fireforming

[bvb2508]

i went out today to shoot some coyotes and decided to take my 280ai handi because i needed some brass formed. i shot and missed so i reloaded and shot again but this time my gun popped open and part of the shell hit me in the face. turns out seperated the brass in half. it was pretty cold out so i was wandering if it that was why it separated? i have shot this factory ammo before and never had a problem but never in the cold . thanks for any help

[iiranger]

You say it was cold. Are you sure the gun was closed. -???-  Case separations are nothing to be taken lightly. If you have excessive headspace, it can be a killer. Killer. Please be extremely careful. My guess is that you may not have gotten the gun closed. Got grease in the locking mechanism? In the north country, reportedly, guns were degreased and used without lubricants until very recently. Lube would freeze and disable the gun.

If the gun pops open with the pressure in the case, this is very excessive headspace AND DANGEROUS. With the neck still clinging to the chamber and no support for the head, out it pops...

I would go over things very carefully and consult a gunsmith if you are "not sure" about anything. You might wish to degrease and relube with something the consistency of WD40, no heavier. For the cold. If the gun is locked and locking correctly... should work fine. luck.

[bvb2508]

ya i will be takeing it to a gun smith before shooting it again but i have put about a hundred rounds through it and never seen this before the gun was grease free.

[stimpylu32]

bvb

Sounds to me like a lock up problem not a headspace issue , being a Handi guy myself I know that sometimes I don't get the proper lock that I should , add the cold and gloves , give it a good once over at the reloading bench to make sure that it is clean and closing properly , then use a feeler guage to check your breach gap .

Should be no more that .002 , also drop a case in the chamber and with a strait edge check to see that you don't have a gap in your headspace .

stimpy 

[bvb2508]

well i pulled the barrel off to check the headspace gap and with the fireformed brass it is flush with the edge of the barrel but with the factory brass there is a gap. i don't know, is do to the ackley improved chambering or the brass is just forming to the chamber and that is why the factory has a gap. thanks guys as you can see i am pretty new to  this stuff

[bvb2508]

oh and the lock up was loose when i bought ibut i used the faq and shimed it up tight before this.

[torpedoman]

I'm not real sure but i don't think "fireforming" is recomended with a full power round, has something to do with causing unsafe chamber pressures. i use a half load of powder and cream of wheat to fireform. (just an old guy checking his memory banks)

[charles p]

I have a Mod 700 chambered in 280AI.  I have fireformed with toilet paper wadded into the case and a mag primer.  It does not form completely.  I have found that bullets are best.  Like the other guy said, a full load is not necessary.

[41 mag]

What the AI chambers are noted for is the fact of being able to use factory standard loads, which after firing are formed and ready to be reloaded. Any correct chambered AI round should be able to do this.

The issue is however, a lot of gunsmiths or wanna be's, will run an AI reamer into a standard chamber thinking this is all that has to be done, which results in excessive head space. Correctly headspaced AI chambers should still snugly hold the standard case at the datum line of the shoulder.

You should take your rifle to someone who is familiar with AI chambers and have them check the headspace. If I remember correctly, a specific no-go guage is used which is a couple of thousands short to properly gauge this. I have an aquaintance who learned the proper way of chambering from P.O. himself, and will check with him on it. I do however believe that yours is to deep from the way you describe the factory load fit.

[wncchester]

"...yours is to deep from the way you describe the factory load fit."

Yep.

[bvb2508]

i think you are right ,i bought the barrel off this site so i do not know who did this work but i have decided to just use the cream o wheat trick to fireform for saftey reasons.

[Steve P]

If you have a standard .280 barrel that has been opened up to AI, you HAVE to make your own ammo.  You cannot shoot factory .280.  Your chamber is too deep.  If you have been shooting factory ammo, use a paper clip to check your brass.  Open the paper clip up so you have a stiff wire with a half loop on the end to hold.  Run the tip of the wire up and down the inside of your brass case.  You can feel the tip of the wire vibrate as moves up and down.  If you feel a ridge or a rough spot part way down the side of your brass, crush that piece of brass and throw it away.  That is the beginning of a crack and head separation.

When you make your new to your gun original brass, you have to open the neck to about .308, then neck it back down to .284.  You have to leave a shoulder part way down the neck to keep the brass from seating too deep in your chamber. Your necked up brass should not fit in the chamber so you should not be able to close your action.   You set your sizing die with your chamber by slowly lowering the die 1/4 to 1/8th of a turn at a time and checking your brass fit.  When the case neck is sized just enough to allow your brass to go all the way into the chamber so you can finally close your action, that is your starting point.

