Author Topic: upgrading to a better inline.  (Read 2290 times)

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Offline upnorth

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« on: September 09, 2003, 12:08:12 PM »
Ok boys and girls, I need your help. After this season, I'm considering upgrading to a better inline. I currently have a traditions e-bolt, and it shoots fine, but I'm considering getting into m/l shoots at the range and am looking for better accuracy. I would appreciate any and all input on the gun of your choice, or if you had a bad experience, I would appreciate hearing about that too. I am considering upper-end traditions, knight or t/c. Any and all input is appreciated.

Thanks!
Upnorth.
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Offline Triple Se7en

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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2003, 01:51:58 PM »
Upnorth

Scroll down to Muzzleloading Rifles & Information"

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2d.rifles.htm

Ill give you two of my choices around $270
Winchester Apex
Knight Wolverine II 26"

Then two choices around $340
Thompson Center Omega
Austin & Halleck 320

I own two Traditions side-hammers that I'm fond of but none of their inlines impress me in that $270-$340 price range... including the new Evolution Premier.  Even with the muzzlebrake, it still kicks like a mule & delivers too much blowback to the scope. Just my opinion.
............. Keep Your Powder Dry ...................

Offline upnorth

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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2003, 05:58:09 AM »
thanks triple7, lots of good info there. I also ordered randy's video as well to get further info. I'm still looking for anyones personal experience. what you like or dislike about your particular m/l.
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Offline catman

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« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2003, 06:56:04 AM »
i've got the T/C Omega .50 and it's a tack driver with 87 gr of T-7 powder and 240 gr hornady mag XTP's, yes it took this much T-7 to make mine work perfect. 3/4" groups at 75 yards and that's 1" high, this is as far as i can get a shot here in the OZARK hills. i put a 4X fixed Burris scope on also. tried the power-belts in 245 and 295 and just couldn't get them to work for me. :D
odds are with the prepared.....

Offline Omega

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« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2003, 09:13:28 AM »
Love my Omegas and Encores. Here is a target I shot a couple of weeks back. http://www.theoutdoorquest.com/images/Target1.jpg
Rich
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Offline catman

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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2003, 09:20:30 AM »
that group will hunt all day long
odds are with the prepared.....

Offline Omega

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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2003, 09:39:06 AM »
Thank you, my thoughts exactly! Just returned from Northern Quebec where 3 caribou ran a foul of the same load from that gun. Ranges: 62, 90 and 142 yards - all were ranged, and all were shoot throughs with total devastation in the chest cavity.
Rich
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Offline upnorth

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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2003, 10:43:11 AM »
Hey omega. Nice to have another westener here. I talked to a fella at the range and he echoed your sentiments on the omegas. Not being overly familiar  with t/c, what are the differences between the break open design, and the swing action design other than price and barrel interchangeability?
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Offline Omega

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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2003, 12:42:11 PM »
The two main diffences are the 28" barrel on the Omega as compared to the 26" on the Encore. You get a little better burn on the bigger loads with the longer barrel. That and the rigidity that comes from the one piece stock, which can mean better accuracy. It really is a coin toss between the guns I have a couple of both in .50's and they all shoot great. I really like the barrels for the Encore but if I was just shopping for a first rate ML I'd go with the Omega.
Rich
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Offline daddywpb

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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2003, 11:10:37 PM »
The Omega is great! Accurate and easy to clean. I've had a couple function problems with CVA inlines. They were not able to resolve them, and I ended up returning the rifle and getting the Omega. The Winchester Apex also looks nice, and I like the looks and feel of the Austin & Hallecks too. Maybe someday....

Offline upnorth

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omegas
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2003, 12:14:14 PM »
since you own an omega daddywpb, click on the link triple7 sent me in the second post, and read the review that randy wakeman did on the omega. Is he on the mark about the problems?
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Offline catman

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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2003, 12:46:13 PM »
whether it's a cady, ford or chevy top of the line there is ALWAYS going to be some CO. that has what the other doesn't have in performance or a gagit. i've got the omega and that's what i have, i have held better gun stocks in pawn shops and i have them on better custom center fire rifles by far, the omega works for me fine for a $300 ML for a season that's going to last for 5 days and not a 33 day as gun season. it is very simple.
keep it simple for me and the omega ML is simple, there is enough mess with the old ML of old, this one is for me and my needs.

i'm glad we have people like Randy, it makes life simple and understanding for us to make a logical choice before we think we waste our $$$$. my .02
odds are with the prepared.....

