Optimizing the Model 71 Winchester

[BrushBuster]

Greetings to all from a newbie:
Through the death of a dear friend, I have acquired a Model 71-.348 rifle. When his widow offered me his gun collection which included a number of collectibles, I shouldered this particular rifle and was hooked right from the start. There has been much written about this model as I have learned since I acquired it, and I want to say its all true! Several things come immediately to mind, they are: quality, balance and strength. The rifle had belonged to my friends father and has not been used since the 1950's. Before the father had stopped hunting he laid in 12 boxes of Winchester 200 grain Silvertip ammo. (which assured my continued use). This model (standard) did not include a aperture sight, so I immediately installed the Lymang Tang sight which works well and looks great on it.

I live in the centre of British Columbia, the heart of Moose country and I feel that I have found the ideal close-range Moose hunting rifle. This is also Grizzly country; I don't hunt them but occassionally encounter them, especially when returning to a moose kill.

My research indicates that the 250 grain bullet was the best performer in this rifle and that is what I would like to set up for when I start reloading.  Does anyone have reloading data specifically for the 250 grain bullet? I see that they can be purchased from Barnes, but Canadian restrictions prevent me from ordering so I will keep trying to obtain them. Any information on reloading the .348 would be appreciated.

[Blackhawk44]

Scan web for old Handloader magazine articles.  Most recent 348 article was last issue.  They have had many over the years.

[gunnut69]

Barry Scott
I also bought a 71 a few years back..  I bought it as a project but haven't completed it as yet.  Already I'm hooked.  Smooth and powerful, beautiful worksmanship.  Just thought I'm point out that 1950's vintage Winchester ammo in this caliber is getting very collectable. When looking thru a gunshow I found a few boxes of 348's by Winchester.  They were wrapped in cellophane and were priced at $75(US) per box.  The ammo is still being made although a new batch is only made when supplies are exhausted.  Buy some new ammo and sell that collector stuff..  A note. The 250 grain ammo is what the 348 made it's reputation with but recoil is 'stout' and the steel buttplate is quite unforgiving...

[86er]

 Barry, isn't your gun drilled for a peep sight? By the '50s all 71s were so drilled on the upper left side of the frame. If that is the case, you will find the Lyman 66 peep sight to be an advantage, especially when hunting. I just could not pick up a target fast enough with the tang sight. I have peep sights of various types and manufacturers on some of my Model '86s and consider them to be the best type sight for all around use.

[BrushBuster]

I appreciate the responses fellows.
My response to 86er is that I don't have any drilled and tapped holes on the side of the receiver. The only holes are in the moveable bolt at the rear, and are not tapped? It looks like there may have been a special type of peep sight that as an option could be installed at the time of purchase. The gun Ser.# is 1335 and checks out as production date 1935, which if i'm not mistaken is the first year the Model 71 was made.  I enjoyed installing the Lyman Tang sight, and it only required drilling and tapping one hole in the upper tang. I did make one other change to compensate for the aging factor, that was to install a fibre-optic front bead sight.  Yesterday I got a four-point buck up in the hills near my home. Everything worked perfectly, the shot was in thick bush with a deer that had already spooked. I stopped him momentarily with a grunt, and the bullet went exactly where I aimed! I think I'll stay with what I have, can't imagine any improvements. The only critique I could have is that I don't like to carry the gun with the tang sight in the up position and I have to develop a quick habit of flipping it up as I shoulder the rifle.

