Author Topic: handi: what is enough gun (Read 5281 times)

Sourdough · « **Reply #60 on:** March 12, 2009, 08:47:01 AM »

I have two Handis, a 30-06, and a .35 Whelen. Thay have both taken several Moose and Black Bears. I would not hesitate to use either one to go after a Grizzly. They are both totally capable, and recoil is not bad enough to make me flinch. In other words they are comfortable for me to shoot. I'm 6'2" and weigh 235 lbs, so I am a big guy.

My 45-70 would also be up to the challenge of taking really big game, it's just with a rainbow trajectory it's harder to hit with it at longer ranges.

handipardner · « **Reply #61 on:** March 12, 2009, 05:21:59 PM »

For many the 30-30, the 45-70 or the 35 whelen would be enough gun given reasonable distances.
What is missing from this thread is a discussion of classic older rounds used on the bigger game animals such as elk, moose, buffalo and bears. If you've hunted such animals with these cartridges: what bullets were used, at what distances and what have been your results?

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #62 on:** March 13, 2009, 06:10:48 AM »

Sounds like you just asked a ? that needs to have it's own thread.

handipardner · « **Reply #63 on:** March 13, 2009, 01:23:44 PM »

I wiill rephrase then. There are number of posters or lurkers that consider cartrideges such as the 30-30, 45-70 or 35 whelen enough gun.
Can you describe any experiences you have had with the bigger game such as elk, moose, buffalo and bears. I want to give an opportunity for the older cartridge shooters to round out the enough gun discussion. In the past the 30-30 was more than enough gun. During a hunt a couple of years ago I met the young son of our guide who shot elk with the 30-30. He was a poor shot based on his retelling but still managed to get his elk.

Thanks

handipardner

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #64 on:** March 13, 2009, 02:17:11 PM »

I've never shot anything bigger than a 300 lb. hog with my rifle so I can't give you any examples for enough gun shooting elk, and bear, but what you brought up about the older folks using the 30-30 I can relate to that.

Growing up around the late fifties, and early sixties, most country folks used what they had available as far as guns went, and they were mostly considered a tool more than anything, and a .22 got the job done on small game along with a trusty old .410, and a 16 gauge or 12 for larger game birds.

The old 30-30 and the 30-06 and just a handful of bullet weights, handled everything from deer to those you mentioned, so enough gun was pretty simple back in those days.

Today we've got soooo many choices, and we can match the rifle and ammo exactly to the game, which in a way makes a persons head spin when you think about it.

There really isn't a chance to make a wrong choice as the variety we have available in guns and ammo today makes a broad number of rifles the ultimate all around gun, and becomes more about personal preference, rather than what is enough gun.

Oldshooter · « **Reply #65 on:** March 13, 2009, 03:28:20 PM »

Quote

There really isn't a chance to make a wrong choice as the variety we have available in guns and ammo today makes a broad number of rifles the ultimate all around gun, and becomes more about personal preference, rather than what is enough gun.

That sums it up pretty well!

handipardner · « **Reply #66 on:** March 13, 2009, 04:35:04 PM »

dannytoro sayes
"Currently I just acquired a new 500 S&W Handi-rifle, and want to try something different with it. Not having the funds for one of those fine 50-90's or 110's like Spencer replicas, I still wanted to see how hunting with those big old cartridges of yore worked. So I'm going to learn about bullet molds and those heavy weight bullets over 400 grains. Reading about Billy Dixon's famous 50-90 shot sort of stoked a curiosity about just what these class of bullets could do. I'm retired and have nothing better to do, my size and history of working with industrial equipment have nearly killed my pain sensory system... .....So why not... "

Since many american shooters are clearly willing to tolerate levels of recoil that europeans would not, the question is why. I have discussed the shock and awe theory of hunting. The second part relates to shooters. I own a 6.5mm rifle and in the eighties and part of the nineties many cartridges and bullets in that caliber became less available. THEN IT CHANGED. The target shooters realized that the 6.5mm caliber was very efficient: high BC and high sectional density. They didnt want to be kicked around more than necessary.
The 6.5mm caliber which has never been popular in the US was rediscovered and the variety of 6.5mm bullets and cartridges have increased which is great for me. Calibers and cartridges go through fads though he trend in the US is for more gun.

CW mentioned up to 100 lbs recoil off the bench which is an insane number. The fact is while the human body is remarkably resilient
as you get older you are more vulnerable to injury and slower to heal. Older individuals are frequently less aware of what is happening to them. The fact that you are less sensitive to muzzle blast and recoil from your past work may be an indication that you already have sensory damage. The energy from a big gun does not however disappear and will shock your brain and body even if you dont feel it.
Some big gun shooters are thrill seekers, they get a kick out of the shock. Lead exposure is also a consideration. Try not to overdo it.

handipardner · « **Reply #67 on:** March 13, 2009, 04:47:01 PM »

"There really isn't a chance to make a wrong choice as the variety we have available in guns and ammo today makes a broad number of rifles the ultimate all around gun, and becomes more about personal preference, rather than what is enough gun."

