S&W mod. 19 spitting lead!

[revolverman]

Hey, I need help.  I have an old S&W model 19 that is my favorite gun. It seems like accuracy has been slipping, and yesterday, I got PEPPERED with spitting particles each time I fired.  I keep it very clean, so I do not believe fouling is the cause.  What can I do to save my favorite wheel gun?  Thanks in advance!  RVLVERMN

[John Traveler]

Howdy, Revolverman!

1.  When you said "old model 19", exactly how old is it?  This model came out in the middle 1950's.

2.  How many rounds fired?  How many full-house magnum loads?
Spitting problem with lead or jacketed bullets?

3.  How is the cylinder end play (front-to-back slop)?  

4.  What is the cylinder gap? (should be 0.006 to 0.008")

5.  Spitting during rapid double-action or during deliberate slow-fire single action?  If both, timing is out of whack or forcing cone burned (enlarged by gas cutting)

Need more details to determine the problem and advise on fix.

I used to shoot PPC competition, and put some 50,000 rounds through one gun in two years.  Almost all lead bullet stuff.  Still shot like new when tested from a machine rest.

On the other hand, the barrel forcing cone and topstrap on this model has been known to show gas cutting after only several hundred full-charge magnum rounds.  Rapid increase in cylinder gap and headspace too.  That's one of the reasons S&W came out with the L-frame .357 Magnums.  They are more durable.

John

[revolverman]

thanks for the reply, my mod 19 is an 80's model.  There is not much endplay at all, but the B/C gap is about .008.  It spits all of the time (slow and fast fire, single and double).  I have rarely shot full house .357 loads, mostly I target shoot cast 158 gr .38's, and I have shot probably 4000 of those.  But I am the second owner, so the first guy could have taken it Moose hunting for all I know.  I think that it does spit worse with lead bullets, but it does happen with jacketed bullets as well.  Do you think that camfering the forcing cone might help?, and if so, what degree angle is the forcing cone cut at (3,11,18 etc?)?  I think that the timing is ok, there is not any wear around where the bolt locks in the cylinder, and it is a very smooth action, with nothing binding or skipping.

[John Traveler]

Revolverman,
Thanks for the rapid response and details.

Okay.

4,000 rounds of 158grain .38 Specials is nothing.  Your revolver should handle that indefinitely.

1.  0.008" cylinder gap is pushing edge of "serviceable, but it needs fixin".

2.  Is there is noticeable radial play, i.e. cylinder rotational play?.  Excessive play there would mean your gun is out of time.  Look at cylinder bolt stop (bottom of frame) and see if it slops around in it's cutout.  Gently holding cylinder against rotation, slowly cock the gun.  Does bolt snap into cylinder cutout before full cock is reached?  Good timing if it does.  Cylinder ratchet or hand or both are worn if it doesn't.

3.  Is the barrel indexed correctly (front sight lines up vertically, cylinder ejector rod locks up in lug bolt, crane snug against the frame?  If not, crane could be bent (common from snapping gun closed Hollywood style), barrel not fit properly or undertightened.

4.  does cylinder spin freely on crane, and when locked in frame?  If not, could be bent cylinder ejector rod.

5.  bore-to-chamber alignment.  If you have access to a range rod (precision ground drill rod with slip-fit in barrel bore. determine barrel bore-to-chamber alignment.  Lacking that, try cocking the hammer and peering thru the firing pin hole/chamber/bore at a strong light.  Look for cylinder misalignment in one or more chambers.  Common for one to e slightly off.  If all or most are misaligned, something DEFINITELY wrong.

6.  S&W had some big recalls in the early to mid-1980's for barrels that got out with bad forcing cones.  S&W Service Center recall notices went out to big law enforcement agencies.  Lead  and jacket spitting, etc.  Problem fixed by re-cutting forcing cone.  This is easy to do from muzzle with a pull-type cone reamer.  10 minutes including cleaning out chips.  Dunno what degree angle it was.

7.  If your gun passes all these checkpoints, it needs gunshop inspection by  a certified revolver smith.

HTH
John

[Mikey]

Revolverman:  Send it back to S&W to close up the gap between the end of the cylinder and the barrel - it should be tighter than .008.  Also, if they don't do it have a qualified gunsmith open up the forcing cone to 11 degrees - I had a Model 27 that spit stuff back at me and when I looked, all I could see was that the back end of the barrel was completely flat - no contouring of the outer edges and no forcing cone, so to speak.  I sent it back to S&W for complete correction and it came back as an absolute sweetheart - no spittin' nutin, honey.  They beveled the outer edges and gave me a 11 degree forcing cone - tha made it work right.

As for the Model 19 - one of my favorite S&Ws, 38s shouldn't be any problem but those high-speed, lightweight 357s (like the 110 or 125 grainers) are a pita - the gases created by the faster buring powders do a lot of damage to a mid-frame gun like the 19 but, believe it or not, heavy loads in the original 158, or 168-173, 180 or 200 grainers with large charges of slower buring powders are much easier on those particular models.  Hope this helps.  Mikey.

[Siskiyou]

There are a lot of old retired M19 S&W law enforcement pistols out there.  Departments traded them to dealers when they switched over to autoloaders.  Some are great guns, but a lot of  worn guns went out the door with the good ones.  Some of the acadmey guns may have had 20,000 rounds fired through them, ninety-eight percent wadcutters.  

I wished I would have bought my issue M19, it had been rebuilt a year before the switch.  

I remember stepping back off the firing line after getting srayed with lead from the adjacent shooters' M19.  I had blood leaking out the side of my face.  It made PPC more realistic.

Siskiyou

[Buckskinner]

With all of the excellent advice that you have received, I almost feel like there is no point to mention this, but here goes....Have you tried using a Lewis lead remover to clean the forcing cone? I just thought that with having shot so many lead bullets, the forcing cone has gotten plated up pretty well and perhaps that would bring things back into the norm if it is that. Also, you can use the lead remover to polish the forcing cone area by hand using 400 and 600 carborundum wrapped around the screen.

Just a thought.