Author Topic: neat stuff (Read 1812 times)

Owen · « **on:** February 08, 2009, 08:14:52 PM »

http://www.shorpy.com/node/5486?size=_original

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6foV4lmL4A

not sure if seen before ... sorry if it has

Owen

Ex 49'er · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2009, 09:25:18 PM »

Neat video and great picture. Enjoyed them very much. Thankyou for sharing.

Blaster · « **Reply #2 on:** February 09, 2009, 04:04:02 AM »

Owen, thanks for posting those. We enjoyed both of them but the youtube one was terrific. Shows what a plain old round of solid shot can do.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #3 on:** February 09, 2009, 04:33:28 AM »

I enjoyed both. The You Tube one I had seen before, but with CRS it's nice to see it again. The photo of the workshop was interesting. I wonder what OSHA would have to say about a shop like that?

RocklockI · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2009, 04:42:36 AM »

Yikes ! Remind me to not lose a shootout inside of a Man O War !

EL Caz 66 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 09, 2009, 04:48:10 AM »

Yeah that! thanks for sharing..

BoomLover · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2009, 06:41:32 AM »

Thanks, Owen, for the Shorpy site! Went to the Civil War page, 10 pages in all, lots of photos per page, and several of cannon! Very interesting! Good to bring into perspective what these big guns can do, besides make fire and smoke! BoomLover

Terry C. · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2009, 09:46:18 AM »

Check out this sign!

(go to "Full Size" and scroll to the top right hand corner)

Cannoneer · « **Reply #8 on:** February 09, 2009, 10:32:27 AM »

Quote from: Terry C. on February 09, 2009, 09:46:18 AM

Check out this sign!

(go to "Full Size" and scroll to the top right hand corner)

I hope that sign was either: A. Made out of lightweight material made to resemble iron, or B. Very securely attached to that bldg.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #9 on:** February 09, 2009, 10:53:38 AM »

Quote from: RocklockI on February 09, 2009, 04:42:36 AM

Yikes ! Remind me to not lose a shootout inside of a Man O War !

The design of 'armor' on boats was an active topic of discussion in the 1860's and later.

One interesting comparison was that with iron on the outside the wood on the inside would become projectiles, but with layers of wood on the outside, exploding projectiles would be reduced in effectiveness and the metal would be more effective. Noteably these would be used in the iron-clads.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #10 on:** February 09, 2009, 12:51:07 PM »

The following photo is for all the guys looking for a projectile supply. At first I didn't understand the brick "foundations" until I realized the men are salvaging bricks.

http://www.shorpy.com/confederate-arsenal-1865

This one should be of interest to those people that like mortars.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/2091?size=thumbnail

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #11 on:** February 10, 2009, 10:55:48 AM »

Thanks for posting these, Owen. Mike and I both agree that the Naval Ordnance shop looks just like ours. I mean the clutter, NOT the equipment! We visited the Erie Maritime Museum in Erie, Pennsylvania two years ago. The ship's hull that those National Guard troops fired at during this test of carronade VS ship was moved from one of the Army's firing ranges at Fort Indiantowngap, PA where the test took place, to the Museum and re-assembled carefully to show all the effects of the solid shot and grape shot they fired. It's quite a display, probably unique among the world's museums.

Artilleryman, Is that a 10" Seacoast Mortar, Model 1840 over on the right of that enlarged photo of Ft. Johnson, SC ? The photo was taken just after the fort was abandoned by the Confederates. Can you see how the braces on two of those wooden seacoast barbette carriages have been chopped by Confederate axemen? The flag flying on an improvised pole is a good indicator too.

That enlarged version of the Richmond Arsenal photo reveals something that I never saw before, the brick salvage or re-claiming operation. I know a bit about that work because I worked for many months doing that very job of chipping mortar off the bricks and sorting for damage after a hockey arena collapsed from 6 feet of Vermont snow on the roof. Those big stands of canister shot for maybe a 10" Columbiad are very interesting too. Kind of a cross-over, canister/grape-shot design?

Thank you gentlemen!

Tracy and Mike

Artilleryman · « **Reply #12 on:** February 10, 2009, 11:48:08 AM »

It appears to be a 10 inch Model 1840 to me. I have seen another photo that shows the same kind of cut on an abandon gun. I can't locate it though. I would have to say that the Confederates did it, and I wonder what else they did to the guns. They for sure spiked them the question would be what method did they used to do it?

The 10 inch grape stands were a surprise to me as well as what looks like 12 pdr grape which was considered obsolete. I can't imagine being on the recieving end of a round of 10 inch grape.

I to spent time as a teenager cleaning blocks and bricks for one of my dad's home improvement building projects.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #13 on:** February 10, 2009, 05:03:32 PM »

Artilleryman, Here is what we found in our Ft. Johnson Historical Photo file. Hope that one you remember is among these. Fort Johnson is loaded with historical significance, in both the Revolutionary War and the American Civil War. My family was on vacation in August of 2000 and we had just arrived at Fort Johnson on August 8th, a little before 8:30 AM, to find the spot where it all started, the 10" Mortar battery on the fort's East flank approx. 1 mile from Fort Sumter. I spotted a monument and was just taking a photo when a cannon-shot thundered across Charleston's outer harbor. The whole family sprinted for the dock where all the government employees from the Marine Research labs were heading. Through my binoculars, we saw that the CSS Hunley and her entombed 7 man crew had just been raised east south east of Sullivan's Island and was being loaded on a special barge to bring her to a conservation lab located in Charleston. She had not been seen for 136 years.

Several more "oldies" are displayed below, further illustrating the seacoast defenses of Ft. Johnson.

Regards, Tracy and Mike

I think this is the same gun, probably a rifled and banded 32 or 42 pdr. smoothbore cannon. Notice the tall front sight in another view. Is that a 32 pdr. Siege Howitzer on a two wheeled Siege Carriage in the background? Anybody know?

Another chopped carriage for a Confederate Columbiad. Looks like a 64 lb. or 84 lb. bolt for the conversion rifle with the long sight.

A little small, but you can see the rifle bolt ammo for the near gun and a Brooke 6.4" or 7" Double-Banded Rifle down the beach beyond the traverse.

Behind the double-banded Brooke lies these piles of bronze, ratchet sabot bolts; see the right hand pile-no provision for any fuse.

Double D · « **Reply #14 on:** February 10, 2009, 06:32:43 PM »

Glad I wasn't a Marine back then and had do amphibious assualt up that beach. Toughest duty I had was beach defenses at Ft. DeRussy during Vietnam.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2009, 06:25:16 AM »

Seacoastartillery the photo I think I remember was taken from a lower angle, but could very well be of these guns. The gun mounted on the siege carriage might be a 8 inch howizter. Smoothbore shot probably were meant to poke holes in wooden ships. Timed fuses wouldn't help unless the shell became lodged in a ship before exploding. Of course a lucky air burst might take out some critical piece of rigging. Considering the problems with time fuses they may have figured that was just a waste of time and material.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2009, 07:56:37 AM »

Artilleryman & Seacoast, here's another view of the remnants of the Richmond State Arsenal after the siege. I also found those grape stands interesting, there are some that are definitely for large bore guns, how large I can't gauge. The Ordnance Manual of the U.S. Army printed in 1862 contains a table for Grape-shot, and the largest bore listed is 8-inches. For the 8-inch grape stand the size of the balls are given as 3.54 in. - 3.60 in., with a mean weight of 6.1 lbs. This doesn't mean the CSA wasn't producing larger stands for land use, they did have 10 in. Naval grape stands, and the Federal Navy had 11 in. quilted stands using 6 lb shot for Dahlgren's XI-inch gun. I've seen sources that state grape stands were discontinued for field use in 1861 or 1862, being replaced by cannister, but evidently the CSA didn't follow the North's lead in this.

Here's a photo of the munitions depot on Morris Island in Charleston Harbor in South Carolina. Does anyone have any idea what those (I'm guessing tin or tinned iron) rectangular containers in the foreground are?

Artilleryman · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2009, 10:11:19 AM »

I believe the boxes in the foreground are individual rifle rounds. How did they get the round shot stacked so high?

GGaskill · « **Reply #18 on:** February 11, 2009, 12:41:49 PM »

How did they get the round shot stacked so high?

The bottom layer sinks into the ground so deep it won't roll.

dan610324 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 11, 2009, 01:17:03 PM »

or you have a 2x4 frame with rhe rigft size first on the ground

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #20 on:** February 11, 2009, 02:53:59 PM »

I'll bet someone built a device like a gin-pole to lift them up and swing around to the top of the stack.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2009, 03:53:32 PM »

Quote from: GGaskill on February 11, 2009, 12:41:49 PM

How did they get the round shot stacked so high?

The bottom layer sinks into the ground so deep it won't roll.

Quote from: dan610324 on February 11, 2009, 01:17:03 PM

or you have a 2x4 frame with rhe rigft size first on the ground

I was referring to the height.

Quote from: Cat Whisperer on February 11, 2009, 02:53:59 PM

I'll bet someone built a device like a gin-pole to lift them up and swing around to the top of the stack.

