Author Topic: Veteran Wildlife Officer Kills 76 Year Old Turkey Hunter on His Own Land (Read 8620 times)

gstewart44 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 15, 2009, 03:14:07 AM »

I have one experience with a less than cordial CO when hunting on pubic lands in central FL. About 20 years ago a buddy and me checked in at a very large Wildlife Management area (WMA).

We asked the CO when we checked in if we could back track from the checkin station about 3/4 of a mile in order to avoid a 3 mile hike through and around a swamp - trying to get to a nice hardwood oak hammock. The CO said yes. We gave them our names and license #s at checkin and turned around and went back down the dirt road (still on the WMA).

We hunted all day and at dusk started walking out - when we reached the main dirt road to the checkin station we were blinded by three spotlights with the 3 men screaming "drop your weapons and keep your hands in the air!!!"

We complied and one of the men came forward.....it was the CO from the morning....had his 357 drawn and finger on the trigger, his two underlings had Remington 12 g trained on us.

When I protested and asked why he was doing this he said we were guilty of armed trespass. When I reminded him that he checked us in and said we could bypass the swamp he replied "anyone can go where they want but if you do not enter at the checkin station then you have illegally entered the WMA."

Again I told him we checked in at the station, told him of our intentions and he had still said we could. He replied " when you went back down the dirt road you left the WMA" (even though we are still well within the boundaries of the WMA)
I said I thought he was purposely setting us up he said we could tell it to the judge then wrote us citations for $170.

I ceased hunting on Florida public lands since that event 20 years ago. I have many private tracts that need feral hog removal and also our big lease up in Georgia where the COs are very friendly and helpful.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #31 on:** April 15, 2009, 04:59:03 AM »

Quote from: Bornsouthern34 on April 14, 2009, 05:16:39 PM

"The problem I see is, conservation officers some times take things to far."

Do they take things too far or do we get upset because they do not allow bending of the rules? If you knew you were doing 3 MPH over the speed limit and the cop wrote you a ticket, I bet you would be pissed and so would I. However, would we assume the cop was trying to make a name for himself or just doing his job?

How serious are we about doing our own jobs correctly or should we allow bending of the rules?

No I am not talking about bending the rules what so ever. I am talking about the guy that will check your licence every day for 7 days in a row and know he saw you the previous 6 days. The other problem I have is, leaving the discretion up to the officers or how they interpret laws.

I understand doing your job, but there are guys that take it a step over. I always make sure I do it by the book when I am out there.

JimFromTN · « **Reply #32 on:** April 15, 2009, 05:11:09 AM »

Quote from: TeamNelson on April 13, 2009, 09:50:20 AM

President Bush has been demonized for authorizing the collection of information on suspected terrorists operating in our country, while Game Wardens are in many places authorized to enter & search private property without a warrant. Evidently counter-poaching is much more vital to our nation than counter-terrorism.

It is to me. Game wardens can't tap your phones, torture you, or put you in jail indefinately without a charge or trial. Just becuase its your land does not make the wild game on that land yours to do with as you please. There are very good reasons for game laws and if anything, there are not enough game wardens to enforce them.

If the story is at all true, then the old man commited suicide by stupidity and should be added to the Darwin awards. Walk up to a cop or game warden on your own property while you are holding a gun and threaten to kill them if they don't get off your property and see what happens. If that does not get them off your property, raise your gun and point it at them.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #33 on:** April 15, 2009, 05:20:02 AM »

Quote from: gstewart44 on April 15, 2009, 03:14:07 AM

I have one experience with a less than cordial CO when hunting on pubic lands in central FL. About 20 years ago a buddy and me checked in at a very large Wildlife Management area (WMA).

We asked the CO when we checked in if we could back track from the checkin station about 3/4 of a mile in order to avoid a 3 mile hike through and around a swamp - trying to get to a nice hardwood oak hammock. The CO said yes. We gave them our names and license #s at checkin and turned around and went back down the dirt road (still on the WMA).

We hunted all day and at dusk started walking out - when we reached the main dirt road to the checkin station we were blinded by three spotlights with the 3 men screaming "drop your weapons and keep your hands in the air!!!"

We complied and one of the men came forward.....it was the CO from the morning....had his 357 drawn and finger on the trigger, his two underlings had Remington 12 g trained on us.

When I protested and asked why he was doing this he said we were guilty of armed trespass. When I reminded him that he checked us in and said we could bypass the swamp he replied "anyone can go where they want but if you do not enter at the checkin station then you have illegally entered the WMA."

Again I told him we checked in at the station, told him of our intentions and he had still said we could. He replied " when you went back down the dirt road you left the WMA" (even though we are still well within the boundaries of the WMA)
I said I thought he was purposely setting us up he said we could tell it to the judge then wrote us citations for $170.

I ceased hunting on Florida public lands since that event 20 years ago. I have many private tracts that need feral hog removal and also our big lease up in Georgia where the COs are very friendly and helpful.

Curious, did you get any help from the judge?

mirage1988 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 15, 2009, 05:23:51 AM »

Questor-
Here is the article about the "fishy" rulers. You might want to check the one in your boat.

http://www.startribune.com/sports/outdoors/19033634.html?location_refer=Sports

rex6666 · « **Reply #35 on:** April 15, 2009, 05:34:03 AM »

I don't know about all states, but in most the GW has the power to search
your house, freezer,under your bed or any where else he wants. Seems that some
here are confusing the GW with Police or county sherrif which do need a warrant
as far as i know in OK. and TX they don't even need probable cause.
I have had to pay fines for game laws that i ignorantly broke, my fault i paid.
I have never had an Officer enforce a law that wasn't broken, yea some seem to
enjoy it more than others, but i have found that if i don't break the laws i
can stand and smile while he searches. Some folks get the idea that the game on their land belongs to them, and they can use it any way they want. The game does
not belong to the land owner, he has to obey the law while on his own land.

mirage1988 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 15, 2009, 05:45:10 AM »

What really irks me are the changes every year to the game laws and limits. What was legal last year, might not be this year. Daily and posession limits keep changing. You can smile as they empty your freezer until they find out you have one too many limits of sunfish because they changed the limit over the winter. Who is smiling now Rex?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #37 on:** April 15, 2009, 07:09:48 AM »

he needs probable cause , but not a warrant here . He can't stop people to serch a car unless they have shown a cause .

Cement Man · « **Reply #38 on:** April 15, 2009, 07:40:37 AM »

Quote from: mirage1988 on April 15, 2009, 05:45:10 AM

What really irks me are the changes every year to the game laws and limits. What was legal last year, might not be this year. Daily and posession limits keep changing. You can smile as they empty your freezer until they find out you have one too many limits of sunfish because they changed the limit over the winter. Who is smiling now Rex?

Yes, but fish and game management practices require that limits be set according to the conditions and populations that are continually changing. I find fish and game laws to be complex and requiring a lot of tedious reading so I know what I need to do to stay legal - but I realize that managing wild species is susceptible to lots of factors and requires changing rules.

I think everybody agrees that some game wardens are Barney Fifes, like in any occupation. But, I don't think that the majority of fish and game law changes are motivated by trying to screw or trick the outdoorsman.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #39 on:** April 15, 2009, 07:51:11 AM »

Quote

I think everybody agrees that some game wardens are Barney Fifes

Cement Man you're dating yourself,

But I agree with that statement.

My problem is the continuous increase in License and fees, it will soon put the averageguy and his children out of the hunt and fish buisness I fear! Here you have to have a fishing license,and a salt water stamp, to fish coastal Texas. The one I get costs $48 bucks for a year.

Still want to hear more details of this tradgedy, before I make a statement about this killing.

Cement Man · « **Reply #40 on:** April 15, 2009, 09:22:24 AM »

Quote from: Oldshooter on April 15, 2009, 07:51:11 AM

Still want to hear more details of this tradgedy, before I make a statement about this killing.

Yes, I agree - we don't have first hand facts on what occurred, so I also hate to speculate. I feel really bad for that hunter's family. I noticed when searching for details that his younger sister (62 years old) had died just 5 days before he did. So, he and their family were most likely grieving at the time of this incident. I also understand that he had a substantial loss of hearing, which of course could contribute to miscommunications between him and a game warden. Hopefully the SBI investigation will find the real truth, whatever it is.

Bornsouthern34 · « **Reply #41 on:** April 15, 2009, 09:53:36 AM »

Speculation is a wonderful thing!

gstewart44 · « **Reply #42 on:** April 15, 2009, 04:29:56 PM »

Quote from: Oldshooter on April 15, 2009, 05:20:02 AM

Quote from: gstewart44 on April 15, 2009, 03:14:07 AM
I have one experience with a less than cordial CO when hunting on pubic lands in central FL. About 20 years ago a buddy and me checked in at a very large Wildlife Management area (WMA).

We asked the CO when we checked in if we could back track from the checkin station about 3/4 of a mile in order to avoid a 3 mile hike through and around a swamp - trying to get to a nice hardwood oak hammock. The CO said yes. We gave them our names and license #s at checkin and turned around and went back down the dirt road (still on the WMA).

We hunted all day and at dusk started walking out - when we reached the main dirt road to the checkin station we were blinded by three spotlights with the 3 men screaming "drop your weapons and keep your hands in the air!!!"

We complied and one of the men came forward.....it was the CO from the morning....had his 357 drawn and finger on the trigger, his two underlings had Remington 12 g trained on us.

When I protested and asked why he was doing this he said we were guilty of armed trespass. When I reminded him that he checked us in and said we could bypass the swamp he replied "anyone can go where they want but if you do not enter at the checkin station then you have illegally entered the WMA."

Again I told him we checked in at the station, told him of our intentions and he had still said we could. He replied " when you went back down the dirt road you left the WMA" (even though we are still well within the boundaries of the WMA)
I said I thought he was purposely setting us up he said we could tell it to the judge then wrote us citations for $170.

I ceased hunting on Florida public lands since that event 20 years ago. I have many private tracts that need feral hog removal and also our big lease up in Georgia where the COs are very friendly and helpful.
Curious, did you get any help from the judge?

At the time I calculated what it would cost to take off work for the day, drive the 3 hour round trip and it was a lot cheaper to pay the da@* fine. One of those unpleasant pills of life that I chose to swallow. One footnote though - that same weekend one of the cronies working under the head Warden tried to stop me as I was getting into my truck and confiscate my rifle. I was out at the beginning of the trip working a swamp for some big hogs and using a standard military SMLE. this goofball tried to tell me I had an illegal rifle as it had the stock 10 round magazine in place.

In Florida only semiautos are restricted to 5 rounds or less. I tried to tell the guy that if the SMLE was illegal then the Winchester 94 that he had in his truck was illegal as well as it holds 6-7 rounds and a Winchester 92 in 44 mag would be also because you can stuff 10 rounds in that tube. Luckily I turned my back on the guy and walked to the truck, pulled the magazine and bolt on the SMLE then grabbed the Florida Hunting Regulations out of the glovebox. I opened to the page regarding semiautos and showed him. He said he still didn't think the SMLE was legal but he was going to let me go.

I wrote a letter to the Fish and Game commission about this experience. I heard from some of my buddies that those two officers were no longer at this WMA the next month. I don't know if the letter did any good but I like to think so.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #43 on:** April 15, 2009, 04:38:16 PM »

Well sometimes you gotta just cut your losses.

beerbelly · « **Reply #44 on:** April 16, 2009, 01:28:51 AM »

That old man should not have told the GW he was going to kill him. (If he did remember he is dead we are only hearing the GW's story) He should have just pulled the trigger!
Beerbelly

Oldshooter · « **Reply #45 on:** April 16, 2009, 01:50:47 AM »

Yep thats the plus of a two man, no witness, gunfight, the one that walks away is the one that has the story that is heard!

gypsyman · « **Reply #46 on:** April 16, 2009, 03:39:39 AM »

Beerbelly/Oldshooter, after reading the posts on this, that is exactly the same thing I was thinking. One man,one story. Cover thine own a**! gypsyman

Bornsouthern34 · « **Reply #47 on:** April 16, 2009, 04:13:33 PM »

Opening day of dove season on a very large corn field with over 100 shooters, we got invaded by the DNR/CO's/Rangers or whatever you want to call them. Anyway, they checked every single hunter to make sure we had licenses but not a single person for their limit. Seems, just one week before the season, the limit changed from 12 to 15 and DNR did not get the information out in time. They said it was their 5th field they had checked that day. I talked to the guy for over 20 minutes with no issues. Funny how one bad apple can ruin the bunch and rumors spread faster than California wildfires.