Offline River runner

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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2003, 01:57:00 PM »
If ya have a TC Contender, or Encore you're allready halfway there, contact Bulberry and see about a muzzle loader barrel for it. I've got the Gonic Arms barrel, but the company is iffy at best, and I can't recommend them. The Bulberry is basically the same as my Gonic, but you'll go thru a lot less hassle, and they guarantee moa at 200 yards. RR:D

Offline simonkenton

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« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2003, 02:56:17 AM »
Do you feel like taking a walk on the wild side? I mean, do you want to try crossing the railroad tracks?
Yes, I am talking about shooting smokeless.
I bought a Savage 2 months ago. I like this rifle a lot.
The rifle is very accurate. I am getting 1 and 1/4 inch groups at 100, this is with the 250 xtp. It is easy to load the sabots, it does have the QLA type muzzle. Loading the primers could not be easier, they slip into the front of the bolt, no disc or capping tool needed. Even with a scope on the rifle they are easy to load, and easy to unload. Half the time the used primer pops right out of the bolt when you open the bolt.
Another big advantage is the rifle has a closed bolt. A lot of these in lines the bolt and primer are exposed to brush and debris. Some of the hunting we do in the southeast in this brush, you might draw down on a buck and find that a twig has gotten into your action, your gun won't fire. No way with the Savage. Even better, with the Savage your safety locks the bolt closed.
I live in the country and can shoot right off my porch. A week ago I took one shot at my deer silhouette, and put the gun back in the closet without cleaning. That is one big advantage over the other guns, you don't have to clean it.
With the smokeless powder, you can get longer range than with the other muzleloaders. I have just gotten the new SST. Depending on how much thumping your shoulder can take,  it would be easy to develop a 200 yard load with the SST, and you could reasonably take this slug out to 250. [When I order my stock I will get a big heavy varmint stock, plus a big recoil pad. With this, I can push the SST up to 3100, 3300 foot pounds and see what it will do at 250 yards. With the dinky lightweight plastic stock I have now, I keep it under 3000 foot pounds]
On the down side, I dislike the plastic stock. However, being a bolt action from a major manufacturer, you can buy an aftermarket stock from Boyds or Richards Microfit. I am going to get one this winter, you can get a beautiful maple or walnut stock, made to your exact lenght of pull, your exact recoil pad etc, for around $100. Then you have to do a little sanding, put linseed oil on it etc.
Also, the Savage is finicky. You have got to go to the Savage web sites and find out which loads will shoot. If you just grab the first box of .50 sabots at the gun store, they will probably not work. In other words the XTP at 240 grains with the green sabot, not good. The XTP at 250 grains, black sabot,  quite good. With a little due diligence you can get the right sabot and powder to begin with, and save yourself a lot of trouble.
Another problem, they are finicky about heat. If you are shooting in 80 degree weather, you have to wait 15 minutes for the barrel to cool between shots. If you don't wait, you will not get accurate groups. In 40 degree weather, little or no waiting.
This is no big deal for hunting, the whole ball game is the first shot, which is deadly accurate even in warm weather. But at the range it is, I admit, a hassle. I tried cooling the barrel with ice cubes between shots, that didn't work either.
Every inline has some drawbacks, and as you know there is a bewildering variety of top quality guns out there.  The Savage is a rugged, accurate and reliable hunting rifle. I got a local gun shop to order mine and got it for $395 plus tax, a very good price.
I did a lot of research, and if I hadn't got the Savage I would have gotten the Omega or the A&H.
Aim small don't miss.

Offline upnorth

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« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2003, 07:46:25 AM »
thanks simon. I did do my research on the savage, and decided aginst it. Our dnr is considering not allowing the savage during the m/l season, and I'm afraid I have to agree with them. No disrespect to your choice of the savage, but It's kinda like having a ruger #1, or a t/c centrefire rifle. I have narrowed my choice to a knight disc elite, t/c 209/50, or an a+h. have been able to see first hand on the range about the first 2, but haven't found any one with an a+h. But thanks for the input.Please keep it coming.
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Offline simonkenton

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« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2003, 08:16:13 AM »
Upnorth, I agree with your Game and Fish Dept. The  Savage should not be allowed on a primitive weapons hunt.
But, are they saying that an Omega, with a 9 power scope and its 209 primer, is a primitive weapon? Hmm.
I hope you get a chance to look at the A&H. The wood on the stock is just beautiful. They have adjustable, match grade triggers, you can remove the bolt using no tools. Very accurate, what a rifle.
Aim small don't miss.

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2003, 09:53:59 AM »
Quote from: Omega
The two main diffences are the 28" barrel on the Omega as compared to the 26" on the Encore. You get a little better burn on the bigger loads with the longer barrel. That and the rigidity that comes from the one piece stock, which can mean better accuracy. It really is a coin toss between the guns I have a couple of both in .50's and they all shoot great. I really like the barrels for the Encore but if I was just shopping for a first rate ML I'd go with the Omega.
Rich


Hi Rich,

Here's a little trivia for you-- the "28 inch" Omega barrel and the "26 inch" Encore barrels are identical in length. Just stick a tape measure down the muzzle to breech plug on both, and see for yourself.

The Omega I bought was a fine shooter. The main variable on Omegas is the trigger-- some are really heavy, some folks luck out with light, crisp triggers out of the box. There are no strong negatives with an Omega-- I'd just like a bit longer stock (a Kick-Eez pad would do that), and wish Thompson would offer solid synthetic stocks on both the Encore and Omega.

Offline upnorth

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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2003, 02:27:40 PM »
hi randy. I ordered your second video and it was fantastic. Thanks for being honest in an industry where there is more fiction than fact. How do you feel about the omega? a decent rifle? any major negatives? I saw your review of the t/c and the knight. how easy is the knight's bolt to take apart? I'd really value any input you may have.

upnorth
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Offline Omega

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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2003, 05:48:28 PM »
Quote from: RandyWakeman
Quote from: Omega

Hi Rich,

Here's a little trivia for you-- the "28 inch" Omega barrel and the "26 inch" Encore barrels are identical in length. Just stick a tape measure down the muzzle to breech plug on both, and see for yourself.

The Omega I bought was a fine shooter. The main variable on Omegas is the trigger-- some are really heavy, some folks luck out with light, crisp triggers out of the box. There are no strong negatives with an Omega-- I'd just like a bit longer stock (a Kick-Eez pad would do that), and wish Thompson would offer solid synthetic stocks on both the Encore and Omega.

Hey Randy,
Just took your advice and measured the internal barrel length to the plug. The Encore 209x50 listed as a 26" barrel is 25" inside. The 28" Omega barrels are 26 3/4".  Must be a change since yours Randy.  I knew there was a difference in the two as the Encore ramrod isn't long enough to clean the Omega even with the handle extension on.  As far as the triggers go I don't have as much experience as others with the Omega but my three all have very nice triggers. I like a light, crisp release and that is what I got. I have two synthetic stocks and one laminate stock. The laminate unit is definitely heavier than the synthetic one.
Rich
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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2003, 06:38:11 PM »
They are both 25-1/2" on my tape. You can also subtract the 1-1/2" QLA section that pushes nothing, giving an max. effective barrel length of 24" for both-- that's all the barrel that can be used.

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2003, 07:14:29 PM »
Quote from: upnorth
How do you feel about the omega? a decent rifle? any major negatives? I saw your review of the t/c and the knight. how easy is the knight's bolt to take apart? I'd really value any input you may have.
upnorth


The Omega is a very competent rifle, far more than just "decent." The tested model was stainless steel / laminate .50 cal, and shot 1-1/4" average groups out of the box with no modifications. No blowback, two recoil lugs, and as easy to maintain as can be imagined. As with the Encore, it is ambidextrous as well. The barrel was floated on my test gun as well. It uses the same bases / sights / breechplug as the Encore.

The Knight Elite has a tapered barrel, and the bolt just unscrews with your fingers.  No iron sights on the Knight Elite, so it is a scope-only gun . . . but also the most accurate muzzleloader I've ever tested. The Knights have adjustable triggers, and Knight will set them anywhere you want within reason (free)- mine is set at 2-1/2 lbs.

I like the Knight's solid synthetic stock better than what Thompson offers, the Omega has a better laminate-- went with walnut on the Encore.

This is an area where personal preference makes the choice-- whatever feels best to you is the one you'll probably do the best with.

Omega could use a little better pad, the trigger is not going to be as good as the Knight. It just boils down to whether you personally prefer a bolt action that seats and extracts primers, a hammer gun, and the type of stock. Knight Elite, Omega, Encore-- all solid choices from companies with great customer service. There is nothing on hooves that could tell the difference between them when properly applied!

Was just in Winnipeg a few days ago, had to overnight on the way back from the caribou hunt. Had a Chinese feast with Cecil and Jackie Epp. If you go to prbullet.com, you see a video clip of the second caribou harvested last week.