Gunnut69, your thread has really got me thinking this whole concept of reloading over.  First of all, because of the number of cartridges that I have in the 200 grain Silvertip, the only need I have of reloading the .348 cartridge would be to acquire a 250 grain Grizzly smucker.  After seeing the effect of the 200 grain Silvertip on a large Mule Deer, I now have no doubt that this is also more than adequate for Moose. Maybe I just can't justify the cost of setting up to start loading.  I also find that when I target shoot, the recoil of the factory loaded .348 is  how shall I say, substantial, but when shooting at game of course I don't give it a thought. If however, I load the 250 grain bullet ahead of about 60 grains of powder and crank out 2300 fps. flinching could result.  What I need is just a couple of boxes of 250 grainers and that would last me a lifetime (Im 62). Perhaps I could offer 4 boxes of this collectible ammo. for two boxes made up to my spec.s with the Barnes 250 grain bullet?  I,m open for suggestions.  Thanks for the info. and advice.

[JOE MACK]

Greetings to all from a newbie:
My research indicates that the 250 grain bullet was the best performer in this rifle and that is what I would like to set up for when I start reloading.  Does anyone have reloading data specifically for the 250 grain bullet? I see that they can be purchased from Barnes, but Canadian restrictions prevent me from ordering so I will keep trying to obtain them. Any information on reloading the .348 would be appreciated.

Barry, I don't know what your import laws for loaded ammunition are but Buffalo Bore makes a good 250gr bonded bullet round. Check with your dealer as to whether or not it can be imported. Good luck, the M71 is a splendid rifle. RKBA!

[dclark]

There are several outfits that make bullets for the .348 in various weights and designs.  Hornady makes a 200 gr. that is fine for deer.  Barnes still makes original designs in 220 and 250 gr.  They work well in mine, but I have a preference for the 250.  Alaska Bullet Works makes a 250 bonded core bullet, but it is pricey.  Hawk makes several weights of bullets from about 160 to 250 or 260.  They are on the 'net.  They will set the cannalure where you specify, for a price.  

I certainly enjoy mine, and I hope you find yours to be as useful.

dclark

[BrushBuster]

:shock: I have to say I'm a little awed by the knowledge out there, and my thanks to you all for setting me straight and pointing me in the right direction on acquiring a heavy load for my .348.  As It stands, I will hold off until I can make a trip down to the states, or arrange something with someone heading up this way (central B.C.). Buffalo Bore Ammunition in Carmen Idaho, sounds like they have just what I want, but as I have confirmed,shipping to Canada is out. Carmen is about 700 miles away.

I'm hardly suffering with all these collectible 200 grain Silvertips on hand, but now I'm thinking I can't really afford to shoot them, and spend all my time searching for the brass that flips over my head and hides (just kidding). Moose season is open, and you can be sure it's the M-71 that will be on my shoulder.

I'd like to close this topic by saying that every concern you have ever had about gun control is justified. It makes criminals out of honest citizens, has cost over a billion dollars so far, it has activated the black market for weapons to criminals and any eventual database will be outdated. Here's an example: If a criminal breaks into my home and steals my rifles, no matter how securely they were stored, I can be fined and jailed for allowing unregistered weapons to fall into criminal hands. Police can enter my home without a warrant if they suspect there are unregistered rifles present.  Now I must provide a hunter registration number when I buy any cartridges (even .22) and should I buy 30-06 ammo. when I don't have such a rifle registered, I can expect a visit. It goes on and on, and I never had a vote on this matter.  Maintain the Right!
Thanks again.

[bcboy]

Found a couple of good resources in Vancouver. Try www.bcredneck.com I have got some 348 stuff from him. also, Reliable Sports in Van. has always some 200 gr. Silvertips on stock.
 I am lucky because I found a few other BC friends with the 348, you might want to consider shooting cast bullets, my friend from Prince George just sent me some.
 Anyway BARNES  still makes 200-220-250 so dont worry too much. I have a 1939 deluxe model. Later thru the internet I picked up a few hundred barnes 220' and some 250 Originals.
 What I am trying to say is shoot the gun, collect the brass and get involved in some trading but in all honesty I did not find it all that hard .
  And if ya reload well R19 and IMR 4895 with 250's are kissin cousins.

     bcboy....open sights open minds

[BrushBuster]

Thanks for your input BCboy:

