Question for Sourdough

[Rustyinfla]

  Others might know but I think he will as well. You talked about hanging around the Vol. Fire Dept. so I assume you know a bit about it's workings. MY question is what do they do to the water in the tanks of the fire engines to keep the water from freezing up there? I guess this is silly but I was wondering about it after reading the thread about the tats.

  Thanks,

[CannonKrazy]

I work with a company that makes the pump stations that go in fire trucks. From what information I have read most departments that are in freezing conditions add antifreeze ( biodegradable) to the water. Some will have tank heaters like heavy equipment or big truck engines that stay plugged in until needed.
For the departments that don't have these luxurys draining the pump and closing off the tank valves is a solution.

[Sourdough]

The trucks are kept inside a heated fire station.  When they go out the water will not freeze so fast that they can not turn on the pumps and start spraying.  At 50 below it will take quite a while (couple of hours) before the water in the tanks begins to freeze.  Reason is that there is so much of it, and it is warm from being inside.  There is no water in the pumps or lines till they open the main valve from the tanks.  That way the smaller lines will not freeze.  Once they are charged and in use they won't freeze till they stop using them.  But once they stop using the small lines and pumps they have to shut them down and drain them fast or they will freeze up solid.  Then it is back inside the fire station to warm back up.  If a pumper truck is hooked up to a fire hydrant the water coming from the water main is also warm and helps keep the pumps and lines on the truck from freezing.  Again once the pumping is shut down they have to drain the lines and pumps fast, then back to the fire station.

[Rustyinfla]

  Thanks, I was wondering because I've heard accounts of bush pilots draining the oil from a still warm engine so it could be heated before starting the engine again. I wondered if the Fire dept. might use some kind of antifreeze.

[Dand]

In some of our small Alaskan villages, especially now with the huge cost of heating oil, we are having troubles keeping fire equipment functioning in winter (if they have any equipment at all).

[Sourdough]

Rusty:  That bit about draining the oil out of the airplane is correct.  You drain it while the engine is still warm so it will drain out.  Then you take it into the cabin where it is warmer.  Before you are ready to leave you warm that oil up, usually by putting it on the stove.  When poured back into the plane it warms the engine enough that it will start. 

I currently have a four stroke snowmachine.  Up till a few years ago all snowmachines were two stroke and did not have a problem with cold crankcase oil.  I use 0-W5 weight synthetic oil in the engine.  My snowmachine will start down to 30 below.  After that I carry a small generator that is two stroke and start it up and plug in the snowmachine.  I have an engine heater on it just like we use on our cars.  This heater warms the antifreeze and circulates it through the engine, warming it up enough so that it will start.  I've done other tricks like sitting a can of Sterno under the crankcase to warm up the engine.  Putting a tarp over the door of the cabin and parking the snowmachines under the tarp.  In the morning leaving the door open so the snowmachines will warm up, before we are ready to leave.

Last year I took my Suzuki Samurai out to the cabin.  Over night it dropped to 50 below.  In the morning I built a fire in a pit outside.  When the fire burned down to hot coals we pushed the Sammy over the pit.  We then put a tarp over the truck and let it drape down to the ground.  It took about 30 minutes for it to warm enough to start.  I could have done the trick with draining the oil, and heating it, which would have also started the engine, but we did not think about it dropping that cold over night.  Once the oil gets cold it won't drain.

As for how the villages keep their fire equipment ready, I can not answer that.  I have never spent that much time in the villages during the winter.  Most do not have a big fire station, and without that they can not keep a fire truck warm.  The villages along the rivers get fuel oil for heating, the others use fire wood.  It would be extreamely hard to keep any type of equipment warm.  Fighting a fire would be almost impossible.  In most cases if a structure caught fire the locals would try and protect neighboring buildings and just let that one burn.  Putting it out would not be an option.   

[Rustyinfla]

    And just think, last night when I left the house to go to work at 2 AM it was still 80° outside here.

[45-70.gov]

seems  like they would run the exaust pipe through  the water tank

and  use the tank for  a radiator

then  they  could  clear  the roads  with  hot water  instead of plows



but  i guess  if it  ain't broke  no need to fix it

[Sourdough]

45-70:  The volume of water we are talking about would not gain enough heat to make it worthwhile. 

You can not use hot water to clear the roads.  That would make a very nice skating rink.  Hot water freezes faster than cold water.

My wife has fun with newbies the first time the temp drops below 50 below.  She takes them outside and has them toss a glass of cold water into the air.  The cold water will string out into icicles then freeze.  That will make hundreds of little icicles as it falls to the ground.  Then they throw a class of hot water up into the air, the hot water flash freezes into a cloud of frozen mist, and floats away as ice fog, never reaching the ground.

Other little tidbits:  The sidewalls of tires freeze and if you hit something like rail road tracks or a big pot hole hard it will pop the bead, and the frozen tire will roll right off the wheel.  Springs become brittle, and will break if you hit a pot hole too hard, so will shocks.  Do not use your parking break after 30 below, it will freeze on and the vehicle will not be able to move till it is taken into a garage and thawed out.  Do not remove a vehicle from a warm building, such as a garage and park it outside.  It must be kept moving till the tires get cold, otherwise the tires will freeze down and the vehicle can not be moved till the temp warms up.  That could be spring.  Saw a guy try and force his Chevy Blazer to move after the tires had frozen down.  He had removed his truck from a warm building and parked it out side, leaving it running.  The tires froze to the ice on the ground.  He came outside and put the truck in low range.  Gunning the engine he dumped the clutch.  Ripped the protion of the tire that was in contact with the ground right off the wheel.  He ended up driving home on four rims.

Another deadly thing.  After my wedding in November 1972, one of the guest at the reception hid a bottle of booze outside.  It was 65 below that night, and he had been drinking all afternoon and was already drunk.  He went outside and took a big swig.  Instantly froze his throat and stomach.  He was found dead in the driveway, unable to make it back into the house.  The cold can be rough on drunks, and fools.   

[45-70.gov]

i  once  saw  ice in  my dogs water bowl

about  10 years ago  i had an  outside faucet freeze  and bust  too

[Heather]

Man Sourdough being from Alabama myself I can't even imagine those extreme temps.  I know folks around here that can't seem to get their liquor cold enough even in the freezer.  Sure wouldn't want it that cold though.  I tried to think of a way he could have been saved, but even in warm weather I imagine he would have suffocated before he thawed...ugh..

Heather

[hunt-m-up]

If we get a week of subzero we whine and bitch about it...I can't imagine 50 below. The most we ever experience around here/IA is dead batteries and gelled diesel. Vehicle tires freezing down just amazes me! Do soft plug or tank type engine heaters do any good when it's that cold? How do you keep the diesels running? Straight kerosene?

[Rustyinfla]

  I know in WV on the strip mines they do run the truck exhaust through a double bed to keep the coal from freezing into the beds in the winter time. MY bil was a mechanic on one of those mines he told me they did something to keep the cat tracks from freezing to the ground too but I can't recall what it was right now.

[WylieKy]

My grandparents owned a house with 3 1/2 floors (built into a hillside.) I can remember standing on the deck on the top floor when it was around -25 and peeing off the deck.  It froze before hitting the ground and you could hear it tinkeling down the driveway! 

[45-70.gov]

IT  WAS  SO  COLD  THAT WINTER THE CAMP  FIRES  FROZE  SOLID

and  when  it thawed  in the spring  the  camp fires set the forest ablaze

but  me and  babe  were  able  to put out the fires

[Sourdough]

I used to use the old tank type heaters, but not I use the engine plug type or the little pad heaters that glue to the oil pan.  At 10 below I have to plug in my Diesel truck.  The gas engines start down to 20 below, then have to be plugged in.  I have never tried to start my big diesel truck colder than 30 below.  Don't know if it would start or not.  I drive the little KIA or the Suzuki during the winter, we keep them in the garage.  We use Number one diesel so it does not gel.  After 50 below I don't go outside unless I really have to.

In years past I worked outside during the winter and was outside down to 75 below.  We're not talking chill factor here but real temp.  You can only work for a matter of minutes then you have to go in to warm up.  I have camped out while hunting at 35 below in a tent, with no heater.  Just a good arctic sleeping bag.  One of the things my son's Cub Scout Den accomplished was to go camping out at 30 below.  They built snow caves, to keep warm, and to sleep in that night.  A friend of ours was the den leader, and he slept out with the boys.  Tim packed 10 boys into that snow cave.  Tim said about midnight the boys finally got tired and fell asleep.  They slept till 8 AM, when one of the boys had to go out and pee.  When the flap was opened and the cold air came in, everyone was awake and had to go.  It was a good learning and self confidence building experience for them.

[Brett]

Sorry, posted under wrong topic.