Author Topic: Smart Car: You're joking, right?  (Read 2843 times)

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Offline ironglow

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2009, 02:34:58 PM »
 Actually Shaggy, I was quite impressed with the Smart car crash test! Keeping in mind that the aim is to save the occupants, auto makers strive to keep the occupants in a basic "cage" that does not crush. Even where it rolled over, it maintained it's safety cage integrity with belted occupants and it looked like more actual damage was doe to the larger car. Plus it fared at least as well as its big brother Mercedes in the abutment crash

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp2N0gce0-k&NR=1

  Big doesn't mean better.. ;)

  Here's a bigger one..lets see how the "safety box" performs for it !

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC1Z5R3iiTg&feature=related

   Pontiac:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlzQY36PGm0&feature=PlayList&p=BA7CD34FC3DB31FA&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=11
      VS.
  Toyota Yaris:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnWWnDwgmc&feature=related

    Sure looks like the "crush zone" and the "safety box" held up better in the little Toyota...
   

        All goes to show, it's not the size..it's the engineering. Look how driver survive in crashes @ 200 mph at Indy or Winston cup and I doubt they weigh as much as a compact sedan... ;)
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline -Shaggy-

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2009, 03:27:08 PM »
Actually Shaggy, I was quite impressed with the Smart car crash test! Keeping in mind that the aim is to save the occupants, auto makers strive to keep the occupants in a basic "cage" that does not crush. Even where it rolled over, it maintained it's safety cage integrity with belted occupants and it looked like more actual damage was doe to the larger car. Plus it fared at least as well as its big brother Mercedes in the abutment crash

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp2N0gce0-k&NR=1

  Big doesn't mean better.. ;)

  Here's a bigger one..lets see how the "safety box" performs for it !

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC1Z5R3iiTg&feature=related

    All goes to show, it's not the size..it's the engineering. Look how driver survive in crashes @ 200 mph at Indy or Winston cup and I doubt they weigh as much as a compact sedan... ;)

Yes, the cage didn't crush , but can you imagine the g-forces exerted on your head and neck in a crash like that? At least the heavier car stayed on the ground and didn't spin through the air. Indy and Nascar drivers survive partly because their head and neck are supported, more so after Dale Earnhardt basically had his head separated from his spine after hitting a wall. Surviving the initial impact doesn't do much good if you die during the secondary impacts in a tiny car like the Smartcar. Given the choice, I would have to pick something more substantial than a golf cart with doors.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2009, 03:35:13 PM »
 Gotta think engineering;
  For instance in the Pontiac vs Toyota crash test shown above; while the little Toyota didn't have near as much "crush zone", it definitely did not have as much gross weight in motion, acting to crush that zone. Remember, objects in motion tend to stay in motion and 2800 pounds (est), multiplied exponentially..crushes more than 1600 (est) pounds, multiplied exponentially.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline -Shaggy-

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2009, 04:01:44 PM »
Gotta think engineering;
  For instance in the Pontiac vs Toyota crash test shown above; while the little Toyota didn't have near as much "crush zone", it definitely did not have as much gross weight in motion, acting to crush that zone. Remember, objects in motion tend to stay in motion and 2800 pounds (est), multiplied exponentially..crushes more than 1600 (est) pounds, multiplied exponentially.

Engineering can't change the laws of physics. When a small car hits something, it will slow down faster than a larger, heavier car. The passengers don't.

http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr041409.html

"Laws of physics prevail: The Honda Fit, Smart Fortwo, and Toyota Yaris are good performers in the Institute's frontal offset barrier test, but all three are poor performers in the frontal collisions with midsize cars. These results reflect the laws of the physical universe, specifically principles related to force and distance.

Although the physics of frontal car crashes usually are described in terms of what happens to the vehicles, injuries depend on the forces that act on the occupants, and these forces are affected by two key physical factors. One is the weight of a crashing vehicle, which determines how much its velocity will change during impact. The greater the change, the greater the forces on the people inside and the higher the injury risk. The second factor is vehicle size, specifically the distance from the front of a vehicle to its occupant compartment. The longer this is, the lower the forces on the occupants.