It's good to know I'm not alone in Canada keeping the .348 alive. As you suggest, I have decided to use up the ammo. that I have in general hunting and religiously save all my brass.  I'm an experienced hunter, but a novice at Handloading. I really would like to try the 250 grain bullet, and have concluded at this point that the load I would try initially is 60 grains of Reloder-19 pushing the Barnes 250 FN. Yours and others thoughts on this would be appreciated. Also, is the recoil from such a load significantly greater than the factory load 200 grain Silvertip? I can't bring myself to install a recoil pad on this great rifle, and don't like the slip-on type.

When I was a Kid growing up in Vancouver 50 years ago, there was a small sporting goods called (Reliable Gun and Tackle) on Main street at 26th. The proprieter was a fellow named Jimmy Matheson, and I bought my first rifle from him.  I understand that they moved to Fraser St., and that his son still runs the business. I'll bet this is the same business that you referred to, and I will be pleased to get in touch with them after all these years. You mentioned fellow .348 users in Prince George, and that is my supply point although still 200k. distant.  It would be great to make a contact there if possible.  Thanks again.

[bcboy]

Yup thats the same Reliable Sports shop. Yes I know a few other Canadian enthusists.

 If you need Reliables # let me know.As for contacting the others ,well send me a mess. and I will respond. I am not the authority on the 348...dclark is someone I listen too, he knows more than I can hope.

 And as for do the 250's recoil more than the 200's. Yes, but I found the recoil tolerable and I use only the org. steel buttplate.

 You have excellent people on this site all I can do is intro. you to a few Canucks.

  dclark....heard from Muleskinner lately?

        bcboy

[dclark]

bcboy,

I have not heard from Muleskinner for quite some time.  I saw him for a while on another site, but I haven't been there for some time.  I was going to look him up in Pinedale, WY, but have not been there in a year.

dclark

[Dand]

Brushbuster,  go to Google and look up Handloader Magazine and try to locate Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" write-ups on loading and tuning the 348.  They are getting a little old but there was a lot of good info there.  If you have trouble I may be able to dig up the issues and dates for you.  I bet you can buy back copies.  I have tried to collect every issue that had some .348 info in them.  There is load info in the Barnes manuals as well.

Shoot here in Alaska, the Anchorage Walmarts carry 250 Barnes for about $27 per box of 50.  I offered to mail some to Ken Waters but he never got back to me.  Too  bad you can't just take a drive up north and stock up in Anchorage of Fairbanks.

If you load Hawk bullets I'd work up slowly.  Seems to me that the soft jackets build pressure more quickly than the harder guilding metal jacketed bullets.  Definitely stay with the 200 gr or heavier.  I shot a caribou the 180 gr Hawks and they were just a bit light - or, since it was about -10F, my load might have been a little light.  The 220 and 250 strike me as best but I haven't taken any game with them.

One other thought, if you don't need a lot of ammo, are there any custom loaders in Canada?  I believe I've seen a number of custom loaders in the US who offer to buil .348 ammo - and many others.  It might be spendy but handy.

Good luck and enjoy that rifle. I gotta get mine out for some exercise. Just hate to rust it up in our frequent rain.

[BrushBuster]

Greetings Dand:
Thanks for your advice. I am much better informed than when I began this thread, and confident now about keeping myself stocked with .348 ammo. As I've mentioned, I don't think I will start handloading, but would love to lay my hands on some quality heavy-weight cartridges for this lever-gun of mine.

I see that Hawks also has a 270 grain bullet for the .348, boy, that should set a moose or bear on its ass (me too). Yes, as you mentioned, by doing some travelling I should be able to pick up a few boxes sometime in the future.

I'm more of a hunter than a target shooter, and have never seen a chronograph. What I do admire is a gun-cartridge combination that kills humanely fast. Shots over 100 yards are uncommon here, and the load that works best on moose within that range is what I want. I'm not a big guy, so the .348 is as powerful as I want to go.