Steve

[Darrell Davis]

Even'n shooters,

A PROPERLY (remember that word) reamed chamber, of any of the P.O Ackely "improved" cartridges is made to allow for the firing of factory or reloaded ammo of factory spects, to be safely and correctly fire formed in that chamber.

You do not need to fire form with less then factory pressure ammo!

30/06 in a 30/06 AI improved chamber, 243 Win. in a 243 AI improved chamber, 280 Rem. in a 280 AI improved chamber, 270 Win. in a 270 AI  improved chamber, 257 in a 257 AI improved chamber etc.

That is one of the major differences between "wildcat" and "improved" chambers.

On wildcats, 30 Gibbs for example, you must start with a case of larger neck size, such as a 35 Whelan for this 30/06 based wildcat,  ---- expand the neck of the 06 case to over size and then use the Gibbs die to size a false shoulder onto the expanded case neck - in the proper position, or do as follows.

By the way, Rocky Gibbs who lived and worked until the time of his death, resided about 45minutes from my home. So there have been lots of the different Gibbs rifles - all based on the 06 - in this area.

During my time with the 30 Gibbs, I would take 30/06 brass and long seat a bullet into the case.

By doing so, it forced the bullet into the lands and thereby held the head of the case firmly against the bolt face during firing - fire forming - and thereby prevented any head space issues during the first firing.

A proper type and amount of powder must be used during this process.

It is spoken of in writings about Rocky, of using factory ammo - without changing the bullet seating depth - to fire form brass to his 30 Gibbs cartridge.  Seems risky to me, but guess they did it with some success.

The chamber on my 30 Gibbs was cut long. Meaning the gunsmith IMPROPERLY allowed the chamber reamer to ream deeper then he should have, creating a longer head to shoulder length then is normal.

The fire formed rounds filled out nicely, creating for me and even greater powder capacity then the normal 30 Gibbs, but at the price of a shorter the normal neck.

I have never had problems with "short neck" cartridges and had none with this incorrectly chambered Gibbs.

So, back to the "improved" cartridges.

Properly done, an improved chamber will have a VERY SLIGHT"crush fit" when a factory or factory spec. round is chambered.  This will be between the bolt face and shoulder of the cartridge.

Any "improved" chamber which is cut deeper then this, has been too deeply and improperly reamed.

It can probably still be used, but steps must be taken during fire forming to prevent head space issues during the process.

AND, you take a risk when firing factory or factory spec. ammo in this  "IMPROPERLY" cut improved chamber.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[bvb2508]

well the problem has been identifed it was improperly cut. so i guess i will be fireforming using the cream of wheat and crisco method. oh and by the way i took it to the gun smith and he said it would be fine to use provided  i use the above method. thanks for all of your help! (lord knows i need it)

[Darrell Davis]

Welcome aboard bvb2508,

We are all in the learning process, inspite of how many years/rounds we may have handloaded.

So, don't stop learning and asking, as those of us who read these posts may learn something new from your questions and the answers which follow.

Also, you will hopefully get a number of answers from which you can usually sort out the strieght scoop.

Keep asking if the info is not clear and/or seems incorrect.

Sometimes an "E" directly to someone may also bring you a bit of One on One help for some question/problem.

And then there are always those of us who for one reason or another are able to state the info in a more clearly stated manner.

Keep em coming!

CDOC

[jelsr]

Fireforming factory loads in my 257 AI would leave the shoulder slightly rounded like a Weatherby but fireforming rounds made from mil 06 brass left sharp shoulders using 5 gr Bullseye, cream of wheat, and a dab of Dial handsoap (just push the neck into the soap and move to and fro to break it loose) Also made it smell good  :-)

[Lead pot]

You might also check your sizing die and make sure you are not pushing the shoulders back to far if your full length sizing the brass.
I have separated brass in my .22-250 from improper sizing die setting
You might take a felt marker and color your case shoulder and spin it in the chamber with a pencil eraser and see if your making full contact with the chamber and tale a depth Gage and see how far below the barrel end it is.
I'm not familiar with a handi rifle so I dont know if you can get a feeler Gage between the breach block and the barrel end to check what you have for head space.

Lp