Unusual question

[S.S.]

I have reloaded my own .44 mag. ammo now for about the last 20 years,  a buddy of mine asked me a question that I was kind of out of touch on factory ammo to answer. He has a S&W model 29 and he was wondering if all factory loaded ammo was safe for it? I honestly did not have that answer. Is there
any factory ammo that any of you know of that would be too hot for his M29 .44 Mag? 

[blhof]

Not any factory ammo, unless it's speciality ammo and that's special order.  All factory ammo complies to standard SAAMI safety specs for standard pistols of the caliber intended for.  The problem arises with handloads that are loaded to the upper limit of the range allowed for safe loads and used for extended periods of time.  These loads will even shake loose a Ruger, but only after a much greater time.

[S.S.]

Someone had told him that a particular load was for rifles or the contender only,
I had no Idea what he was referring to but I was not sure enough to tell him for sure.
I think it was from Black Hills.

[Catfish]

If it is Black Hills I would not shoot it in a Smith. Black Hills are basicly a custom loader and they provide some very good ammo for the guy that wnat to get every oz. of energy for their guns, and have guns that will stand far more than SAMMI specs.

[Old Griz]

That's a much bigger issue with .45s than .44s. You cannot use any of the +P .45 Colt loads in a S&W. I'd tell him not to risk heavy loads in the Smith. Why ruin a fine handgun with a bigger load than you need to use anyway?

[Mohawk]

  You, or your friend, may want to, if ya'll haven't already, evaluate the need for a heavy charged load. No experience with .44's but I was not impressed by the difference on game between a .38 110gr standard pressure SJHP and a .357 Mag 158gr SJHP on deer to be specific. They all just run 40yds and died which is fine. This year the Buffalo Bore 158gr SWCHP is batter up for deer loads in .38 Special. If he needs a hot-rodded .44, as was stated, I would not employ the S&W, they were not designed for them. Old Griz had a good point. Don't ruin a great revolver when it is not needed as most of the time it isn't.

[DanChamberlain]

Currently factory loaded .44 Magnum ammo is a bit lighter than originally factory loaded .44 Magnum ammo.  I recall shooting some fairly early .44 Magnum Remingtons with a 240 grain jackted lead nose that fairly rocked my S&W and was decidedly uncomfortable in my Ruger Flattop.  Either they've backed off a bit, or changes in powder formulation has altered the pressures a bit.

Dan

[Darrell Davis]

Morn'in,

I know this will rattle some S&W owners/lovers, but the info is from S&W's own ads published in shooting mags.

This was published at the time the M29 Classic was being brought to the market.

Their own ads, ones for which they paid big bucks, said, the "model 29 Classic" was built to last/stand-up with with "sustained" firing of mag. .44 ammo.

Now, not being a S&W fan, and having VERY limited experience the m29, it seems to me like this is saying that there might have been some issues (?) with the pre Classic 29.

I know, I know,  all the S&W fans, especially those fan/owners of the older 29s have now put me on their "most wanted list," but why in the world would a company pay for for such an ad out of their own hard earned money, if there wasn't at least some factor of truth to it?

All I know is, I read this statement in S&Ws own ads.

So, and here comes the clincher for the S&W fans/owners, I continue to shoot my 5.5" Redhawk with the 310gr. LBTs and it takes a lick'in and keeps on tick'in.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[Mohawk]

Currently factory loaded .44 Magnum ammo is a bit lighter than originally factory loaded .44 Magnum ammo.  I recall shooting some fairly early .44 Magnum Remingtons with a 240 grain jackted lead nose that fairly rocked my S&W and was decidedly uncomfortable in my Ruger Flattop.  Either they've backed off a bit, or changes in powder formulation has altered the pressures a bit.

Dan

  I think you are right. I think all major manufacturers appeared to "slow them down". A standard pressure .38 used to be 950fps, now 755. A .357 158gr at 1550fps, now is 1235. I use to have a bunch of the 1550fps .357's and fired them in a K-frame Smith. Definately unpleasant from the shooter's end compared to the current factory .357's at 1235.

[Old Griz]

I think the major manufacturers are just cutting back on powder to make it cheaper for them - less fun for us.

[Graybeard]

COR-BON and especially Buffalo Bore load some really hot ammo for hunting and self defense use. To my knowledge Black Hills does NOT they tend to load ONLY to SAAMI specs where as BB and to a lesser extent COR-BON will load above SAAMI.

Still I'm not aware of any load by any of the three that would be unsafe pressure wise in a S&W N frame gun. Some are perhaps too long to fit and some might in time shake one loose but for the most part if it comes from any of the big name outfits like them it should be safe if the overall length is acceptable.

SAAMI specs for the .44 Magnum have been drastically lowered since the early days of the round as they have for the .357 magnum. What used to pass as mid range loads in .44 magnum are now the top of line loads. When I began using the .357 magnum factory loads pushed 158s to 1550 fps which now days even 125s don't reach. The .44 Magnum has lost about 200-250 fps since those original rounds came out.

[Lone Star]

Somewhere in the early 1990s S&W did change the M29, using slightly different metallurgy and design.  This was widely reported in the shooting press at the time.  Earlier M29s would shoot loose with extensive firing of even SAAMI loads; lots of silhouetters found this out the hard way.  Current N-frames are much tougher than they were years ago.

The original reason for reducing .44 Magnum ammo power was probably to reduce the extensive leading caused by the soft, swaged bullets first offered.  When the switch was finally made to jacketed bullets the actual velocities were already lower.  Notice was also made of shooters who could not stand the heavy recoil and would sell their new M29s with a box of 44 unfired shells.




.

[Graybeard]

In the early days of the .44 magnum many guns were available for sale used with the orginal box of ammo bought with it with five or six rounds mising. That was all the new buyer could take from it and they immediately sold it. I bought a couple like that myself. The 4" M29s with the loads of the day and those magna grips were tough to shoot for sure. The sharp checkering on the grips and heavy recoil would bring blood not infrequently. It was a horrible combination.

The advent of better grips especially those of rubber compounds have allowed folks to take a lot more recoil now than back then. Still not everyone can take the recoil even today tho some seem to think it makes them more of a man to shoot the heavy recoil guns even when they aren't that much more effective killers than a properly loaded .44 mag.

[Davemuzz]

Compared to most guys on this forum, I'm new to reloading and my experience in shooting my handguns for the past 5 years is considered "limited." But, I'll tell you what I know about the 44 mag since that's my favorite round to load 'n shoot.

I own 2 Smith's. A 629DX Classic and a M29 PC. The DX has Hogue grips and the DX has factory wooden grips. For me, the factory wooden grips are far superior to absorbing recoil and making the handgun shoot comfortably than the Hogue's.

I load up for target and for hunting whitetails, a 200 grain Hornady XTP over 24.4gr. of VV N-110. I believe in the Hornady reloading manual, this is near the maximum, but in the VV manual, this is the beginning load. The VV manual shows the velocity of 1,621fps. My chrony show it to be closer to 1,500fps. The maximum load in the VV manual is 26.3gr of N-110. I've never loaded this as the 24.4gr. seems plenty enough. I say that as any whitetail I've shot has died within 20 yards....and I can put 6 shots in the 8" target at 100 yards. Actually, its a tighter pattern than that....but I can't recall right now what it is.

This 24.4gr. load is not excessive. Also, compared to the Hornady FTX 225gr. factory loads, I don't have to change my POA to get the same POI from my M-29. And the Hornady factory FTX's are hardly a handful to shoot.

I could load up the 240gr. Hornady's and get a lower velocity, but probably a little more down range energy, but I'm not hunting bear.....and I don't ever plan to.

Now, I realize these are "newer" Smith models but so far, I don't see any parts flying off of 'em and nothing seems to be shakin loose.

I shoot Smiths because the fit my hands. I don't have that luck with Rugers. Rugers make fine products but their 44 mags make my index finger on my right hand bleed every time I shoot one. I figure it's just how I'm built.

So....I'll keep shootin my Smith's. If they shake off parts, I'll send 'em back and ask for more parts.

Dave

[Mohawk]

+1 on the Buffalo Bore. Tried some of their "standard pressure" .38's and they run faster than major brand +P's due to the kind of powder as I understand? Non-cannister? I don't reload but that is what I read. But, they are very accurate with a nice Keith-SCWHP.

[Old Griz]

I shoot Smiths because the fit my hands. I don't have that luck with Rugers. Rugers make fine products but their 44 mags make my index finger on my right hand bleed every time I shoot one. I figure it's just how I'm built.

What ever you do, do not shoot Ruger single action 44 mags.

If you do, you'll never stop! Wahoo! Now dems fun guns! Specially de Bisleys!

[S.B.]

Not any factory ammo, unless it's speciality ammo and that's special order. These loads will even shake loose a Ruger, but only after a much greater time.

How would one go about ordering these loads from a factory? Honestly didn't know you could.


Steve

[S.B.]

In the early days of the .44 magnum many guns were available for sale used with the orginal box of ammo bought with it with five or six rounds mising. That was all the new buyer could take from it and they immediately sold it. I bought a couple like that myself. The 4" M29s with the loads of the day and those magna grips were tough to shoot for sure. The sharp checkering on the grips and heavy recoil would bring blood not infrequently. It was a horrible combination.

The advent of better grips especially those of rubber compounds have allowed folks to take a lot more recoil now than back then. Still not everyone can take the recoil even today tho some seem to think it makes them more of a man to shoot the heavy recoil guns even when they aren't that much more effective killers than a properly loaded .44 mag.

Graybeard, I've never heard or seen a M29 come with magnas from their factory? They always came with the factory targets, were you special ordering them, like this?
Elmer Keith was the only person I ever heard of who prefered the magnas?  I think he made his famous 600 yard shot, with these?
Steve

[Travis Morgan]

Not any factory ammo, unless it's speciality ammo and that's special order. These loads will even shake loose a Ruger, but only after a much greater time.

How would one go about ordering these loads from a factory? Honestly didn't know you could.


