Author Topic: I need help, 357 mag (Read 1656 times)

Hank in Indiana · « **on:** May 05, 2009, 04:05:53 AM »

My Handi 357 mag shoots 6"-8" groups at 50 yds. I've been reloading 39 years. I tried 8 different bullets, 8 powders, 2 primers, 2 cases, and 5 factory loads. I remounted the scope base, changed rings, and changed scopes. I'm sniper trained and know how to jerk a trigger. The only change was an occasional 12" group at 50. I did discover that the chamber is cut .160 to deep and the cone to .358 is an additional .310 longer. This means that a 158 grain bullet is in unsupported free flight for .160 before the ogive engages the rifling. The bullet has no back support as it has left the case to ensure that the bullet is true to the barrel. Meaning that it could fishtail as the bullet enters the rifling. My 4" pistol with open sights will outshoot the Handi with a nikon scope. I measured the chamber on the pistol and found that it is cut .030 over with a cone length of .080. The bullets enter the rifling before leaving the cartridge case leaving no room to fishtail into the rifling. My question is would it help to get maximun cases and trim them to 1.450 to fit the chamber. This would shorten the distance to the riflling to .315 so the bullet would have some support as it enters the rifling. Sorry for the long post. I'm desperate.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #1 on:** May 05, 2009, 05:20:15 AM »

Read The FAQ'S a guy with all your training will do well with all the magic that is in there . It is compiled from hundreds of yrs of experience from some folks who do nothin but play with these rifles ."Check the Faq's it's in there". By the way welcome aboard. Kurt

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 05, 2009, 05:44:43 AM »

As far as I know all 357 Handis have this throat dilemma. Mine did. Since others have had your same situation and have got theirs to shoot well - I would say it is some thing with lock up, a crown problem or a fore end problem or maybe a combination of them all. As advised read through the FAQ slowly - thinking about the problems that are getting solved. After you have a good picture of what you want to do, try one thing at a time to see if it improves your accuracy. Start with lock up and make sure you are getting a good tigh lockup and the latch is engaged all the way across. If that is bad, fix it...the fixes are in the FAQ. Next try to shoot it with the fore end off resting under the frame - any improvement? If so you need to do some thing with the fore end. Again; look in the FAQ how to-s. If not look at the crown to make sure you do not have a nick in it or a dent. Some times I just re-crown, even if it looks OK, because it can throw shots even if it looks OK. Good Luck and Good Shooting

petemi · « **Reply #3 on:** May 05, 2009, 06:22:12 AM »

I've had three .357 Handi barrels now, and all three shot one hole groups at 60 yards out of the box. One thought came to mind is instead of trimming .357 Max brass down, why don't you ream the barrel to .357 Maximum? Another thought, will it shoot .357 DW?

Pete

Lefty Dude · « **Reply #4 on:** May 05, 2009, 07:31:52 AM »

Of all the things you checked, you did not indicate if you slugged the bore. If you slug the bore this will give you an idea of what your bore groove diameter might be and also you can measure how deep the rifling goove grooves are.

Along with the sloppy chamber, it could have a sloppy bore also.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** May 05, 2009, 07:33:31 AM »

Welcome Hank! Pete makes a good point, reaming by hand to 357 Remington Maximum (see FAQs) would optimize your Handi for Indiana deer hunting, and as he mention, just using 360 Dan Wesson brass would help, both are legal at less than 1.625" case length. As has been recommended, spend some time reading in the FAQs and Help sticky and read the Handi Basics 101, they're there to help with your Handi as they have for countless Handi owners before you.

