Author Topic: SW sell out  (Read 1594 times)

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Offline Brushhunter

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SW sell out
« on: September 05, 2003, 07:47:09 AM »
Hi All--

I post quite a bit to the deer hunting column, and I'm an avid shotgunner, but I'm new to the handgun columns.  Here's a newbie question:  I keep reading about the S&W "deal" with anti-gun forces, and I've also seen reference to Bill Ruger taking some kind of a less than pro-gun stance.  What actually happened in each case?  I take it the S&W incident was more grievous, since I've seen people say they'll never buy another S&W poduct.

Thanks,

Brushunter

Offline John Traveler

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S&W sellout
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2003, 08:32:08 AM »
Brushhunter,

As I understand it:

1.  S&W during the late Slick Willy Administration was sued by the Department of Justice and several big city governments for not making their handgun products "safer" i.e. providing built-in childproof locks and devices that the NRA and most gun ownders with common sense didn't want.

The point was that Government used the long arm of the law to threaten and deprive S&W of lucrative law enforcement sales because of their slow progress in forcing gun locks and key/combination devices on the general public.

Most gun-knowledgeable people understand that such devices are at best ineffective and drive up the cost of guns, and at worse, unnecessarily complicate protection guns and make then unreliable.  

At the time, S&W was owned by a British conglomerate that had a DO ANYTHING-FOR-PROFIT attitude, and S&W management caved in to Government demands in return for promises for potential big government/lawenforcement sales.   The Gun-buying Public naturally got angry and boycotted S&W products.  That, plus the slow economy (limiting consumer purchase of recreational items) put S&W sales in a BAD way.  The company got sold AGAIN to a pro-gun rights owner and is reportedly back on its feet in quality of products, service, and resisting Government efforts to regulate gun makers out of business.

2.  God Bless Bill Ruger and May his soul rest in Peace!
Bill Ruger was truly a Giant among American industrialisrs and business geniuses of the 20th century.  We have much to thank him and be grateful for.

However, from what little I've seen of Bill during t.v. interviews, he was just a touch naive about how organized and powerful the anti-gun interests in America are!  I remember one time he was interviewed by a famous anti-gun news correspondent and asked about one of his guns (a .30 Carbine Blackhawk revolver, I think) that was used by a criminal.  His response came out lukewarm and
definitely uncharacteristic of a major figure in the gunmaking industry.  He didn't convice anyone that he had the right to manufacture and sell handguns.

Anyway, it was to his credit that Bill Ruger lived and achieved all the wonderful things that he DID do for gun owners and firearms enthusisasts.  But a great public speaker for PRO-gun owndership, he was not!

John
John Traveler

Offline Mikey

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S&W and Ruger
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2003, 08:54:24 AM »
Brushhunter:  to paraphrase, in a way of sorts, and to probably add more fuel to a fire that should have grown cold long ago, S&W under liver lipped, weak-kneed liberal British ownership caved into the Klinton administration's overtly slimly push by the even more slimy HUD director andrew cuomo, son of the even slimier, former NY governor mario the cuomo, to demand/mandate and subsequently endorse the sale of ultra safe but low/poor quality firearms and locking devices to police at the expense of the shooting public, who then became so enraged as to economically strap the company into bankruptsy.  The lesson was learned, the ownership defaulted and sold off the entire company for $15 million to a new, pro-gun rights company that promptly moved out of the state of massivetwoschmidts.   However, even the most noted minds on these forums, as well as those less noted, and those most opined will prolly admit the main issue of the agreement between HUD and S&W is only tabled, not invalidated, and may well be resurrected by the slime currently inhabiting New York's senatorial seats, to name a few.

Ruger - many speak well of him but my perspective is that during a time of gun-owner need for leadership in the on-going war 'twixt the pro's and the anti's, caved into the anti's with a 10 round limit in pistol magazine.  True, he was a major force in the field throughout his lifetime but ill prepared to move from that forum into a national leadership position for gun rights.  Regrettably, it takes only one misreading or one misleading of a major voice to turn the field, one way or the other, and to this day we suffer a 10 round magazine limitation for pistols.  

S&Ws however remain my favorite revolvers and I have enough to last me for the rest of my life, hopefully, so I can maintain my anti agreement position and not be a hypocrite.   I do own Ruger firearms, but won't buy anymore.

So much for paraphrasing, huh?


That's my take on it and my dos centavos.  Mikey.

Offline John Traveler

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SW sell out
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2003, 09:09:02 AM »
Mikey, Mi Amigo!

My GAWD, but once you get STARTED, there is just NO stopping you, is there!!!???

I just HAD to break out laughing when I read your "liver-lipped, weak-kneed liberal British" description!

It sorta brings to mind images of the quintessential Britisher  Charles Laughton (or WAS it??).  liver-lipped, quivering knees and all!

THANK YOU for making my day!

John
John Traveler

Offline John Traveler

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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2003, 09:12:19 AM »
I had NO idea that Ruger had anything to do with the 10-round magazine limit.

Did he simply agree to the proposed federal law, or did he actually take part in drafting it up?

Curious John
John Traveler

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SW sell out
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2003, 07:44:01 AM »
I'm gonna disagree somewhat with my esteemed colleges who have gone before me on this one.

Facts are that not just S&W was sued. All the major and some minor gun makers as well as most major distributors were being sued silly by cities and county governments all over the country.

ONLY S&W caved in and made an under the table deal with he Klinton administration however. They signed an agreement that is NOT subject to court review or any test of Constitutionality because it is an agreement between two parties and as such doesn't technically set legal precedence. BUT what it did was far reaching.

S&W agreed to donate a percentage of their sales to antigun forces to use to take away our guns. They agreed to spend a percentage of sales themselves to preach the antigun message. They agreed to provide data to the US Government (BATF) that is is illegal to provide based on current laws. Data on sales that they themselves don't even have unless you send in your warranty card. They agreed to impose on ALL retail sellers of S&W products (not just guns but ANY S&W product) onerous restrictions which if they didn't agree to they weren't to be allowed to buy S&W guns from the distributors.

What you might ask? Well how about for instance a requirement to lock up ALL GUNS over night in a safe. Matters not what kinda security system they have the guns were to go into a separate safe at night. All of them. handguns and long guns alike.

They agreed to have dealers place big signs up with messages that were rather anti gun in nature. These are but a few of the things they agreed to do and force dealers and distributors to do.

Their biggest distributor stopped selling S&W products when the agreement was signed.

All they got in return for all of this was Slick Willie's promise (now what do you think slick willie's word/promise is worth?) not to continue the suits against S&W and to prevent any new ones against them. Oh they also were to get ALL government contracts for guns S&W made WITHOUT BIDDING. Some thing slick didn't have the legal right to do himself and which he didn't do.

S&W wasn't taken out of the lawsuits and were named in new ones. They didn't get any government contracts without bidding on them. Gun owners rose up in a rightous furor for awhile until some among us with short memories decided to forgive and forget. S&W went belly up and the Brits who owned them managed to dump it on a somewhat suspect American firm who at the time only business was gun locks which slick had managed to push down the throats of the manufacturers.

The new ownership cannot show ONE SINGLE thing they've done that is PRO GUN or proactive to rid themselves of the agreement. They've not requested it be set aside by the courts. They've not petitioned Bush to nullify it. They've not said publicly we are not gonna do it. Nope not one single action have they taken even tho now we have a Republican President and Congress and most likely such an attempt now would succeed. Nope the agreement is STILL IN PLACE and just as valid as it ever was and just as enforceable by the NEXT democrap to take office and you KNOW another will take office one day. It is a bomb waiting to explode and the new owners know it and are doing nothing I've seen to remove it before it ticks down to the time to explode.

Anyone spending money on new S&W products are in my personal opinion supporting the enemy and cutting their own throats. If you wish to particiapate in such activity so be it. Don't come crying here for solice tho when the next democrap takes office and the agreement is hauled out and dusted off and S&W is either foced to comply or fold again.

As to Bill Ruger. I never liked him as a person that much before he made all the comments that so hurt gun owners. Never really cared much for the products his company made either. Had a bunch and was generally always grossly disappointed by them. But he was rather instrumental in the 10 shot magazine limit. In return for his support he got his Mini 14 and 30 exempted from being listed along with the others specifically banned. He wimped out/sold out/call it what you will. BUT he personally did it. Sturm, Ruger Inc. didn't. He wasn't the company. He was the founder and he was the President but he wasn't the company. He no longer owned it. I never personally saw it the same as the S&W deal and never developed the position against Ruger products I have to S&W products. But then since I personally don't care for Ruger guns in general it doesn't affect me that much anyway even if I had. At this time I own only one Ruger gun and must admit it is a very pleasant surprise. I actually like it and it is a good one and an accurate one.

I challenge anyone to come up with old documentation to show what I've said above is not the way it came down. I once kept copies of it all on the forums but it was lost when we crashed and had to move to this current software. I should have kept it on my HD I guess but didn't so I've lost all the old files I had on it.

GB


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Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Double D

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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2003, 08:10:40 AM »
GB,

Memory is fuzzy, but if I remember it right, Bill Ruger sent his famous (infamous) magazine ban letter to every member of congress as the Head of SAAMI, not as the president of Ruger.  When you sent a protest letter to the Ruger Company, Ruger Co. sent back a letter saying this was the action of SAAMI and not Sturm Ruger and Company.

The contribution the Bill Ruger made to the firearms industry wasn't his brilliant gun designs, but his brilliant firearms marketing skills.  I have even heard it said that his real skill was being able to market other's design and imply they were his.... But all big manufacturing businesses does that.

I suppose you would expect our National Rifle Association (I am a member) to expose this, but S&W and Ruger spend a lot of money with the NRA.  Join the NRA, you can't vote to change things from the outside!

Online Graybeard

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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2003, 05:41:25 PM »
I've been a life member of the NRA longer than half the folks who post on this site have been alive. You can't change it from the inside either. IT is rotten to the core. Like a rotten apple you really need to toss it and replace it with another that isn't. I think that's what really needs to be done with the NRA. It has out lived its usefulness and now does more harm than good.

The power structure is so enshrined they can't be removed short of another revolt like the one Neal Knox led in Cinnicinati.

GB


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline Brushhunter

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SW sell out
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2003, 01:24:03 AM »
Wow, I had no idea (as usual) what the broader implications of my original question were!  Thanks to all who have posted for your enlightening answers.  I've never bothered to own handguns, since I'm primarily a hunter and have enough trouble making sure I get quick humane kills and makeable shots with long guns.  For home defense, I've always just relied on a 20-ga shotgun with a short, though legal, barrel.  I'll probably continue to do so.  The idea of buying a revolver and doing some casual target practice, as well as having a more convenient choice for defense purposes, just came along by itself.  Also, I'm being sort of forced to apply for a pistol permit by the Republik of Konneckitcut (see?  I'm getting into the "K" thing already :lol: ).  Otherwise I have to stand around while gun dealers call up on the phone for a background check and whatnot; so I figured if I have to get the permit to be treated like a normal human being, rather than a potential criminal, when I go shopping I might as well buy a revolver.  I have to wonder whether the people who thought up the pistol permit intended that as a result? I doubt it:)

However--I can deal with the idea of S&W, a company with which I'm not familiar, since they mostly make handguns--being corrupt and stupid.  The most DISTURBING thing that anyone has said so far, for me, is that the NRA itself is not solid.  I've always been a member of it, but I'm a lurker--just quietly pay my dues and not questioned their acticities closely.  Apparently I've been very naive.  Too much time in a duck blind and not enough time spent reading the stuff sent me in the mail.  I'll do better in the future.  Graybeard and the others: if you can point me to other forums, webpages, or whatever that discuss these problems within the NRA, I'd be very grateful.  I'm going to start by looking in the indexes of forums that I frequent.  (Here and Shotgunworld) for forums on gun rights.

Thanks to all for the eye-opening posts!

Brushhunter

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SW sell out
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2003, 06:14:54 AM »
Best place to start is Neal Knox's site. It is www.nealknox.com He has links to many others on it or did last time I was there.

The single biggest problem with the NRA today is Wayne LaPierre. But he has his cronies and hinchmen so entrenched now he is untouchable I think. I am of the opinion that the NRA is one of the most corrupt organizations extant today. Not everyone shares that view. But if you dig deeply enough and locate the facts you just might come to the same conclusion I have.

The NRA could care less what you as a member think or want to happen. Write them with a suggestion if you think differently. It has become a big money scheme and little more as far as I can see.

GB


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline les hemby

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SW sell out
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2003, 12:42:01 PM »
i never realized S&W sold out to that extent :shock: i knew they sold out though.i am very happy for info GB i have a 686 and wouldnt sell it but after this thread will probably look into taurus because i have spent my last dime with smith and i really wanted a 617 gonna have to ck into taurus tracker

Offline S.B.

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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2003, 04:57:37 PM »
Bottom line. Smith and Wesson isn't owned by those people any more, Bill Ruger has passed away. So, let's get back to gun companies supporting their own products and our sport. Don't let by gone mistakes by anyone keep you from buying your choice of firearms.
"The Original Point and Click Interface was a Smith & Wesson."
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Offline myronman3

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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2003, 05:18:57 PM »
i had my eyes opened on the nra when my pops ran for congress and sought their endorsment (he honestly never stood any chance of winning).  because he wasnt flinging money their way, they instead endorsed a former d.a. who was afraid to prosecute members of the new orleans saints football team that gang raped a stripper in the college dorms they were staying in.  the same blankey-blank that prosecuted me when i caught two drunk men breaking into my house and handled them myself.  the guy is about as anti gun as you can get; yet they endorsed him.   what a joke.   and la peirre is an idiot.   ever seen him talk on t.v.? i bet he has a hard time tying his shoes; cause he sure sucks when it comes to public speaking.  they wont get my $$ until i see different from them.

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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2003, 07:20:13 PM »
SB sez:

Quote
Bottom line. Smith and Wesson isn't owned by those people any more, Bill Ruger has passed away. So, let's get back to gun companies supporting their own products and our sport. Don't let by gone mistakes by anyone keep you from buying your choice of firearms


Correct SB, the owners of S&W are NOT the same ones who sold out. BUT GREAT BIG BUT the current owners have made NO changes and attempted to make no changes. The agreement is still in place and only awaiting the next democrap president to bring it back to life and to be enforced.

So I say anyone who supports S&W in view of this is cutting their own throat. If you are one of the kind who wishes to do that so be it. Not my place to tell you not to committ suicide nor to not vote for folks who will take away your rights. I think folks who do those things aren't too bright but that's just the opinion of an old man who supports friends and comes down hard on enemies.

GB


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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline les hemby

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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2003, 02:59:54 AM »
. i have never thought about it but i have never heard or read anything about new co. going against old agreement. , what groups can we depend on to defend our rights. or is NRA even trying to defend them. If S&W cant see fit to go against old agreement it is just old co. with new owners :twisted: which is really a pretty good tactic to sell guns and still uphold agreement. The little question at first turned into alot more than i ever knew :shock: