hardcast velocity, effectivences vs volume

[ccoker]

I thought about this last night and had some questions some of the more experienced handgun hunters and especially reloaders maybe can answer.... (and I am 100% a believer in all this is really a mute point as long as the bullet placement trumps everything)

It seems that Veral Smith advocates running around 1200 FPS or more for optimum killing power while Marshall Stanton says 1100 is plenty (talking in a 44 mag specifically, though a 41 or 45 shouldn't be that much different if the bullet is in the right spot)

1100 is subsonic and should have less "crack" and be gentler on the hearing and have less muzzle flash in low light


I have seen posts where people have said with heavy (250 or more) hardcast they see no difference in performance between 1000-1400 FPS, though the faster is going to have a bit flatter trajectory....

anyone with actual field experiences care to to comment?

[jhalcott]

 Bullet SHAPE has a lot to do with terminal performance when HUNTING! A round nose will punch smaller holes in paper too. I do not believe 100 fps will make a HUGE difference on game in the field. IF you can not hit the vitals ,you should not be shooting!
  I have SEEN posts where 1" groups at 100 yards are common for the shooter. This is supposed to be a STANDARD accuracy level for all of us. I admit that I cannot do this(1"@100). Although I HAVE killed a few deer and other critters at 100 yards with less accuracy to boot! Consult a few reloading manuals and see how much difference in trajectory you get for the added 3 to 400 fps. THEN calculate the added RECOIL from those fps's. I, personally ,have no desire to beat myself to death trying to kill a deer. I get as close as possible before shooting. Doing this I can have a good bit less MUZZLE velocity and still have enough speed to penetrate the animal (TERMINAL velocity)! YOU will have to decide what YOU are willing to do. Long shots and high muzzle velocity(& recoil). Or slower, less recoiling ammunition that kills well.

[AtlLaw]

Great question!     And from the guy who gave me the hots to get a Ruger SBH Bisley!   

I started out with GB's load for the 240 gr. SWC with 2400 and like it a lot.  I've got some 260 gr. LBTWFN's coming from Montana B.W.'s and I'm looking at trying for 1100 fps for this years hunting load.  Naturally I'm anxious to see what replys you get!   

[ccoker]

I should have put using the same bullet, that was a given in my head when I was writing that..
say a 250-300g hardcast, keith style or WFN

some of this questioning is just from my background growing up with rifles deer hunting in South Texas where small caliber, fast and light were king....  I firmly believe that putting the bullet in the right spot is everything, just kind of wondering if you can get away with 1000-1100 FPS and it has less recoil, blast and flash from a handgun, why not go that route?

well, there is s part of me that has a hard time not wanting the velocity....


not talking defense against an attacking Grizzly, normal whitetail or hog huntin

[Mikey]

You are pretty much right, if not totally correct.  A 250-300 gn hardcast Keith style bullet at between 1000 - 1100'/sec is more than adequate for most whitetail and hog I have ever met and will certainly fix the buttons on most bear unless they are close to being monster size and then jumping the velocity of that slug to 1100 - 1200 should handle most of them.....

Your readings of Smith and Stanton are also correct.  Smith references the optimal performance of his bullet designs at about 1200'/sec or better while Stanton opines that his/Smith's bullet designs will work as well at 1100'/sec. 

And you are also correct in this context in that bullet placement is everything.  A 250-300 gn Keith style hardcast slug at anywhere between 1000 and 1100'/sec, properly placed, will take your game.  If ya miss, however, the game is up..........jmtcw.

[Hank08]

A big part of the answer depends on the shooter.  Can the shooter shoot just as accurately with the 1200+ load a s the 1000-1100 load?  If you can then why not shoot the heavier load.
The heavier load does more damage so should kill quicker.  I shoot 320 gr. @ 1250 from Ruger 44s and 45C, both shoot great for me.  On the other hand I remember guiding a hunter who had a new Ruger SBH 71/2" and I spotted a buck about 75 yds. away and told him to take him. Boom, down went the buck, i thought that wasn't a very loud boom, then found he had factory .44 spl. round nose ammo which clocks about 700 fps.  When a hunter has killed a 100 deer or so with various bullets at various speeds all from handguns he might start to get a handle on what really works.  Til then we're just guessing at what's best.
H08

[John R.]

My heaviest load in my Ruger Bisley 45 Colt is a 325 gr. WLN @ 1200fps. Last year I killed a 200 lb. boar hog with a 270 SAA running 1000 fps. The bullet had complete penetration, end result was a dead hog. On deer or hogs, I don't think a couple of hundred feet per second is going to make that much difference. The 1000 fps load is much more comfortable to shoot.

[Sverre A.]