1marty · « **Reply #48 on:** April 16, 2009, 04:56:28 PM »

you'd think when he was threatened he would have backed off and called for other officers to assist him. Why was it so vital he arrest this old guy right then and there.

jhm · « **Reply #49 on:** April 17, 2009, 03:26:18 AM »

I am sure there are thousands of good game wardens, HOWEVER I do know of and was involved in a game warden giving out the so called name of who reported a illigal deer kill, the parties who shot the deer are some of the RICH than most in the area. My son and son in law watched the parties involved in the shooting, they came to me and reported it, game and fish were called warden came out to my property and he took the report, while there he asked if their was ever any poaching on my place by any others I responded NO but he was welcome to come out anytime to watch the area at night to see if he could locate anyone, I then handed him MY PERSONAL CARD containing my phone #s and told him call me anytime you want to come out, he then went to the parties who shot the deer and showed them my card and said here is the man who reported it, not so my son in law a LEO was the one that reported it, that evening my son gets a call from the parties who shot the deer complaining that I called them in, even said they knew it was so because the game warden had shown them MY CARD, I went to the head of enforcement in Little Rock and turned it all in and they said they would look into it, the man still has his job and they said that their wasnt any physical proof of it happening, ( but they could never explain how the poachers knew abt my PERSONEL CARD ) So I have a lot less respect for game wardens now!!! After all our game rules has a stop poaching hotline phone # and in bold print it says any info is treated with confidentiality. AKA BS!! Jim

Dee · « **Reply #50 on:** April 17, 2009, 07:07:35 AM »

Quote from: Oldshooter on April 13, 2009, 01:54:17 PM

From all that I know in Texas, they can come in your house and look in the freezer! Now that has never happened to me but its gonna get ugly if it does.

Oldshooter in Texas THEY MAY NOT come into your house and look in your freezer without a search warrant. There are many myths out there concerning game laws, and that is but one. Search and seizure laws are FEDERAL, and pertain to EVERYONE, in EVERY STATE. Inculding Game Wardens. I have had a couple of runins with a couple of Game Wardens whom were friends, coming into the city to search suspected residences without warrants. They tried to bluster their way in, and when we (the police) were called, they were advised to leave, and obtain a warrant. They didn't like it, but they left. Neither EVER went and obtained the warrant. Their evidence SUCKED!
Only if the Warden is in "hot pursuit" of the suspect and he runs into his house, can he be followed without a warrant. That is the actual law concerning Search and Seizure, and as I said, it is a FEDERAL LAW protecting your rights.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #51 on:** April 17, 2009, 07:16:58 AM »

Good , I stand corrected! thanks

Cement Man · « **Reply #52 on:** April 17, 2009, 08:41:26 AM »

Quote from: Dee on April 17, 2009, 07:07:35 AM

Quote from: Oldshooter on April 13, 2009, 01:54:17 PM
From all that I know in Texas, they can come in your house and look in the freezer! Now that has never happened to me but its gonna get ugly if it does.

Oldshooter in Texas THEY MAY NOT come into your house and look in your freezer without a search warrant. There are many myths out there concerning game laws, and that is but one. Search and seizure laws are FEDERAL, and pertain to EVERYONE, in EVERY STATE. Inculding Game Wardens. I have had a couple of runins with a couple of Game Wardens whom were friends, coming into the city to search suspected residences without warrants. They tried to bluster their way in, and when we (the police) were called, they were advised to leave, and obtain a warrant. They didn't like it, but they left. Neither EVER went and obtained the warrant. Their evidence SUCKED!
Only if the Warden is in "hot pursuit" of the suspect and he runs into his house, can he be followed without a warrant. That is the actual law concerning Search and Seizure, and as I said, it is a FEDERAL LAW protecting your rights.

Maybe othrs won't find this as funny as I do, but anyway it is TRUE.

As a licensed taxidermist, one of my best friends does have to avail his business freezers to the local game wardens - whenever they inspect - unannounced. (Different laws apply to businesses.) My friend had a very enthusiastic young warden who inspected him quite often. All game carcasses and parts must be properly tagged and backed up by matching licenses (numbers, etc). One of the locals had a big walleye to be mounted from a local bar down the road - because my friend was not at his shop, it was put into the bar cooler. The name of the bar was "The Bald Eagle". The bar owner wrote the bar name on the trash bag with a magic marker and it ended up in my buddie's freezer in that bag. All documentation was correct and legal, but the fish got left in that bag.
The game warden came in and just about wet his pants when he inspected the cooler and saw that bag that said "Bald Eagle" on it. My friend thought he was going to call in an air strike and SWAT. We still laugh about that one.

slim rem 7 · « **Reply #53 on:** April 17, 2009, 08:42:33 AM »

sounds to me ,to be a tragedy of aged old school thinking,versus an officer
perhaps a bit affraid and pushed past good judgement..not being an wildlife officer here in carolina i wouldn t know if this was how this officer was taught to handle
this type situation..i used to know ted brothers who was over a three county area.. i like to think ted would have handled it with different results..
but we still don t know if the victim was perhaps pursueing the officer with a shotgun..if thats the case ,,its just a sad situation.. being way past my prime mentally an physically i personally know,,the quick judgement decisions can suffer with age..slim

beerbelly · « **Reply #54 on:** April 17, 2009, 09:25:34 AM »

