Author Topic: Powder Question  (Read 1384 times)

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Offline JayAK

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Powder Question
« on: June 24, 2009, 02:35:19 PM »
I have always used FFG Goex powder when shooting my muzzle loaders....

What is the difference between FFG and Cannon powder? grain size etc....but what about burn rates etc...

Can one use FFG in a small cannon or should I stick to Cannon powder...

I can get FFG in town, but I would have to order the Cannon....

Thanks!

Offline STexhunter

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2009, 03:11:51 PM »
I'm still new to cannons but, I use FFG in my small golf ball howitzer and so far its worked great.  I have a 3/4 X 1.25 chamber and I don't use large charges.  I guess it would depend on size of cannon, bore size, projectile size and type, if you have a powder chamber etc..   

Offline Double D

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2009, 04:29:31 PM »
For Cannons over one inch you should consider using Cannon grade.   FFg has a faster burn rate than FG or Cannon and generates more pressure.  If you get a copy of The More Complete Cannoneer you can read  Matt Switlik pressure test of Fg vs Cannon grade. Switlik found that in equal charges of Fg  and Cannon grade, FG generated 40% more pressure for no increase in velocity. For Under 2 inch you should be alright with Fg, but don't exceed  Switliks chart on Maximum loads and follow his sage advice to start ridiculously low.  50% of max load is a good place to start.

FFg might work find with a light projectile with good windage, like a golf ball but if you change to a lead opr zinc ball you migh havfe problems. 

You find Switliks chart in our sticky at the top of the forum called safe loads and cannon plans.

Offline subdjoe

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2009, 05:36:39 PM »
OK, how can you have 40% more pressure, but no increase in velocity?  Something to do with the pressure curve?  Maybe a huge spike before the projectile started to move, which spent itself out the vent or past the projectile. 
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline JayAK

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2009, 05:53:08 PM »
For Cannons over one inch you should consider using Cannon grade.   FFg has a faster burn rate than FG or Cannon and generates more pressure.  If you get a copy of The More Complete Cannoneer you can read  Matt Switlik pressure test of Fg vs Cannon grade. Switlik found that in equal charges of Fg  and Cannon grade, FG generated 40% more pressure for no increase in velocity. For Under 2 inch you should be alright with Fg, but don't exceed  Switliks chart on Maximum loads and follow his sage advice to start ridiculously low.  50% of max load is a good place to start.

FFg might work find with a light projectile with good windage, like a golf ball but if you change to a lead opr zinc ball you migh havfe problems. 

You find Switliks chart in our sticky at the top of the forum called safe loads and cannon plans.

I will bookmark the sticky...
I am ordering a 1.75" (Golf Ball) cannon from Dominick. 
I guess I will go with the cannon grade powder. 
Where can I get a copy of that book? Is there a sticky for the book?

Thanks!

JayAK

Offline JayAK

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2009, 05:53:40 PM »
OK, how can you have 40% more pressure, but no increase in velocity?  Something to do with the pressure curve?  Maybe a huge spike before the projectile started to move, which spent itself out the vent or past the projectile. 

Good question ???

Offline JayAK

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2009, 06:01:16 PM »
Found the book in the sticky section ;D

Offline Ex 49'er

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 06:41:34 PM »
Which GB cannon are you going to get from Dominick? I recently ordered one of his Parrott's.
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline JayAK

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2009, 06:55:09 PM »
Which GB cannon are you going to get from Dominick? I recently ordered one of his Parrott's.

"Sawyer Rifle"

Offline JayAK

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2009, 07:03:30 PM »
Did you just get the barrel and you are making the carriage or is he doing the whole thing?

I wish I could build mine, but I don't have the time, space, or tools....

Offline JayAK

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2009, 07:04:12 PM »
or skills ;D

Offline Ex 49'er

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2009, 08:32:19 PM »
I don't have the skills, either. Dom is going to build the entire cannon.
It'll be like this one: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,174166.0.html
When you're walking on eggs; don't hop!!

Offline Victor3

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2009, 01:25:40 AM »
 Looks like just about everyone here is gonna eventually end up having something from this Dom guy ;D

 One fringe benefit of using cannon grade is the sparky effect when fired in low light conditions. I used to have some FA powder (~2x the grain size of Goex Cannon, IIRC). Looked really neat at night firing blanks.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2009, 02:26:09 PM »
OK, how can you have 40% more pressure, but no increase in velocity?  Something to do with the pressure curve?  Maybe a huge spike before the projectile started to move, which spent itself out the vent or past the projectile. 

Good question ???

Easy.  THe pressure spike occurs for a VERY short period of time.  Enough to test the metal for sure.  But the ball moves and accelerates for a MUCH longer period of time.  Hence the need to use a coarse powder that will maintain the volume pushing the ball out the tube.
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Offline subdjoe

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2009, 05:11:17 PM »
OK, how can you have 40% more pressure, but no increase in velocity?  Something to do with the pressure curve?  Maybe a huge spike before the projectile started to move, which spent itself out the vent or past the projectile. 

Good question ???

Easy.  THe pressure spike occurs for a VERY short period of time.  Enough to test the metal for sure.  But the ball moves and accelerates for a MUCH longer period of time.  Hence the need to use a coarse powder that will maintain the volume pushing the ball out the tube.

So in essence, the pressuer is starting to go down before the projectice really starts moving.  OK< makes sense.  Thank you
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline JayAK

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2009, 06:27:11 PM »
OK, how can you have 40% more pressure, but no increase in velocity?  Something to do with the pressure curve?  Maybe a huge spike before the projectile started to move, which spent itself out the vent or past the projectile. 

Good question ???

Easy.  THe pressure spike occurs for a VERY short period of time.  Enough to test the metal for sure.  But the ball moves and accelerates for a MUCH longer period of time.  Hence the need to use a coarse powder that will maintain the volume pushing the ball out the tube.


Cool thanks for the great info!

Offline JayAK

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2009, 07:18:55 PM »
I don't have the skills, either. Dom is going to build the entire cannon.
It'll be like this one: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,174166.0.html

Cool choice of cannons!

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2009, 12:44:08 AM »
Blackpowder burns above the surface of the grain - in a way self-limiting in rate of burning.  That makes it MUCH more consistant in burning rate than smokeless - there the increase in pressure increases the rate of burning as it burns through and in the grain.  (Evidenced by the VERY low standard deviations of velocity in BP cast bullet shooting.)

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Offline Victor3

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2009, 02:09:27 AM »
OK, how can you have 40% more pressure, but no increase in velocity?  Something to do with the pressure curve?  Maybe a huge spike before the projectile started to move, which spent itself out the vent or past the projectile. 

Good question ???

Easy.  THe pressure spike occurs for a VERY short period of time.  Enough to test the metal for sure.  But the ball moves and accelerates for a MUCH longer period of time.  Hence the need to use a coarse powder that will maintain the volume pushing the ball out the tube.


 Interesting...

 I'd think that determining optimal powder grain size/burn rate for a particular barrel and projectile would involve:

 1. Bore diameter
 2. Bore length
 3. Projectile weight
 4. Windage (Plenty with a smooth bore, none with a rifled bbl)
 5. Reduced powder chamber diameter/no chamber
 6. Resistance to the projectile moving through the bore (Which could be significant in a rifled bbl using a projectile with a lot of area contacting the bore)

 If I'm not mistaken, the volume of gas produced by a given weight of black powder is equal regardless of grain size. The speed at which the charge burns determines how quickly that volume of gas is produced. That's why you can build a model rocket motor with one "grain" of black powder and not have it blow up on the launch pad; it burns relatively slowly.

 In a long smooth bore bbl using a heavy projectile with windage, I can see the benefit of a coarse powder/slower burn so that the gas isn't produced too rapidly (creating higher initial pressure) and blown past the projectile and out the vent before it starts moving significantly. Using a fast-burning powder here wouldn't be efficient as it would produce more pressure but may not increase velocity significantly, as some of the expanding gas is wasted.

 On the other hand, using a slow burning powder with a light projectile from a short bbl could also be a waste, as much of the powder might be unburned by the time the ball is long gone.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline RocklockI

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2009, 03:51:24 PM »
I would recomend Doms all metal carriages . They look good , no one who has seen mine has said ....'oh a steel carriage.....' most say 'h*ly sh$t  :o

The best thing about them is you can shoot the dickins out of the thing , nothing gets loose . It's hard enough trying hit anything , never mind any wood issues .

I'd love to have white oak carriage with dished wheels ........but no compaints about Doms at all .

"I've seen too much not to stay in touch , With a world full of love and luck, I got a big suspicion 'bout ammunition I never forget to duck" J.B.

Offline JayAK

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Re: Powder Question
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2009, 05:49:08 PM »
I am going with all steel...  8)