Recently back from Africa where I used Mimek 300 gr/1000 fps., 4" cal. 44.
Warthogs which were shot - did not leave any bloodtracks before 50 m (at least), and was difficult to find in the thick bush.
They also ran 100-200 m. Penetration was straight through - also when it was hit angeled in front of the shoulder (exit in the back leg).

Antilopes ran 0-20 m (shootingdistances up to 40 m)
Zebra ran 90 m (sd 40 m).
First shot was behind the shoulders - and he "was dead" - but I shot another behind his shoulder when he started to run. The first bullet went through (almost a broadside shot). The second was found in the stomach, and it was still 296 gr.(the only bullet which was found).

I have also used cal. 45 LC/454 with HC at higher velocities - and there are much the similar results.

Can the reason be that the skin of the pigs "close" the holes?

[Lloyd Smale]

ive seen very little differnce in killing power between 1000 fps and 1300 fps. Anything less and it does start to show but even down to 800 cast bullets will kill stuff deader then dead and penetrate better then a guy would think. Go over 1300 and it starts to go the other way as its tough to get alloys that wont deform past that. Ive seen even less differnce between bullet designs like a lfn wfn or swc. Bottom line is put any of them in the vitals and the animal is dead. Miss by even a little and you will track.

[stubshaft]

ive seen very little differnce in killing power between 1000 fps and 1300 fps. Anything less and it does start to show but even down to 800 cast bullets will kill stuff deader then dead and penetrate better then a guy would think. Go over 1300 and it starts to go the other way as its tough to get alloys that wont deform past that. Ive seen even less differnce between bullet designs like a lfn wfn or swc. Bottom line is put any of them in the vitals and the animal is dead. Miss by even a little and you will track.

I presume that you are talking about a 44/45 caliber bullet?  357 on the bottom of the spectrum?  I would heartliy agree.  An animal doesn't care whether the bullet that missed him was going at 1300 or1100fps.  You gotta put it where it counts.

[GradyL41]

1" @ 100 yds -- I can do that with my 25.06 but I have no handgun Tcs or 6 guns that will do that - 3-3.5" in nice triangles @ 100 yds // mostly Load in the 1300+ range only for down range - I try keep long shots at 1100+impact  just me  as i do not other wise have a great reason-- mine would be .41 cal weapons

[BAGTIC]

Bullet Velocity has no effect on muzzle flash.

Expansion ratio and muzzle pressure do.

[ccoker]

muzzle flash is dependant upon how much unburnt powder is left when the bullet exits the muzzle, that's why you try to match the burn rate to the caliber, length of barrel and bullet weight

some LE and Mil powders have flash suppressent added to them as well

[Tallwalker]

Lower velocities in a given caliber can suggest lower pressures as well, but of course that is not always the case. It is a case in favor of the .45 Colt though because similar velocities to the .44 mag can be reached at lower pressures, especially with the heavier bullets, and that does translate into less muzzle flash, and blast, and perhaps perceived recoil.

[Larry Gibson]

I concur that any 250-300 gr bullet from a 44/45 at 1000-1200 fps is "adequate for deer/hogs.  However when you get that same bullet up to true magnum handgun velocities of 1400+ fps then there is a noticeable difference in quickness of killing between the two based on equal bullet placement.  As noted most can shoot better with the milder loads so it is the better option for them.  This also applies to the .357 and .41 magnums.  If one can accurately shoot (you must really be honest with yourself on your ability and know your limitations) then using the true magnum velocity loads is the better option when hunting.

As a side note I long ago gave up on the "behind the shoulder" shot as it does not kill quickly, particularly with handguns.  I prefer to put the bullet in the Heart lung area which is low between the legs (broadside shot) next to the brisket in most animals.  This usually results in at least one leg being broke also.  The animals do not go near as far, if at all, with this shot and they die much quicker.  I also am a fan of shooting a second or third shot, when handgun hunting, if it is possible to accurately place them.  I realise that many times the animal is gone too quickly for a second/third shot however many times they are not.  I have seen far to many hunters shoot once and then wait for the animal to die or do something.  One should always be ready for another shot and take it if you can.  Meat damage is minimal with handguns so that should not be a consideration.  Losing the animal or not making a clean kill is the consideration.  Just my thoughts.

Larry Gibson

[ccoker]

Larry, that's what I did on my recent hog with a the 44, I know I had a good shot but it was moving and the brush very thick and darkness approaching quickly
If I had hit it with a high powered rifle I would have watched the direction and waited 30 minutes
so, I put another one through the front shoulder and down it went

[millwright]

         SBH 7 1/2 240 gr hard cast swc with 10 gr of unique,  one shot 50 yds. dead moose 735 lbs. dressed weight.  He did not know how fast the bullet was going.


                            Millwright