Fifty years ago I started with a Winchester/94 in 30-30 calibre, and did fine with it but occasionally expected too much from it.  I then graduated to the 336 Marlin Carbine in .35 Rem. and that was a significant improvement. I would never part with the Marlin, its adequate for most game here and so handy and light.  Then I recently acquired the Model 71 and it hasn't left my shoulder since.  I feel totally prepared for anything with this rifle, and confident of its performance.  It's not light to pack, but with a good wide sling it's not a problem.

We have some management zones here in B.C. that allow only the shooting of immature spike bull-moose. That's what I've been up to lately and its the most demanding type of hunting I've ever done!  I learned years ago to call moose, but there's no call that brings in spike bulls!!! Seen lots of big guys but nothing legal so far. Wish me and the 71 luck. Mine will never get rusty, I fondle it too much.  

[Dand]

I came by my rifle via the passing of my father-in-law.  When mom in law asked me to check out the "moose gun" my jaw dropped.  I expected a Rem or Win or Springfield '06 but it was a deluxe win 348!  'Course it had spent a few summers in the bottom of a commercial salmon skiff and not so pretty on the outside but the action and bore are good.   I'd like to take a moose with that rifle in memory of the old timer (he worked on the gold dredges in Nome in the 30's) but haven't had the courage to try.  Too hooked on scopes etc.  And I'm more of a caribou hunter.  But really  the .348 would be great for our moose hunting in thick brush and usually 100 yds or less. Need to whack 'em down with authority  as a wounded one could get lost easily.  .338 Mag has become very popular here.  Wish I knew how to call - its catching on around here - better try it.  Sorry to hear it doesn't work on little guys - must be there are enough big guys around the spikes don't want to volunteer to get beat up.  

I would think the 250 gr would be plenty - Hawk, Kodiak, Barnes.  I had a mould made to cast a 220 PB and 250 GC but haven't had time to work with them much.  At the time I wanted to make sure I'd always have bullets for the gun.

Good luck - taking a moose with your .348 seems real classy to me!

[BrushBuster]

Dand, you mention being a Caribou hunter, that used to also be my hunting passion. Not a pursuit suitable for an iron-sighted 71/.348, so I used a scope mounted 30-06 converted from the Springfield 1917. There is no finer hunting than the pursuit of these beautiful white-maned bulls. I loved the alpine country and total wilderness. But alas, our population of Woodland Caribou in Central B.C. has dwindled to an endangered level.  Hunting was always regulated, but the increasing wolf packs have had their effect, and there is currently no control program.  I could talk for pages on this subject but its off topic. Send me a personal message and we'll compare notes on this sometime.
I do have a concern about the Winchester factory Silvertip cartridge that I am using in my Mod. 71.  Since I started hunting with it, I have had three failures of the crimp to hold the bullet in place! Since it is a large bottleneck cartridge with moderate powder loading, the bullet sinks down into the brass until only about 10% is still showing. I will simply set these aside until I can get help with them or start handloading, but it raises a concern that this condition could endanger me if I should fire one of these short rounds?? Your opinion and that of others would be appreciated on this.

If I do start handloading, my experience with this weak crimping naturally makes me think that I will go out of my way to crimp firmly, but can this be overdone with the .348? Does this not have an effect on pressure build-up and accuracy?  Definately need advice on this.
 :shock:

[Dand]

Wow I'm amazed the Win ammo had crimp failures!!!!! But from all I know it would be bad to shoot them as is.  If you have a reloading friend you might be able to borrow a kinetic bullet puller and at least get the bullets out of the cases.  Wow - that's bad if this ammo is doing this while you are out hunting - any chance you're  trying to stuff too many rounds in the magazine?  

I had Lee Precision make me a factory crimp die and it works well.  I doubt I can over crimp with it.  Much nicer than the crimp ring in standard dies which can crumple case necks.  I had it made so I could load Hawk bullets without paying a lot to have the cannelure put on.

Maybe someone else can chime in about over crimping. I think in some situation over crimping would definitely raise pressures and likely damage bullets.

Have you hung out at any near by gun shop to see if there are any serious reloaders nearby? Such a person might be able to help you out or let you reload small batches on his equipment.

[sawfish]

Brushbuster,  I have both standard and deluxe Model 71s in .348 Win., and a Browning carbine.  By far the best hunting bullet I have found is the Barnes Original 250 FP.  I have killed a number of black bear and elk with these guns, and of the bullets I have recovered, the least amount of weight retention was 81% with picture perfect mushrooms.

Both Accurate Arms and Barnes have loading data available.  Believe it, or not, one of the best loads is 60-61 gr. of AA-3100, which is a slow powder.  Just slightly faster than 4831.  These are compressed loads, which will alleviate your problems about the bullets setting back in the case.  Although this should not be happening with proper neck tension (expansion).  Your die expander ball may have to be changed for one that is slightly smaller.  Good luck with your 71s

Sawfish

[BrushBuster]

Thanks Sawfish:
That's good advice from an experieced user of the .348.  What a fine collection of these firearms you have!  My crimping problems stemed from ammo that was acquired with the rifle. I have not been a handloader in the past, so there is not a problem with existing equipment. I just have to make sure I crimp well when I do my own loading in the future.

Your bullet advice comfirms that I am on the right track. The Barnes 250 FN was my intended choice.  I am planning on using Aliant ReLoder 19 for my powder, and wonder how this compares to AA-3100? The volume recommended is exactly the same, around 60 grains. This purportedly results in 2300 fps. and I wonder if you have chronographed your loads? It's very difficult for me check the results of my own reloading when I get started.

My original thinking about using a 250 grain bullet instead of the 200, was just as a Grizzly backup to my usual moose hunting. However, nearly everybody feels that the 250 grain bullet is superior in all respects.  Do you feel that the Barnes 250 FN will perform well during Heart-Lung shots which don't provide a lot of resistance to a bullet that retains its mass so well? I will also be using this bullet on Mule Deer.

[sawfish]

Brushbuster,  My chronographed results are as follows.  These results are less than those published by the component manufacturers, but most of their readings are taken in 26" pressure barrels.  All loadings are with the Barnes 250 FN, and were taken at 15' from the muzzle with an Oehler 35-P chronograph.

62.0 gr AA-3100   2297 fps    Win M. 71 DL  (Federal 215 Primer)
61.0 gr AA-3100   2249 fps    Win M. 71 DL      "            "
61.0 gr AA-3100   2119 fps    Win M. 71 Std. (different gun-note variation)
61.0 gr AA-3100   2075 fps    Browning M. 71  Carbine

55.0 gr AA-4350   2243 fps   Win M. 71 Std.
55.0 gr AA-4350   2035 fps    Browning M. 71 Carbine

I settled on 61.0 gr. of AA-3100 because of a slight edge in accuracy.  Federal Magnum Primers were used with AA-3100 and H-4831-SC.  CCI-BR primers were used with AA-4350 and RL-19.  All of these loads are maximum, or near maximum, so proceed with caution.  AA-3100 falls between RL-19 and RL-22 in burning rate, and should make a fine powder for you in the .348 Winchester.  

I have loaded and shot 60.0 gr of RL-19 as well as 60.0 gr of H-4831-SC (but have not chronographed either one), and both loads are very similar to AA-3100 in behavior and point of impact.  Note the recurring 60.0 gr. load theme with different powders.  This is because 60.0 grains represents just about maximum case capacity with those powders.  FYI, Handloader Magazine published a very comprehensive article on the .348 Winchester in its December-January 2002 issue (#214).  If you are interested I will e-mail you the load table.  Good Luck.

Sawfish