Offline daddywpb

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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2003, 11:52:44 PM »
I read the Omega review, and I'm not quite as critical. The stock fits me fine, and the 'mushy' recoil pad works fine for me to. The trigger on mine is crisp and a clean 3# on my scale - guess I lucked out on that one. I agree about the ramrod. I added a handle from CVA and it works fine, but you have to screw the jag on before you can use it to load. I just put a scope on mine for this season. A Nikon Pro Staff 2x7x32 with Leopold QR rings and base. I shot it yesterday, and 5 shot groups with 295 gr Powerbelts and 100 grains of Pyrodex pellets made ragged holes about an inch wide at 50 yards (the longest range I had access to yesterday). In our hunting area, 100 yard shots will be about the farthest - it's pretty dense out there. That's much better than I can do with iron sights. The scope can be removed and replaced and still retain it's zero, and the base is low enough to use the iron sights when the scope is off. I wanted an Encore, but with three kids, the $550 price tag is out of the question. I'm very happy with my Omega - it was outshooting everything else on the range yesterday.

Offline Omega

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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2003, 02:18:16 AM »
Quote from: RandyWakeman
They are both 25-1/2" on my tape. You can also subtract the 1-1/2" QLA section that pushes nothing, giving an max. effective barrel length of 24" for both-- that's all the barrel that can be used.

Not on my tape, even the ramrods are different, 23 5/8" for the Encore and 25 3/8" for the Omega. I think you should check a new one Randy.
Rich
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Offline upnorth

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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2003, 03:30:40 AM »
hope the caribou hunting went well. I've been seeing lots of pictures coming into my camo retail store here in town. thanks for the input on the omega. I've been keeping the omega on the back of my mind, just haven't had a chance to see it on the range. but I didn't think t/c would put out a inferior product that would damage their reputation. So would all the omega owners out there say that the omega is a good shooter, if someone was looking strictly for a m/l ,and didn't want the interchangability of the encore?
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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2003, 05:14:24 AM »
Quote from: upnorth
So would all the omega owners out there say that the omega is a good shooter, if someonw was looking strictly for a m/l ,and didn't want the interchangability of the encore?


I don't think you could get "all" owners of anything on the planet to say the same thing!

Your comments above sum it up well as far as I'm concerned.

Rich,

I guess we can just meet at the border to compare ramrods? If you are telling me that your barrel is longer than mine-- well, hmm, you are probably right. :oops:

There is only one blackpowder inline I've ever tested that has had the barrel length "as stated" - - - the Austin & Halleck 420. Go figure.

Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2003, 10:03:37 AM »
Quote from: upnorth
hi randy. I ordered your second video and it was fantastic. Thanks for being honest in an industry where there is more fiction than fact. upnorth


Thanks for the comments about the video. Would you be surprised that I haven't received any compliments from Remington or Traditions? :eek:

Omega and I discussed barrel lengths extensively-- and we came to agreement on a theory. The theory is that "Bore Butter" is comprised primarily of whatever is not allowed into a hot dog.  :shock:

Offline upnorth

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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2003, 10:39:00 AM »
I am curious though. do you purchase test rifles, or do the manufacturers give you samples to test? In the video, you stated that you wouldn't test smokeless in the savage because it's pretty unique, and might put other weapons in a bad light. Was this at the request of the manufacturers, or your own personal decision?
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Offline RandyWakeman

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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2003, 01:08:19 PM »
Quote from: upnorth
I am curious though. do you purchase test rifles, or do the manufacturers give you samples to test? In the video, you stated that you wouldn't test smokeless in the savage because it's pretty unique, and might put other weapons in a bad light. Was this at the request of the manufacturers, or your own personal decision?


Some were purchased outright, others were consignment items.

Yes, one manufacturer cried that "their guns would not be allowed" on the same video as the Savage. That was CVA (BPI). Amazing that they thought they had a choice in the matter, and that one of their el cheapo guns that could be bought for $150 was a factor in a video that took 3 months of testing, endless hours of editing, and over 4 grand to produce!

There was a time limit, as initial the gun review section alone was over 2 hours after a rough edit-- without even begining on scopes, rangefinders, etc. So, there was just no time to give extended coverage-- and many Savage buyers will give their guns dual-duty use. The playing field was kept as level as possible . . . but, it is with smokeless powder that the Savage reaches its potential, from both a cost per shot stand point, less recoil, and accurate loads exceeding 2300 fps.

This tape ("Secrets of Modern Muzzleloading") serves as a companion to the "21st Century Muzzleloading tape," which has more propellant and general info-- as well as other test guns like the Omega and X-150 Winchester.

Offline upnorth

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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2003, 04:33:47 AM »
anyone else with the good, bad, or ugly on the omega?
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Offline azshooter

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« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2003, 06:37:24 PM »
Better yet you coulf upgrade even higher to a Lyman GPR  :grin: