just wondering what the affects are when the playing field is leveled.

I read about 300 grain this and 400 grain that - well I wonder ifn you'd see some even more impressive results using a .69 or .72 caliber ball.

HWooldridge · « **Reply #29 on:** October 01, 2003, 11:32:46 AM »

I read a magazine article about a fellow that hunts moose with a .72 smoothbore flint fusil and about 90gr of FFg. He gets within 30 yds and is selective about his shots, but often hunts in really bad weather and has to shoot quickly. He said the big ball whops the moose right on his keester with no further argument.