Tim

http://www.ottllc.com/specialtypistols/sp10.html

http://357maximum.com/

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #6 on:** May 05, 2009, 07:43:58 AM »

Thanks for your ideas. I had one other suggestion, use it to stake my tomato plants.

myarmor · « **Reply #7 on:** May 05, 2009, 08:05:25 AM »

If you don't like it I am sure it would sale quickly in the classifieds.... just a thought

-Aaron

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** May 05, 2009, 08:12:48 AM »

As Aaron said, there are at least two "want to buy" 357mag barrel ads in the H&R classifieds right now, it's one of the most popular and great shooting chamberings H&R offers. After you read the Handi Basics 101 and have all the bases covered there and still can't get it to shoot good, H&R's standard of accuracy is 2" or less 100yd 3-shot groups with factory ammo, so contact them and make arrangements to have it returned and repaired. But my first guess is a simple fix, oil on the latch/latch shelf will destroy accuracy and is reported by H&R gunsmiths to be the number one repair they do, so check that first.

Tim

petemi · « **Reply #9 on:** May 05, 2009, 02:17:15 PM »

I'll take off your hands for a dollar three eighty. Seriously, I hope you get it fixed. I was just bragging on another thread how great the .357s are an you have to come along and blow it to bits. Man, I wish I had the rifle in my hands so I could help you better. Your problem is NOT normal.

Pete

cwlongshot · « **Reply #10 on:** May 06, 2009, 12:23:23 AM »

I agree with all posts so far.

You sound capable and seem to know what you need to make a gun shoot. I would Start with the barrel lock up as suggested. here is a link to the FAQ's at the top of this page: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,26264.0.html

Look thru and find the area on latch engagement. once you have exhausted the tips there, send it back to H&R/REMINGTON. As Tim stated, yours is WAY past there accuracy guarantee.

Good luck and WELCOME!!!

CW

petemi · « **Reply #11 on:** May 06, 2009, 04:04:00 AM »

Tim, are you telling me I'm finally learning and doing something right for a change?? I guess I'm not, I put in .357 instead of .360. That was reflex.

The Max should be there and worked on today. I'm foaming at the mouth waiting for it to come home.

Pete

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** May 06, 2009, 05:01:31 AM »

You did good Pete, that was close enough!!

Even tho I have a 35 Remington Handi, I still may rechamber my 357 to Max, so I bought some brass while I could...... just in case!!!

Tim

mechanic · « **Reply #13 on:** May 06, 2009, 11:21:45 AM »

I, too, got ahold of some max. brass a while back, but I only have to shave a few thousands off it to use it as is in my .357. Don't see much need to ream it. With a bullet loosely seated in the brass at the cannelure, and closing the breech, the cannelure is still visible upon opening......Shoots well with everything I have tried under 200 gr.

Quote from: Hank in Indiana on May 05, 2009, 07:43:58 AM

Thanks for your ideas. I had one other suggestion, use it to stake my tomato plants.

Work with it a bit, I think you will like the result....great Handi caliber.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** May 06, 2009, 11:26:16 AM »

Many/most are like that Ben, but I have to trim 360DW brass to fit in mine, I converted it to an ejector, if I don't trim it .010" shorter, it won't eject. $:-\$

Tim

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #15 on:** May 06, 2009, 11:26:24 AM »

Make sure your front sandbag is as close to the hinge as possible.

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2009, 12:53:14 PM »

Mechanic, Did you get better groups with the longer brass in the long chamber. I know some have reported good groups with 38 special and thats a long jump to the rifling. I hate to buy max brass unless it helps the accuracy. If I get this to shoot I will try it for deer but the mags with 158g and 18 grains of Lil-gun were going through my chrony at 1955 avg. vel. I usually only shoot 2 shots during deer season and I have a bucket of mag brass.

mechanic · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2009, 03:10:12 PM »

I can't tell a lot of difference, if any in the accuracy between 357 and max brass. There is some difference in the 38's, but I load a lot lower. At 50 yds. I can get 1" groups with 38, at 100 yd. I can get 3/4" with mag or max brass. I don't load any of this near max. To me its a waste of powder, as I get my best accuracy with a mid range group. Been using Unique in the long brass and Bullseye in the 38. I found a few max. brass left lying at the range, and bought some more on a good deal when looking for mag. brass.