Size and weight affect injury likelihood in all kinds of crashes. In a collision involving two vehicles that differ in size and weight, the people in the smaller, lighter vehicle will be at a disadvantage. The bigger, heavier vehicle will push the smaller, lighter one backward during the impact. This means there will be less force on the occupants of the heavier vehicle and more on the people in the lighter vehicle. Greater force means greater risk, so the likelihood of injury goes up in the smaller, lighter vehicle.

Crash statistics confirm this. The death rate in 1-3-year-old minicars in multiple-vehicle crashes during 2007 was almost twice as high as the rate in very large cars."



"Mercedes C class versus Smart Fortwo: After striking the front of the C class, the Smart went airborne and turned around 450 degrees. This contributed to excessive movement of the dummy during rebound — a dramatic indication of the Smart's poor performance but not the only one. There was extensive intrusion into the space around the dummy from head to feet. The instrument panel moved up and toward the dummy. The steering wheel was displaced upward. Multiple measures of injury likelihood, including those on the dummy's head, were poor, as were measures on both legs.

"The Smart is the smallest car we tested, so it's not surprising that its performance looked worse than the Fit's. Still both fall into the poor category, and it's hard to distinguish between poor and poorer," Lund says. "In both the Smart and Fit, occupants would be subject to high injury risk in crashes with heavier cars." In contrast, the C class held up well, with little to no intrusion into the occupant compartment. Nearly all measures of injury likelihood were in the good range."



It is because 2800 pounds crushes more than 1600 pounds that I would rather be inside the 2800 pounds.




Offline ironglow

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2009, 01:53:39 AM »
 Shaggy, you leave me puzzled..you said "when a small car crashes against something it stops FASTER"..you saw the crash tests against an immovable barrier...obviously they all stopped at the same rate ..30 to 0 in a split second...?
  The estimated 2800 and 1600 lbs I was referring to was all the weight from the firewall back, that was working to obliterate the "crush zone"..A good example of this (exaggerated) is the video of the Ontario ambulance crash that I provided.
  Actually, many people are impressed with frontal crashes, although frontal crashes into trees etc are fairly common, a genuine head-on with another vehicle is relatively rare. Around where I live, rollovers are much more common than head-ons. I tried to find comparative rollovers, but had no great success for thge minutes I spent.
  Remember, to say that a Honda for instance, is too dangerous to drive among larger cars is tantamount to saying that it is too dangerous to drive an F-150 4WD among big-rig traffic..right ?
  While one of those rare head-ons between a large car and an econobox almost always favors the large car, for the many years I have been driving small vehicles, I credit the handling and quick response of the smaller vehicle with 3 or 4 avoided accidents. One time while driving a VW Rabbit, a deer burst out from concealment. I swerved and avoided him by less than a foot (as figured by my two passengers).
 Shucks, many larger ones would have had a foot more hood to start with.. ;) :D
  Actually, the key to avoiding injury is avoiding the accident in the first place by prudent driving, and ALWAYS wear seat belts.

  BTW: I am not actually saying I think the Smart is a very safe car, I was only remarking that the crush zone worked surtprisingly well.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2009, 02:20:48 AM »
My f-250 V10 only gets 9 mpg Towing 6k lbs .
it only gets about 15 - 18 tops  on the highway.
It's my choice  - I love my Truck ..I'm not trading.

I've got an 84 f250 and I really like my truck too.....I'll keep my truck thank you very much.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline ironglow

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2009, 04:45:33 AM »
  I like my Ranger also..choices; that's what makes the world go round..
 
  Kinda makes one wonder just what cars & trucks will look like in the future if Algore and the Kenyan continue running the auto companies..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline scootrd

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2009, 06:24:04 PM »
  I like my Ranger also..choices; that's what makes the world go round..
 
  Kinda makes one wonder just what cars & trucks will look like in the future if Algore and the Kenyan continue running the auto companies..

well we definitely know what some of them will look like......   ;D

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2009, 03:32:14 AM »
Americans drive more car than they need , REALLY and who decides ? Did we already loose freedom of choice ? OH I know it was the same deciders that say we eat wrong , dress wrong , should not drink , smoke ......... Should live like them and be PC . BS !
Small cars don't stop faster in a crash they just end up with the front and rear bumper touching  more often than a full size PU or SUV. not really important unless you find yourself between the bumpers RIGHT ?
to compare a Honda and a 2500 is not realistic , O'TAY ! I don't , can't see a Honda ever filling my need like a 2500 RAM so we agree ! So why push the little car on a public that wants a 2500 ?
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline no guns here

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2009, 03:50:48 AM »
I guess I did...  Why do my opinions turn in losing freedom of choice?  I never said anything about taking away choices.  I'm talking about folks making DIFFERENT choices.  I don't think anyone is PUSHING the small car on the public.  Buy what you want and what you can afford.  I can afford a big truck but I don't NEED to drive it every day.  I have a big flat bed, a 16 foot stock trailer, a tractor and mama likes to pack heavy.  I also have four kids.  I can't get away with driving a small car only.  I can drive one most of the time and save the truck for when I NEED it.  There's a lot of folks out there that would be better served with smaller vehicles that cost less, use less fuel and are less expensive to insure.  My point is that for some reason Americans in general have a bigger is better attitude that may not reflect really well on their current economic status.  Remember... no one likes the oil companies and no one likes the ragheads.  IF we were to cut our demand, neither would make as much money.


NGH
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #40 on: May 04, 2009, 06:14:58 AM »
  I didn't notice anyone in this thread even remotely suggesting removing any choices from other drivers. All I noticed was folks voicing their opinions of why they made their choices. What works for me, may not work for you...no big deal.
  Perhaps it is because we both spent time in countries where smaller vehicles are the norm that I tend to agree with Noguns on the issue,
 but that is still a far cry from trying to tell others what they must drive.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #41 on: May 04, 2009, 07:18:00 AM »
I'm 6'2" with arthritis in my spine and neck.  That limits the vehicles I can get into.  Subarus are out.  KIA Sorinto, NO, KIA Sportage, YES.  Chevy truck NO, FORD and DODGE truck YES.  HONDA Element YES, HONDA Accord NO.  The distance from the seat to the top of the door opening is critical for me, some cars and trucks work, and some don't.  Dealers call vehicles that work ARTHRITIC FRIENDLY.

The Smart Car is arthritic friendly.  Actually I drove one this winter in Florida.  Real easy to get into and out of.  Lots of room once you are inside.  Good leg and knee room for us big tall guys.  Almost all the interior space is for two passengers.  Very little wasted space.  Saw several videos on crash test with the SMART car and was impressed.  If I was looking for a car to drive strictly back and forth to work, I'd get one.  But since I don't work I don't need one.

I'm happy with my F-350 Supercrew Duelly Diesel, Mazda RX-8, and I struggle with a Mitsubishi Eclipse.  Yes, I'm an old man, that likes high performance vehicles, that goes fast.  Here in Alaska we can do that, as long as we avoid Moose.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #42 on: May 04, 2009, 07:53:20 AM »
I voiced my opinion . I don't care for small cars . I don't believe they are safe . And it would seem our Govt. is trying to convince us to go small to match other countries along with other changes to be more like other countries . Guess i feel we are the super power , the leader not some follower suck up country .
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Aught Six

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2009, 08:15:11 AM »
I'm with Shaggy.

I wouldn't feel too smart at all if I got hit in one of those things.

It looks like a motorcycle with a thin sheet metal frame around it.

To each his own.  As for me, I'll stick with something more substantial.

Offline Sourdough

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2009, 07:25:14 AM »
If I lived in the city and the only driving I did was to the grocery and work, I might own a Smart Car.  I would never take it out on the freeway, or interstate, where speeds were above 45MPH.

To be honest I do own two high performance sports cars.  They are fast, and they use lots of premium gas.  But I also own a 1986 Suzuki Samurai.  Can't get a much cheaper built vehicle than one of these.  No air bags or padded dashes here, just lots of steel.  32 to 33 MPG when I bought it, stock.  I put a 5 1/2" lift kit on it, and 31X10.50x15 tires.  A 20% gear reduction in the transfer case in high range to compensate for the bigger tires.  Mileage dropped to 28MPG.  But when I need to go to the grocery or hardware store, or just down to the local coffee shop, I jump into the Sammy.  It's so easy to get around in parking lots.  Easy to get into and out of, and fits any parking space, even spaces that other cars or trucks don't.  If I ever get hit in it the hitting vehicle will probably be a full size truck, at which point I will surely be injured.  But oh well, that's life.  Plus traffic here is not that heavy.  Last Sunday morning took the wife into Fairbanks for Brunch at 9:30 AM.  18 miles into Fairbanks, we maybe seen 12 to 15 other vehicles total on the way into town.  So safety is not much of an issue here.  You're more likely to have your car quite and you freeze to death, than be involved in a high speed accident here.  Most high speed accidents involve Moose, and they are a bit more forgiving than hitting another vehicle.

As for a Smart car here?  Don't think it would produce enough heat for our climate.  Like the old Air Cooled VWs, engine did not get warm enough to warm the oil enough so it could circulate. 
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
What Is A Veteran?
A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline scootrd

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2009, 09:20:57 AM »
As for a Smart car here?  Don't think it would produce enough heat for our climate.  Like the old Air Cooled VWs, engine did not get warm enough to warm the oil enough so it could circulate.

Wow , there's a blast from the past.
I remember when my friend who was the first one of us guys to get a valid drivers license would drive us to school .. The VW finally got warm enough so we would not see our breath after 5 miles just in time to pull into the school parking lot. 
"if your old flathead doesn't leak you are out of oil"
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Offline Oldtimer

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2009, 09:39:19 AM »
My wife drives a 96 VW Passat with a TDI engine.  It is a medium-sized sedan and gets in the upper 40's for fuel economy.  I drove up to see our daughters in northern Virginia and did over 500 miles on 11 gallons of fuel.  When I tested the car out last year, I got it up to 95 and let off because I was catching up to traffic.  This is with the 90hp engine.  If I put in a computer chip, it goes up to 115hp and the fuel economy usually is in the 50's.  A diesel engine offers about 50% efficiency as opposed to gas engines, which are usually in the low 30's.  In addition ,the engines usually last between 300k and 400k miles. 

When I was in northern Virginia, helping Number Two Daughter find another car, I saw several early 2000 VW Passats for around $9k, with about 100k miles, just broken in well.  While I was gone,  Virginia International Raceway hosted the TDI racing series, so the engines are for more than just economy.

Offline mechanic

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2009, 12:01:26 PM »
Got an old Jeep Cherokee Sport with well over 200k.  Never been tampered with, other than at 150k I cleaned and regapped the plugs.  Gets almost 28mpg. avg.   Chevy Silverado full size extended cab, with v6, 23 mpg. highway.  I can put a smart car in the back and it won't cut my mileage more than 2 o3 mpg.

Theres nothing smart about making an underpowered vehicle.  They are trying to force us, and will eventually into driving what "they" want us to.  With the gov. owning the car companies, I betcha' they will build the cars the gov. wants them to.
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline Aught Six

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2009, 03:38:25 PM »
Somewhat off-topic:

Don't you just hate getting behind a Prius at a stoplight?

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2009, 03:39:57 PM »
I takes me longer than one light to read all the bumper stickers on the back of a Prius.  :)
held fast

Offline ironglow

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #50 on: May 06, 2009, 06:29:54 AM »
  Right on Teamnelson, plenty of bumper stickers to read on some Priuses..most of them dead wrong..but still humorus.

  Guys;
  I do think the Smart car is a bit small to be at all practical..more of a "fad" thing..like pet rocks and Priuses. One thing we should think of, whether for our own good or the good of our economy...fuel prices are going to rise. Not by regular market pressure, but by an administration that wants to punish.
  When it goes up; and it will; don't be surprised.
  We hear all kinds of claims for fuel economy, from all kinds of drivers. Unless it has a special "long range" tank, a simple way of estimating fuel mileage for any vehicle is by asking ; "How big is the gas tank?"

  Most POVs are designed to go from 375 to 425 highway miles on a tank full, depending upon driving conditions & habits.
 
  My 4 cyl, 5 speed Ranger has a 15 gal tank. Multiplying 15 X 28 mpg, gives me 420 miles..about accurate..

My Toyota Yaris has an 11.1 gal tank. Multiply 11.1 X 38.3mpg gets 425.13  miles, I actually get a bit better than that, but that's driving habits.

   In any case, gas will be going up. It has started by itself through inflation  http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Oil-prices-jump-to-new-high-apf-15149868.html?.v=10
   ...but wait till the Marxists in DC start in getting revenge.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #51 on: May 06, 2009, 06:43:19 AM »
What the libs in big cities don't realise, we are a continental country.  We travel with our vehicles a lot more than they do.  Europe and big cities here offer subways, trains, buses, and taxis to move people.  If you live in a small city, town or country, you need a vehicle.  If you have a family or haul things, you need a big vehicle or truck.  We must have choices.  Small is not always better. 

Offline mechanic

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #52 on: May 06, 2009, 10:54:28 AM »
My contemporaries in the auto industry tell me that so far Toyota has been covering failed batteries in theiir hybrids, even when they are technically out of warranty.  They don't want the consumer to know what those would cost.............

I'm also wondering how many EMT's and emergency personnel know that there are certain places where they might apply the jaws of life and cause a fire from the batteries.  Our local folks did not know until I brought it up recently at a meeting at our technical college.

There are many surprises in store with the new generation of autos.............

If you think fuel is high, just wait until you have to pay $3000.00 for batteries after 4 or 5 years......
Molon Labe, (King Leonidas of the Spartan Army)

Offline ironglow

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2009, 04:26:01 PM »
  Dixiedude;
  The libs do know that we drive more than they do...and pay more, because we aren't travelling at taxpayer's expense.
  ..But you know what ? ..THEY DON'T CARE..!
  Mechanic; I heard they are $5,000..and start afire easily for various reasons.
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Dixie Dude

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2009, 10:59:21 AM »
Sometimes I don't understand why the government has regulations they way they do.  I read that you can make 7 more gallons of diesel out of a barrel of oil than gasoline.  This translates to about 20-25% more fuel from the same available source thus less imports.  Now the Germans have perfected diesels in cars.  They have cars getting from 30-70 mpg depending on size of vehicle.  My former supervisors wife had a VW beetle diesel and got 50 mpg.  No batteries to wear out, no extra gizmos.  Why haven't we gone diesel with most of our vehicles.  I work for a natural gas company and we could also use compressed natural gas in vehicles (CNG).  A dedicated vehicle would cost the same as a gasoline vehicle.  Compressed tanks cost more, but CNG doesn't require a catalytic converter, so the costs offset.  Oil companies do not want to install the compressors at their service stations to sell the CNG.  You could also install one at your home.  Honda has a CNG car that you can install a small compressor in your garage to fill overnight, but a quick fill must be done at a station with a larger compressor. 

Offline ironglow

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2009, 11:29:09 AM »
 What powers the compressors and how much fuel do they use ?
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline teamnelson

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2009, 11:31:03 AM »
DD, good questions. Saw on TV this morning there's a critter that eats wood and poops glucose, which they're studying to make a enzyme process that will turn wood into ethanol. And it doesn't take much to make a normal car run ethanol, or so I've heard. Also what about bio-diesel? If you've got a car that can get 50mpg, and you run it on renewable bio-diesel, why drill or pump? Save the petro-products for artificial hearts, etc. and lets drive on yard trimmings and bug poop.

I think the answer to the question why aren't we doing that has something to do with the banks, big oil, Area 51 and the Kennedys.
held fast

Offline Swampman

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #57 on: May 14, 2009, 12:15:05 PM »
I really really like the Smart Car, but the mileage is way less than my Toyota Yaris, and the Yaris is cheaper & has a lot more room.  I also like my Toyota Echo, my wife has gotten as high as 53 mpg with it.  It cost $10, 500.00 new.

I hate big cars because they keep gas prices high.  If it won't get nearly 40 mpg on average, I won't buy it.

The battery in a Prius will out live the car.  The 1998 batteries are still working just fine.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline mechanic

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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #58 on: May 14, 2009, 12:33:58 PM »
The battery in a Prius will out live the car.  The 1998 batteries are still working just fine.
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As of the last notification I had rec'd, Toyota has replaced or repaired over 11,000 of the batteries in the Prius.  As long as they continue to do that, it's great for the owner.
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Re: Smart Car: You're joking, right?
« Reply #59 on: May 14, 2009, 12:40:36 PM »
Probably defective batteries.  They last a long time.  The Prius is so over priced, I don't think I'd buy one.  I want a $13,000.00 hybrid.  That ain't gonna happen.

I like the new Honda Insight, but they are too expensive.

http://automobiles.honda.com/insight-hybrid/
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~