If he were chaseing the GW with a shotgun, I don't think he would be the one that is dead.
Beerbelly

Arier Blut · « **Reply #55 on:** April 17, 2009, 12:36:38 PM »

I can back Dee up on his statement I am a Federal LEO. There may or may not be local laws concerning GW in your particular state, however constitutional law trumps state law. In other words plain sight, probable cause or a warrant must exist for legal search and seizures. Since GW are leo they also have to conform to the same laws your local, state and federal officers conform to.

Well they are supposed to anyways, during my stint with local law enforcement I saw a whole lot of infringement upon the 14th. It boils down to your word against theirs. Often their word is stronger. Generally common folks don't have the funds necessary to fight an issue at the federal level. In turn most constitutional cases are inmates. It's sad because descent people should be sheltered from illegality before those who dabble in it all the time.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #56 on:** April 17, 2009, 01:11:38 PM »

Quote

It's sad because descent people should be sheltered from illegality before those who dabble in it all the time.

You said a mouth full!

Dee · « **Reply #57 on:** April 17, 2009, 03:28:14 PM »

Quote from: rex6666 on April 15, 2009, 05:34:03 AM

I don't know about all states, but in most the GW has the power to search
your house, freezer,under your bed or any where else he wants. Seems that some
here are confusing the GW with Police or county sherrif which do need a warrant
as far as i know in OK. and TX they don't even need probable cause.
I have had to pay fines for game laws that i ignorantly broke, my fault i paid.
I have never had an Officer enforce a law that wasn't broken, yea some seem to
enjoy it more than others, but i have found that if i don't break the laws i
can stand and smile while he searches. Some folks get the idea that the game on their land belongs to them, and they can use it any way they want. The game does
not belong to the land owner, he has to obey the law while on his own land.

Basically everything you said here rex6666 is INCORRECT. As I have said, and as Arier Blut said. Game Wardens are Law Enforcement officers. State laws CANNOT, supersede FEDERAL LAW. Federal search and seizure laws are for EVERYONE, and ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES. They MUST meet the criteria both Arier Blut and I stated. I worked under these rules for 20 years. They are not state wide, they are NATION WIDE in regards to Search and Seizure laws.

AND! In most states there are instances where the land owner may trump state game laws in instances such as over-stocked fishing water, to thinning predators that are protected when they are killing stock, of deer when they are damaging crops.

ncsurveyor · « **Reply #58 on:** April 17, 2009, 03:44:47 PM »

I contacted my "source" in Wilkes County.

The WRC has not released any info. Everyone is tightlipped (certainly moreso than the Obama administration with CIA memos).

The consensus, based on past practice, is that the WRO would not have been on private property UNLESS he was made aware that a violation of game laws was in progress or would occur.

Quote from: Dee on April 17, 2009, 03:28:14 PM

AND! In most states there are instances where the land owner may trump state game laws in instances such as over-stocked fishing water, to thinning predators that are protected when they are killing stock, of deer when they are damaging crops.

True statement. You should see what I get to do to beavers in the creek. But I still need to get a permit. According to the law.

Mxpe78a · « **Reply #59 on:** April 17, 2009, 04:08:59 PM »

Quote from the Code of Virginia, Other states may vary

§ 29.1-208. Searches and seizures.

All conservation police officers are vested with the authority to search any person arrested as provided in § 29.1-205 together with any box, can, package, barrel or other container, hunting bag, coat, suit, trunk, grip, satchel or fish basket carried by, in the possession of, or belonging to such person. Conservation police officers shall also have the authority, immediately subsequent to such arrest, to enter and search any refrigerator, building, vehicle, or other place in which the officer making the search has reasonable ground to believe that the person arrested has concealed or placed any wild bird, wild animal or fish, which will furnish evidence of a violation of the hunting, trapping and inland fish laws. Such a search may be made without a warrant, except that a dwelling may not be searched without a warrant. Should any container as described in this section reveal any wild bird, wild animal or fish, or any part thereof, which has been illegally taken, possessed, sold, purchased or transported, the conservation police officer shall seize and hold as evidence the container, together with such wild bird, wild animal or fish, and any unlawful gun, net, or other device of any kind for taking wild birds, wild animals or fish which he may find.

(Code 1950, § 29-33; 1987, c. 488; 2007, c. 87.)