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #18 on:** May 07, 2009, 12:37:16 AM »

Thats amazing. When I mounted the scope the first time I put a target at 7 yds to get the scope close. My groups at 7 were 2" with 38's.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #19 on:** May 07, 2009, 08:06:08 AM »

Mechanic your chamber and mine must of been cut the same day same machine same operator my thoughts are identical to yours. kurt

chipmunk · « **Reply #20 on:** May 07, 2009, 08:32:35 AM »

2" at 7 yards??? I have an old HOMEMADE smooth bore musket that could outdo that!

I understand that the jump of the 38 to the rifling would reduce accuracy some...but it shouldn't be that bad. I'm just a novice with the handi so I can't offer advice, but I'd say it's something major. Hope you get it worked out.

udtjim · « **Reply #21 on:** May 07, 2009, 01:18:14 PM »

I should be ashamed. I had my 357 reamed to Max well over a year ago and have not even loaded a shell for it yet.

I did get 200 brass though.

petemi · « **Reply #22 on:** May 08, 2009, 08:46:55 AM »

Udtjim, I found loaded .357 Max cartridges at ammobank.com at about 53 bucks for 50. I didn't think that was too bad with the price of everything these days, and I'll have 50 brass to reload. My barrel will be shooting 10 minutes after it gets back in the door. The .357 mag. barrel is down near Saginaw getting reamed. I should have it back in a few days. Don't wait to reload it, git some boolits and shoot it

Pete

db22 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 09, 2009, 02:08:03 AM »

As of last week, Midsouth had .357 Max brass in stock. I keep a couple hundred on the shelf at all times JIC, even though the 50 or so I have in circulation have not come close to wearing out. Smartest thing I ever did -- reaming the Mag out to Max. I don't wanna think about all the not-so-smart things I have done . . .

Hank: My .357 barrel likes bullets .358" and larger. It shoots the Hornady 200-grain .358" RN better than any other jacketed bullet, over a top-end charge of Rel 7. I size cast bullets to .359" and .360" with no problems. The Lyman 358627, a 210-grain GCSWC, shoots really well over Rel 7 or IMR4227.

That said, mine did a heck of a lot better before conversion than yours is doing now. Lots of .357 Handi fans here, so we'll be waiting to hear your next results.

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #24 on:** May 09, 2009, 03:39:10 AM »

It rained the other day so I took the Handi apart. I went through the FAQ's and stoned, filed, poked, punched and hit everything I could. I did improve it some. At 100 I had some 4" groups but only with round nose bullets at 700 fps. I pushed the vel. a bit and the groups went south. Wad cutter and SWC were off the target most of the time. I didn't slug the barrel but I'll try that. The lead bullets are gas checked and sized to .358.

petemi · « **Reply #25 on:** May 09, 2009, 05:45:11 AM »

Quote from: db22 on May 09, 2009, 02:08:03 AM

I don't wanna think about all the not-so-smart things I have done . . .

You too, eh? Me too

Pete

coues2506 · « **Reply #26 on:** May 11, 2009, 05:51:35 AM »

You tried 8 bullets? Were they jacketed? Mine shoots jacketed well, lead not so good.

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2009, 12:53:31 PM »

WW110, Hornady 125, Rem 125, Rem 158, and WW 158g. The Hornady 125 JHP shot the best and WW 110 JHP were the next best. Neither were good.

Hank in Indiana · « **Reply #28 on:** May 13, 2009, 10:24:58 AM »

I've tried 14-18 grs of Lil-gun with 158 JSP rem and ww. They shoot 2-3" at 50. I'm shooting off a bench with sandbags, It should shoot better than that. I shoot other rifles when the barrels are cooling and they shoot great.

Your primer problem, you might try rifle primers. They are a little stronger.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** May 13, 2009, 11:50:08 AM »

Basics are often overlooked, particularly #7, if that doesn't help, contact H&R to make arrangements to return it, it should shoot 2" or better 3-shot 100yd groups with factory ammo.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,116451.msg1098375514.html#msg1098375514