Author Topic: What bullets do you use?  (Read 1327 times)

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Offline fifty50seventy

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What bullets do you use?
« on: September 03, 2003, 05:00:43 AM »
Howdy - new to this site.  Sure miss Shooters.com except the ding-a-lings. Sure good info there/archives specially! so hope it comes back!  I'm using a Lee 500FN (.512-.518 depending on temp/mix?).  What's better? Also used .512 /450 very old and dark colored bought from Huntingtons - work okay too.
What's good for long distance?
50-70

Offline Clarence

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What bullets do you use?
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2003, 03:43:06 PM »
Fifty-Seventy,

What kind of rifle are you shooting?  What ranges do you shoot?  

I've not shot a 50, but the twist makes a lot of difference.  Military rifles and older Shiloh Sharps had twists in the 1 to 40 range, if I remember correctly.  I'd guess that 450 grains is about as heavy as a slow twist would support.  

On the other hand, there are several barrelmakers producing 50 with twists in the 1 to mid-20's, and they should shoot bullets up to ~700 grains, probably larger than you want.

For hunting at 150 yards or less, the 450 grain bullets should work fine.  For silhouette, I'd want something in the 625+ grain range.

Clarence
Clarence

Offline fifty50seventy

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What bullets do you use?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2003, 05:41:03 PM »
Thanks for the info, Clarence.  I'm shooting a Swedish or Norwegian rollingblock from 1870 or so.  I think the receiver was USA contract made but the barrel Norwegian.  So far I shoot at 100yds with the barrel sights and get under 4" groups which seems better than I can see the target!  This is my first BP gun and I really like it.  On this roller I can look through the barrel on a bench rest and see I'm aimed about 18" higher than where the bullet hits. The barrel is .514 and the .515 Lee bullets seem to cast .516 to .519 so I resize them to .510 so they fit in the Bell or Bertram cartridges.  .512's  from Hungington's is a wee bit tight for the brass and shaves off a bit.  I put 60 or 65 of Goex 2f and slight compression.  I notice the primers seem to pop out a bit when fired but the gun seems pretty tight and strong. Right now I'm sanding away on a new stock. I think the trigger pull is 7 lbs or so (hung lead from it)but seem lighter to me. I'm wondering what the potential of this gun is - Schutzen, Silouette - I hear some have done it! What do you think?
50-70

Offline Clarence

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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2003, 04:28:51 AM »
50-70,

Have you checked the twist?  If not, mark a cleaning rod for length and angle when you've just engaged the rifling forward of the chamber, push a tight patch through either until you've made a full revolution or a half revolution, and measure the length it takes to do that.  If you can only get a half revolution (I think that's what will happen), multiply the distance by  2 to get the twist rate.   I dn't have a good reference for RB twist rate, but the 50's were typically in the 36-40 rate, which limited them to the 450 grain bullets.

If you really want to be competitive in silhouette, you probably need at least a 600 grain bullet in 50 caliber to be efficient enough ballistically for low wind drift at turkeys and rams.  More than likely, your rifle won't stabilize that long a bullet.  If it did, you probably wouldn't want to shoot it prone because of the recoil in a relatively light rifle.

Your rifle might work for Scheutzen. but most of the rifles used for that game are capable of 3-4 inch groups at 200 yds. to be competitive for the bench portion.  Your rifle might be that good-I have a 43 Spanish RB that I believe is capable of consistent 2 inch groups at 100 yards.

It sounds like you have a great, fun plinking and hunting rifle.  Or, you could always rebarrel with a heavier barrel and turn it into a very competitive silhouette rifle like many others have done.

As to the primers backing out, measure the depth of the rim recess and compare it with the rim thickness.  If you have much more than 0.005" clearance, you can get that happening.  The firing pin pushes the cartridge forward, the pressure holds it forward, but there is nothing to restrain the primer from backing out.  Often, this will also give you short case life, with case separations.  The answer is to get thicker rims that fit your chamber.  Buffalo Arms does this for other cases by swaging the rims thicker, and it works well (they take .43 rims from 0.060" to 0.088" or so) and solves the problem.  The thin rims in the .43, incidentally, causes some separations after 2 firings.

Clarence
Clarence

Offline fifty50seventy

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What bullets do you use?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2003, 05:26:12 PM »
Clarence, thanks for all the info. I get about 3/4 of a turn going down the barrel which is 32".  It seems like half a turn in about 20 or so inches.  Not precise.  Somehow I thought I had a 1 in 26" twist from something I saw on a web site or read.  The barrel has very nice deep grooves.
The case seems okay in thickness.  I do notice that there is about 1/32 inch that I can pull the block back from the chamber.  Maybe this allows the primer to push the block back but it must take a lot of pressure to do this because the hammer is heavy and the spring too.
I have a semi-adjustable tang sight (not windage)but haven't had the tang drilled because it is so nice I hate to have holes put into it. The Remington patent dates are very clear.  With the barrel sight, I doubt I can see better than a 4" circle, so a 4" group seems pretty good to me at 100yds.  It seems to me that I couldn't put much powder into the case with a 600 grain bullet as i can only get 65 of Goex 2f with the 500 Lee.  Maybe a better bullet shape would go in further?
Again, thanks for the info!
50-70

Offline Clarence

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What bullets do you use?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2003, 04:38:53 PM »
50-70,

It sounds like your twist is around 1 in 40 inches or so, which is probably typical for the military rifles.  I know I have a reference that has that information but can't find it.  That will stabilize a bullet around an inch long but not much longer.  The 600-700 grain bullets probably run 1.25-1.4 inches long, so wouldn't stabilize.  I wouldn't go any heavier than the 500 Lee.

The 1 in 26 inch twist is what the modern makers have gone to as people have gotten interested in using heavy bullets up to 1.4-1.5 inches long in the 50's.  Before that, even Shiloh used a slow twist-1 in 38 inches, I believe.

Your statement that there is 1/32 of an inch play in the block worries me.  If the hammer is completely down against the firing pin, there should be essentiallly no movement in the block.  The block should be fit flush to the rear of the barrel, and the hammer in the down position should hold it there.  As you begin to pull the hammer back, you can begin to wiggle the breech block a little, but not that much.  I read somewhere that the design is for 0.005-0.006 inch camminig from the time the hammer begins to go beneath the breechblock to the time it is fully down.   1/32 (about 0.030 inch) movement is definitely excessive and could very well cause the primers to back out as you described.  I think you might want to have the rifle checked out to be sure it is safe to continue to fire.  

The barrel sounds good, and it would be worthwhile to have it put back into good shooting condition.  Dave Higginbotham of Lone Star or other competent gunsmiths could handle that job for you (Dave probably has parts to replace your worn parts, if that's the problem).  The ability to shoot 4 inch or better groups makes it a keeper for plinking, informal target shooting, and hunting.

Clarence
Clarence

Offline fifty50seventy

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What bullets do you use?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2003, 05:17:48 AM »
Clarence, thanks for the help.  I decided to measure the gap and I found I could only put two sheets of the thick cover of "Single Shot Exchange" (which a friend gave me) behind the barrel when on 'half-cock' or when pulling the block back when the hammer is down.  This makes it .014 on my micrometer so actually less than I estimated, but it looks a bit more than that. Also, the tiny gap is a parallel gap between the brrel and block, not a slant. Like you say, I probably should have a competent Rolling block expert look at it.  
I could probably make a pretty nice sillouette potential gun with a re-barrel, but that's pretty expensive, plus I'd like to see how this can do with tang sights and a at longer distances. I even like having this old Swedish or Norwegian barrel that is over 125 yrs old! Guess I'll mainly work on this 500 grain Lee bullet for shooting. Sounds like it is almost right.
Again, thanks
50-70

Offline HWooldridge

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What bullets do you use?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2003, 08:17:40 AM »
If you're not already doing so, use a drop tube to put the powder in the case.  That will allow max capacity.

Offline John Traveler

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Rolling Block headspace
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2003, 08:22:16 AM »
fifty7seventy,

If your Norwegian/Swedish Remington Rolling Block really does have 0.014" gap between the barrel breech and the block, it is EXCESSIVE!

A quick check using empty or fired cartridge case in the chamber will verify this.  Use the same magazine cover to see if you can close the breech and lock it in place with the hammer.  If you can, then that 0.014" is headspace.... and it is EXCESSIVE.

Your brass will crack near the rim if you continue to fire them, and worse, the excessive headspace will leak gas as the breech fails to seal.

There is a way to tighten up the slop and make it safer to shoot.  You find THICKER-RIMMED brass and load it.  Or, you can make some washers to increase cartridge rim thickness.  At any rate, if you continue to shoot the rifle in that condition, you are asking for an accident.
 
Please have a gunsmith check it out!

John
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Offline fifty50seventy

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What bullets do you use?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2003, 08:48:28 AM »
John,I see you point about brass cracking.  I guess the case stays in the chamber by pressure, but the rim would tend to push out a bit and crack.  I'm headed to a gunsmith this afternoon.  It actually seems like a very small gap but I want to have it checked.  Thanks to all you guys for suggestions!
50-70

Offline fifty50seventy

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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2003, 04:07:39 PM »
Well, back from the gunsmith - he thinks the block gap is not something that matters much.  Howeever, I see John's point and I might get a new block from Lonestar later as they are not to expensive. I now have a new tang sight too as he tapped and drilled the tang for the Shiloh #104 I got used and cheap and which is not easily adjustable.  This tang sight looks really good on the Rolling block and I think I'll be able to hit a ram at 500 yds (if it will work for that far)and won't have trouble holding off to the side when necessary and it will be quicker than adjusting . First, I want to see how I really do at 100yds - I have to go a long way to get to a longer range unfortunately.
Thanks, Ya'all
50-70

Offline fifty50seventy

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« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2003, 05:01:54 AM »
Thanks, marsh.  I'm sure I don't get any blowback as theres no soot on the brass or back of it or any sighn of it.  Being a dummy about this BP I had even oiled the barrel and chamber with Mobile 1 oil to make it slippery! (Until a friend clued me in that the brass need to expand and 'hold' in the chamber) Anyway, even this didn't cause blowback and I've used reduced loads of 60 grains and the most of 65 so far. Seems funny that you were trying reduced loads in a 38-55, heh, heh. Guess you're an experimenter - maybe for chickens? Anyway, I still feel wary about having any gap behind the case however small - I was thinking I could also glue or attaach a shim of steel to the face of the block.  Probably won't though. Thanks!
50-70

Offline Clarence

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What bullets do you use?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2003, 03:19:15 PM »
50-70,

I share the concerns of those who have already posted.  You should make sure there is no slop between the pin and frame or between the pin and breechblock.  If another gunsmith confirms the gun is in good condition, the correct rim thickness to avoid case separation is the depth of the rim recess in the barrel plus 0.014 less 0.002 or 0.003 to avoid case separation.  I'm betting you come up with a number that's at least 0.100, and that's a lot more than your rim thickness.  I'd be interested in knowing both the rim thickness and the correct rim thickness you calculate after you've measured the rim recess.

Clarence
Clarence

Offline fifty50seventy

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What bullets do you use?
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2003, 05:41:52 PM »
Thanks, you guys!  Clarence, the pins are real tight in the frame and block.  I can't push them out with my finger - I have to tap them with a wood dowl. That is, there is no 'slop' at all.  Not on the block or hammer either. I'm not sure what I should measure.  The 50-70 case on both the Bertram and Bell cases seem to fit flat to the back of the barrel.  The space is between the back of the case and barrel and the block which hasn't slop, but has a gap I can see through when the hammer is half-cock.  I hope this makes sense.
50-70

Offline fifty50seventy

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« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2003, 01:56:22 PM »
Marsh, I'm sure somebody worked on the gun.  I only have this Swedish Rollingblock so I don't know how big the pins should be, but I'll bet these are new ones. They look new and are polished. The holes throgh the receiver look new too.  I suddenly thought of a better way to measure the gap - use my valve feeler gauges.  Dug them out and the darn things are slightly rust.  Used to adjust my valves every month once but now have a "modern" car - a 1985 Buick and never touch it. Anywy, I tried to clean them with a Brillo -like pad and determined the gap is .010 (using paper and mic I got .014)  This doesn't seem like much but it looks bigger than that.  If I put a .015 gauge between the block and barrel then the hammer won't drop.
Thinking about it, I bet a setting the barrel back a bit would cure it easier than trying to put a block.  This has the slide ejector too which I suppose the newer styles don't have.  You're right- I don't want to hear about a major job order.  It could easily cost more than what I paid for the gun!
50-70

Offline Clarence

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« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2003, 11:13:11 AM »
50-70,

One of your posts said you could see the gap at half-cock.  That's not the right way to judge it.  You need to put the hammer all the way down and then measure it.  

All rolling blocks have small but perceptible movement of the block when the trigger is at half-cock.   By the time the hammer is down and activates the firing pin, the slop is almost always gone.


Although it's a very simple mechanism, the rolling block has sophisticated theory behind its construction.  The mating surfaces are placed in such a manner than there is some camming action as the hammer drops.  This allows a cartridge in a slightly dirty chamber, for instance, to be seated fully by the hammer and still fire.  This usually causes vertical stringing, but I'm sure that was not the concern of the designer.

Put the hammer all the way down, check for block movement, and then reuse your feeler gauge.  Let us know what you find.  If all your observations have been at half cock, your rifle may very well be fine.

Clarence
Clarence

Offline fifty50seventy

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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2003, 02:02:45 PM »
Clarence,  if the hammer is all the way down, the block has no gap.  If I pull very hard on the block against the hammer spring I can pull it enough to see the gap which is apparently .01.  At half-cock, I still have to pull the block back to see the gap since there seems to be a bit of spring action on the block too but very light.  I guess I didn't explain this too clearly to begin with.  Plus, it looked to me like the gap was about 1/10th of an inch which was about how much I estimated the primer popped out.  I figured the primer must be pushing the block back this much and I even wondered if it was pushing the hammer back hard enough to fling it to full cock.  The primers get a good deep dent in them too. In checking things with empty cases I have noticed that if the case isn't almost all the way in because it is too big, the block is held open a bit more and the hammer won't even fall. I've never had a rolling block before and although I sort of trust my instincts about mechanical things, I also know I could be making mistakes or wrong judgments, so I really appreciate the help, suggestions, and info.  Thank You!
50-70