To jimbo47 and oldshooter:

I had wondered when I was younger why both in business and in evolution we have many choices:
GM always gave you more choices than the Japanese: one reason is to reduce the chance that the best choice will be recognized and the mediocre will have a chance to survive and prosper. That clearly was the strategy for GM. Also on wall street.

with warm regards

handipardner

maglvr44 · « **Reply #68 on:** March 13, 2009, 05:54:30 PM »

Whatever the big game animal, more of it has been killed with a 30-30 than will ever be killed with any other single caliber!

handipardner · « **Reply #69 on:** March 14, 2009, 05:50:54 AM »

what is enough gun for this game animal? Beer run.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7061726

handipardner · « **Reply #70 on:** March 14, 2009, 09:43:16 AM »

some more thoughts on the 30-06: a more gun perspective

http://www.gunhuntermag.com/Articles/tabid/113/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/191/The-3006-Becomes-a-Magnum.aspx

dannytoro · « **Reply #71 on:** March 14, 2009, 02:03:33 PM »

Quote

Since many american shooters are clearly willing to tolerate levels of recoil that europeans would not, the question is why. I have discussed the shock and awe theory of hunting. The second part relates to shooters. I own a 6.5mm rifle and in the eighties and part of the nineties many cartridges and bullets in that caliber became less available. THEN IT CHANGED. The target shooters realized that the 6.5mm caliber was very efficient: high BC and high sectional density. They didnt want to be kicked around more than necessary.
The 6.5mm caliber which has never been popular in the US was rediscovered and the variety of 6.5mm bullets and cartridges have increased which is great for me. Calibers and cartridges go through fads though he trend in the US is for more gun.

CW mentioned up to 100 lbs recoil off the bench which is an insane number. The fact is while the human body is remarkably resilient
as you get older you are more vulnerable to injury and slower to heal. Older individuals are frequently less aware of what is happening to them. The fact that you are less sensitive to muzzle blast and recoil from your past work may be an indication that you already have sensory damage. The energy from a big gun does not however disappear and will shock your brain and body even if you dont feel it.
Some big gun shooters are thrill seekers, they get a kick out of the shock. Lead exposure is also a consideration. Try not to overdo it.

...My current game getter is a 7.62 x 39, you can't get much more recoiless then that. I'm also quite fond of stealing the neighbor's "Walking Stick". A fine custom Kenny Jarret flyweight that barely cracks 5 pounds with scope. It's a .250 Savage. But I feel a bit silly with both of them. The Saiga is not too bad, but it is definitely a bit small for me. Hopefully this summer it will get adorned with a custom wooden stock of much longer pull. As a wide body ex-defensive tackle, I'm built like a Coke machine. I also spent decades using industrial rotary hammers anchoring machinery, so I'm fairly immune to shock. Although I'm a stickler for hearing protection. I do have a few guns people frequently want to fire, but quickly hand back. I'm also the usual suspect picked to fire the local buddy's Anti Tank Rifle when they do shows.

While being big might sound great, it comes with it's hurdles. People frequently shade under you. You learn your almost always alone in dark allies. You can't go to bars much, with out some drunk wanting to pick a fight with the big guy. During catastrophic events, some people hide behind you. Then again, after decades of strength training, and handling heavy industrial equipment, guns recoil is not usually an issue. But that does not mean I don't tell folks to shoot with a gun they enjoy and can master full control over. In fact I usual question if they really want to try firing some of my guns. It's a lot like eating really hot peppers. Some do it for the wrong reasons and regret it later.....And I hate hot peppers!!!!!

handipardner · « **Reply #72 on:** March 14, 2009, 02:30:14 PM »

dannytoro thanks for your response.

Every time a new powerful cartridge comes out there is a rush to buy the rifles. The big weatherbys and ultramags are an example. Ammunition in powerful calibers is also disproportionately sold. There clearly is a group of shooters and hunters that crave shooting powerful cartridges outside any legitimate hunting needs. One of the reasons I started this thread is to get people reflecting on certain shooting habits. Based on you comments you do not crave the big gun shock. But my comments have been directed at shooters in general
not anyone in particular. I am not here to put people down. If you read the worst recoil thread it is clear that many have been hurt by their guns even if temporarily.

Regards

Handipardner

dannytoro · « **Reply #73 on:** March 14, 2009, 03:23:03 PM »

...Well, I'd have to admit, I love my 300 & 338 Win Mags. I've thought long and hard about many of the other Magnum offerings. In ideal land, the 300 would handle the light to medium stuff, and the 338 the heavier stuff. I have used the 338 a lot less since both the 275 Grain Speer Semi spitzer and 300 grain Winchester RN have disappeared. Heck, I can load Wood Leigh 250 grains in my 300 and replicate what the 338 does now. If I bought a magnum out of need, it would be a .375, and it would be a 375 Weatherby to be exact. Kind of funny since they do not even chamber it in Weatherby regular production now. The reason being it has a definitive and usable edge over the H&H without the silliness of a 378 Weatherby. But alas, usable efficiency always loses out to slick marketing.

I've also been extremely close to plunking cash down on Remington 673 in 6.5 Rem Mag, like standing over the counter in a daze. Yet another "tweener" magnum tilted more toward utility. The only other magnum that came close to that attraction level was a few .257 Weatherby's that were available for a deal. If one had the 26" barrel, it probably would have had a new home.

handipardner · « **Reply #74 on:** March 14, 2009, 06:33:37 PM »

The bottom line is that many American hunters are choosing to purchase guns that by their own admission are extremely unpleasant to shoot and with which they cant shoot well. In addition there are no good shooting or hunting reasons in most cases that necessitate such evidently poor choices. Thats all that needs to be said.

dannytoro · « **Reply #75 on:** March 15, 2009, 02:51:00 AM »

That's true Handi, I know the grand sons love it when I take them hunting and let them use the 300 Win Mag. Little do they realize it's downloaded to 300 Savage velocities. They get a kick out of saying the hunt with a magnum. They really do not. Eventually they will learn though. I'd submit most new shooters would be best served by trying a chambering before they buy one. As other point out, many non-magnums are plenty for most game. In my experience though, a number of conditions make a magnum highly preferable. I occasionally get to hunt local bean fields with no good cover to allow close shots. In Labrador, there are a number of places where topography adds range dimensions or un-traversable impediments like bogs. Plus in Labrador, many common chambering can be considered "light". Each year we hear about hunters who have the tables turned on them by Moose up there. Not to mention the largest Black Bear on the continent. And plus the rare chance at wondering Polar Bears. Ever year the members of Nunatsiavut get a limited draw on Polar Bear licenses.

handipardner · « **Reply #76 on:** March 15, 2009, 05:58:12 AM »

Danny

Moose and polar bears you say how about lions?

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7076257

regards

Handi

handipardner · « **Reply #77 on:** March 15, 2009, 07:07:19 AM »

I know lions are wusses!! How about buffalo, lions and crocodiles? Whats enuf gun?

click on the HQ button on the video for higher quality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKpuSB4UjbU&annotation_id=annotation_520262&feature=iv

dannytoro · « **Reply #78 on:** March 15, 2009, 11:58:33 AM »

...I learned about old Water Buffalo as a child in the Phillipines.

They are not to be trifled with. A lot like Moose actually.....Treed hunters are nothing new to Newfoundland and Moose.....

handipardner · « **Reply #79 on:** March 16, 2009, 07:01:15 AM »

You know the world is coming to an end when events happen that are against the natural order of things.

In the thread below someone is claiming that a moose in Maine was killed with a 30-30 by a young hunter. Since we all know that is not

possible the magnum ammo manufacturers with the obama administration will be introducing the ILLEGAL BULLET ACT.

If an animal dies from a nonmagnum cartridge said animal and its decendants will be prosecuted for illegal death: the animal should have

known better. Anyone making claims that animals can be killed with nonmagnum cartridges will also be prosecuted!!! That will show them.

PLEASE WRITE TO YOUR CONGRESSMAN TO SUPPORT THIS BILL.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,168015.0.html

BCall · « **Reply #80 on:** March 16, 2009, 07:54:34 AM »

Quote from: dannytoro on March 14, 2009, 02:03:33 PM

Quote
.

...My current game getter is a 7.62 x 39, you can't get much more recoiless then that. I'm also quite fond of stealing the neighbor's "Walking Stick". A fine custom Kenny Jarret flyweight that barely cracks 5 pounds with scope. It's a .250 Savage. But I feel a bit silly with both of them. The Saiga is not too bad, but it is definitely a bit small for me. Hopefully this summer it will get adorned with a custom wooden stock of much longer pull. As a wide body ex-defensive tackle, I'm built like a Coke machine. I also spent decades using industrial rotary hammers anchoring machinery, so I'm fairly immune to shock. Although I'm a stickler for hearing protection. I do have a few guns people frequently want to fire, but quickly hand back. I'm also the usual suspect picked to fire the local buddy's Anti Tank Rifle when they do shows.

While being big might sound great, it comes with it's hurdles. People frequently shade under you. You learn your almost always alone in dark allies. You can't go to bars much, with out some drunk wanting to pick a fight with the big guy. During catastrophic events, some people hide behind you. Then again, after decades of strength training, and handling heavy industrial equipment, guns recoil is not usually an issue. But that does not mean I don't tell folks to shoot with a gun they enjoy and can master full control over. In fact I usual question if they really want to try firing some of my guns. It's a lot like eating really hot peppers. Some do it for the wrong reasons and regret it later.....And I hate hot peppers!!!!!

As a rather large ex-defensive lineman myself, I can relate how you feel. 6'5" and 340+ gets you alot of attention late at night in a bar. I however do not care much for recoil. Oh, I can handle pretty much anything that is handed to me, and shoot it with accuracy, but that does not make it enjoyable. My favorites are the 17's and 22 Hornet. Low noise, and no recoil makes them the most fun. After owning a 7-30 waters contender with a muzzlebrake, I think noise is as much of a factor as recoil. That muzzlebrake barrel was the most uncomfortable gun for me to shoot that I have ever owned. I can deal with the recoil, the noise-even with earplugs and muffs over them- was not something I could contend with. I got rid of it, and got one without a brake, and shoot it much better than the first one. I wonder how many people shoot for the first time without hearing protection, and then develop a flinch that is very hard to cure. I have taught several friends to shoot, and am working with my kids, and hearing protection is the first thing discussed, then safe handling is discussed before the gun is picked up. None of them flinch, and all are progressing to larger guns without problems. Of course, I love hot peppers, so I guess I just like my punishment in other forms.

Billy

handipardner · « **Reply #81 on:** March 18, 2009, 08:05:59 AM »

slugs and recoil from the gun nut blog: as far as I can tell the figures are for 12 guage slugs

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/ammunition/2009/03/bourjaily-bucking-slug-recoil

handipardner · « **Reply #82 on:** April 28, 2009, 09:30:07 AM »

http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/shooting-tips/2009/04/petzal-cautionary-hematoma-tale

hematoma and shooting arm damage from the gun nut blog.

a4beltfed2000 · « **Reply #83 on:** April 28, 2009, 11:42:16 AM »

depends on your idea of what you need/want in a gun. OK new guy here on the forum, so lets see if I can manage to get run off

, however I am neither new to handirifles or shooting and I do own a semiauto M2 hb .50 cal, I also own 2 1919a4 , a 1917a1 watercooled and a varity of other guns that many hunters and probably members here will frown upon.

However, NONE of these are used for hunting. I learned to hunt and shoot with a sears model 15 single shot .22 rifle, My father always taught me that if you couldn't shoot it in one shot then you don't have any business in shooting at it. In fact, I consider it a hunters responsiblity to be able to kill with one shot.

   We have over 1000 acres of public hunting ground that surrounds our property, and I shudder anytime I see someone pull out a semiauto high power rifle or pump shotgun. If hunting can't be done with one shot then, the animal should have the right to escape.

   I have taken 3 ferral pigs, 2 coyotes, and a deer with my 45/70 handirifle and prefer it over the dozen of other rifles that I have.

   However, twice a year I do go to a shoot in Minong Wi where a number of us (NFA, FFL holders AND SOTS) get together to shoot the big boy toys. There its just about having fun, making noise , spraying rounds, and desimating targets and yes its done in a safe controlled manner.

Jeff H · « **Reply #84 on:** April 28, 2009, 12:01:21 PM »

Quote from: canon6 on February 09, 2009, 07:19:09 AM

I have a very bad right shoulder and am very recoil senistive,that being said my ideal Handi would be a 6.5X55 Swed(rebore) 22inch barrel.4x fixed power scope,Limbsaver recoil pad, synthetic stocks, sling and buttstock ammo carrier.Weight should be around 7.5 to 7.75 pounds and a real pleasure to shoot. Just my 2c Doug

Shoulder and neck injuries dating from 30 years back and another recent neck injury on top of that.
That said - the 6.5x55 is my favorite, and probably would be even if I could manage more recoil.
.257 Roberts and the 7x57 are two others that suit my tastes and nerve endings.
I can handle any of these in a 6 to 7-pound rifle with a solid butt-plate (and a PAST shoulder pad for extended sessions at a bench).
Unless I go out of state, I can't hunt with a centerfire rifle except for varmints, but these three do quite well in that arena also.
The .35 Remington I want would be about as useful (in my state) as golfing - meaning it would serve to entertain me with no other especially "useful" purpose.
Not "dissing" golf, golfers or heavy-recoiling shoulder-arms.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #85 on:** April 29, 2009, 05:12:31 AM »

Just a reminder.........................

4000 foot pounds of energy is not firepower.

One hit is firepower.

handipardner · « **Reply #86 on:** April 29, 2009, 02:05:51 PM »

An article from guns and ammo magazine on just enough gun.

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Use+%2528Just%2529+Enough+Gun?packedargs=pagenum%3D1