I haven't run across a description of that yet. They ususally describe just about everything that needs to be done in a manual.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2009, 06:09:31 PM »

Norm, I think your probably right about the boxes being containers for rifle bolts, that seems the most likely answer; to the right of the boxes are what appear to be stacked bolts.
When I first saw some of these photos I also wondered about the stacked shot, some of those stacks are pretty tall. Cat's idea is plausible; I've never seen a description of how it was done either, I wonder if a period photo exists that shows how the men nested the balls in the top rows?

Victor3 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:24:27 AM »

Now that's a machine shop.....

Where everyone knew who the most experienced men were by their eye patch, limp or missing fingers.

I like the video. Mostly we see what the cannon does from the firing crew's POV. Not often seen is what's happening on the receiving end.

I show my Son things like this whenever I find them this so he gets an idea of what really happens to people in war; more gory than glory

Artilleryman · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:14:10 AM »

Quote from: Boom J on February 11, 2009, 06:09:31 PM

Norm, I think your probably right about the boxes being containers for rifle bolts, that seems the most likely answer; to the right of the boxes are what appear to be stacked bolts.
When I first saw some of these photos I also wondered about the stacked shot, some of those stacks are pretty tall. Cat's idea is plausible; I've never seen a description of how it was done either, I wonder if a period photo exists that shows how the men nested the balls in the top rows?

There is a formula for calculating the number of rounds in a stack. I think I would rather count them as I shot them.

Blow the photo up and look at the size of the rifle bolts on the right in the back. Also smaller bolts in the back on the left.

The limber may be hooked up to a mortar wagon, hard to tell. I think the mortar on the ground is a 10 inch siege. I am still trying to figure out the type of cannon on the field carriage.

Terry C. · « **Reply #25 on:** February 12, 2009, 09:44:43 AM »

Quote from: Victor3 on February 12, 2009, 01:24:27 AM

Where everyone knew who the most experienced men were by their eye patch, limp or missing fingers.

Ah, I see you've met "Lucky."

Double D · « **Reply #26 on:** February 12, 2009, 11:03:58 AM »

Okay, just got the word, we all allowed to go int that yard and take what ever you want and can haul away in one day!!! Go for it...oh those drugs I am am taking after may knee exercise give you strange toughts.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #27 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:53:03 PM »

Quote from: Double D on February 12, 2009, 11:03:58 AM

Okay, just got the word, we all allowed to go int that yard and take what ever you want and can haul away in one day!!! Go for it...oh those drugs I am am taking after may knee exercise give you strange toughts.

WOW! (and I've been to one of your yard sales - I know the quality of stuff!)

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #28 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:54:35 PM »

Quote from: Artilleryman on February 12, 2009, 08:14:10 AM

Quote from: Boom J on February 11, 2009, 06:09:31 PM
...
Cat's idea is plausible; I've never seen a description of how it was done either, I wonder if a period photo exists that shows how the men nested the balls in the top rows?
...

And it is just that, an idea based on atmospheric extraction. But then there might just be ...

Folks looked at hard difficult grunt-labor jobs differently back then - they just did it! It might have been handed to the latest nationality of imigrant of the time.

Cannoneer · « **Reply #29 on:** February 13, 2009, 02:10:44 AM »

Quote from: Artilleryman on February 12, 2009, 08:14:10 AM

Quote from: Boom J on February 11, 2009, 06:09:31 PM
Norm, I think your probably right about the boxes being containers for rifle bolts, that seems the most likely answer; to the right of the boxes are what appear to be stacked bolts.
When I first saw some of these photos I also wondered about the stacked shot, some of those stacks are pretty tall. Cat's idea is plausible; I've never seen a description of how it was done either, I wonder if a period photo exists that shows how the men nested the balls in the top rows?

There is a formula for calculating the number of rounds in a stack. I think I would rather count them as I shot them.

Blow the photo up and look at the size of the rifle bolts on the right in the back. Also smaller bolts in the back on the left.

The limber may be hooked up to a mortar wagon, hard to tell. I think the mortar on the ground is a 10 inch siege. I am still trying to figure out the type of cannon on the field carriage.

Norm, I was googlin' around, and not only are there formulas for the stacks, where the first layer dictates the shape, height and exact number of shot, but it seems that profesors are using cannonball stacks as examples in college higher mathmatics classes. As for me, I'll go along with the sentiments expressed in the second sentence of your post.
I checked out the bolts, and you're probably right about the mortar being a 10-inch (could that be an 8-inch M1841). I can't really make out the field gun, but it appears to me to have a muzzle swell, could be a Napoleon.