Steve

Go to Cor-bon, Buffalo bore, or Grizzly cartridge company's website; they specialise in some ammo that is only safe in certain guns. They generally know what guns are safe with which loads, but it's up to you to decide if it's worth it. They do their own pressure tests, so they can look at what kinda pressure your gun's rated to and match it up.

[S.B.]

Are the ones you list "Specialty Loaders"?
Steve

[Travis Morgan]

Yup. If you tell 'em what you're gonna hunt and with what, they can generally provide you with the ammo and tell you how it's done for other shooters.

[Old Griz]

Be advised. This is the fun stuff that will bounce your gun barrel off your forehead if ya ain't careful and ready for it! 

[SHOOTALL]

The 20 round 44 mags ment for a rifle that i have shot don't seem to build up as much pressure in a handgun length bbl.
 I agree you can load up enough to shake a blackhawk loose ( I did ) but i have yet to hurt a Redhawk and that is what a M-29 would /should be compared to as both are DA. I ruined a M-29 Custom DX 5 in factory bbl. ( still hurts ) . If your friend has a nice shooting M-29 why risk messing it up ? Stick with "normal" factory loads . Long before you notice a gun shooting loose ( unless like i did you shoot loads ment for a Ruger in it and lock it up ) it will start to  lose accy. why do that ?
I shoot Rugers because i like to max. out the loads and see no reason to destory another S&W . They are fine guns with a history and design from a different time .

[Davemuzz]

Well, for WIW, I don't really see the value of jamin in "Howitzer" type loads into any 44 magnum. Be it a Ruger or a Smith. If you want to shoot a handfull of power and accuracy, then why not just get a 454 Casull in a quality Freedom Arms?

Dave

[SHOOTALL]

I have a Ruger super redhawk in 454 and have shot several FA's very powerful handguns for sure and great fun to shoot . Both are heavy to carry ! And the loads for the redhawk i am talking about are between a 44mag and a 454 .
What i don't understand is the misunderstanding of increasing preformance over factory offerings . I understand those who are not confident in their loading skills or don't have access to equipment not trying to max out loads it shows they are responsible in their pratices but to cut down those who are willing to experiment in a safe manner and increase usefulness of a round quite honestly smells of sour grapes !

As example a Redhawk in 45 Colt is built as strong as any production 44mag. yet most factory ammo is loaded to 1873 power . Now it seems ok to buy ammo from BB that will work ( ammo that would blow a ssa apart ) but to load ones own is taboo to some . Why is that ?

If all shooters shared that concept we would have no 44 mag. 357 mag. 25-06 or 22-250 etc. and that fellow shooters would be a shame !

[S.B.]

SHOOTALL, if in any given deer season you'ld happen to kill two deer one with factory rounds the other with your hot reloads, would on be more deader than the other?
Sorry, I just don't understand your philosophy on this matter?
Steve

[SHOOTALL]

That's a fair ? , At 50 yards the deer would not know a difference , the shooter may notice the hoter load shooting flater if same bullet weight was used and that's a maybe. The noticeable difference would show up at greater distances and with heavyer than standard bullets . I shot IHMSA for years and at 200 meters a hot 44 mag. would knock over a 53 lb. ram . a 45 Colt was not dependable at doing so . A 45 Colt loaded to same Vel. as a 44 mag would do a nice job and was still less pressure than a 44 mag. in many cases . If i remember the arc of the standard 44 mag, with a 240 gr factory loaded SJHP was over 12 ft. by increasing vel. you could lower the height of the arc of the bullet and not have to add as many clicks to your sight adjustment . In the hunting field it would increase point blank distance .
To be honest in most hunting i use the 45 Colt loaded to near 44 mag spec. If shooting long range the 454 loaded with light bullets as that's where it really shows its stuff is the ticket.
Look at the hot loads as an option , something to improve or add usefulness to an already good tool .
Now a more direct ansewer to your ? I would have more range with the hotter load . For no other reason than it would have more energy to impact the target at greater distance , it would leave the bbl faster allowing less time for the shooter to mess up the shot so if range was 100 yards the 2 deer might end up as dead but one may get to that point in a quicker and more humane fashion .

[Mohawk]

Some of the loads such as Buffalo Bore are loaded very interestingly. They have a .357 Mag loading that about matches the ballistics of a .30-30 when fired from a rifle. And another .357 that clocks at over 1,600fps from a 4" barrel using a 125gr bullet.

[Travis Morgan]

The max. H-110 load in .357 magnum using a 125 gr. bullet will do .30-30 velocities. IT's loud as hell, though. I won't shoot it without hearing protection.

[SHOOTALL]

Got to ask what reloading man. do you get those loads ? Or are they ones you made ?
the 30-30 win. 170 gr bullet maxes out around 2200 fps in most loadings give or take a few fps .
125gr. bullet in a 357 mag. 1750 fps . = or - a few fps . A 357 max. will get you over 1900 fps , in a TC you might equal it but then the 30-30 with a 110 gr bullet would pass 2600 fps .
Always intrested in new loadings , thanks