Author Topic: Antler restrictions (Read 3303 times)

pa ridge-runner · « **on:** August 26, 2003, 02:20:41 AM »

Was wondering if any states have similar antler restriction laws as was enacted here in Pa in the 2002-2003 season.We must now take a buck that has at least 3 points to one side.No Y bucks or spikes.In western pa the rule is at least 4 to one side.This was enacted because the experts say that the deer herd in pa was lopsided with too many doe.Doe allocations have been a big part of this herd trimming too.Before this law came to be,90% of the antlered deer were yearlings.Thus alot of small deer taken.It is my opinion that this is helping drastically.I have seen more and larger deer so far than ever. Any comments?? :?

Cabin4 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 26, 2003, 04:57:02 AM »

PA Ridge,

I am not 100% sure that the outcome will be fewer doe's. I think the primary objective is to grow bigger more dominate bucks and whatever the outcome after that is anyone’s best educated guess. Perhaps their are theories on what the result of this will be based on other states but I am skeptical.

A bigger more dominate buck population infused into an over crowded doe population could spark other issues. Such as an increase in doe populations. I guess the theory is that the more dominate bucks will spend more time fighting during the rut and less time making babies with as many does as they can sweet talk. But I don't think this will happen unless they first really thin out the doe population. This way the bucks will have something to really fight for.

Even a dominate buck won't bother fighting to hard if he can have the run of an area and a less dominate buck will still have so many other doe's anyway.

As you can see I am not sure. What I do know is that I am perfectly fine with the PA deer situation as it is. Its pretty much meat herd and that’s OK with me. If I want a trophy, I will go to Illinois, Wisconsin, Iowa or whatever. We need meat herds in this country also so we have enough deer to keep the interest for all hunters in this state. Trying to turn the PA herd from a meat herd to a trophy herd, if successful has huge downsides including making it a rich mans sport. And on this point alone I am not in favor of it. I don't have anything against being rich, I just don't think it should be exclusive like it has become in some other states.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #2 on:** August 26, 2003, 06:37:11 AM »

Diffrent up here.
We have a bucks only season, with tags issued for does. Bucks must have a horn length of 3.5cm.
Havn't been able to get one to hold still for measuring yet!

Rick Teal · « **Reply #3 on:** August 26, 2003, 09:52:32 AM »

John made a little typo there. It's 7.5 cm or 3 inches.

Actually, up here, half our yearling bucks have 6 pints or more anyway, so this type of law wouldn't improve antler quality much. One of our guys once shot a 12 point yearling.

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** August 26, 2003, 09:59:09 AM »

pa ridge-runner: In New York I believe the buck has to have a minimum length of somewhere around 2". The horns must be clearly defined or you have to take it on an 'anterless' or doe permit. In NY we have a Northern Zone and a Southern Zone. You cannot take doe in the Northern Zone, unless you have a Landowner's Permit which allows one of either sex. In the Southern Zone you have to have a Doe Permit to take antlerless deer - you apply for one but do not always get it.

Some of our sorry-bassed hunters will shoot a yearling buck or 'button buck', just a little fella with nubbins and unless someone comes along to challenge the kill they will just wait for something else, not wanting to fill their big game tag with a small guy. I love finding these guys in the woods - a quick call to EnCon usually gets an EnCon Enforcement Officer out there pretty quick to settle the score. Sometimes the SOBs try and leave the area without the animal they've shot so as not to get caught or penalized. Man, lemme tell ya that if that happens and we don't see a hunting tag on the back of your jacket it will be a long time before you're back in the woods as they take your gun(s), vehicle and just about everything you own or have with you and make your wife come and bail your butt out of jail. Makes them think twice about irresponsible shots.

All that aside, we do have antler length limitations. Mikey.

Lee D. · « **Reply #5 on:** August 26, 2003, 10:25:24 AM »

In N.Y. a few years ago they started talking about setting up experimental Quality managment areas. The rule was going to be a 12" spread. I had some heated arguments over that one. About the dumbest idea I ever heard. The proponents of the rule said that it was easy to tell, somethings about ear size etc. That fall I measured every deer that I saw tagged and I am sure that there is no way an even better than aveerage hunter could have been right half the time. There would have been a lot of dead 11" deer laying in the mountains if they had tried it.
I would not mind a 4 point or better rule but a lot of meat hunters would really object. I don't mean to make that sound like I think they are wrong, just different points of view.
My group has pretty much complete control of 3,000 acres in the Catskills surrounded by thousands of acres of state land. I have been discouraging them from shooting small bucks for a few years now and last fall we killed 3 of the biggest bucks in 30 years. So it seems to be paying off. It also shows up on the surrounding land because we shoot no where near what the property produces.

longwinters · « **Reply #6 on:** August 26, 2003, 12:52:25 PM »

In Michigan we have some areas that are 3 pts on one side or better. We have been shooting does for years also. But if you want to cut down the doe population, bring in some wolves like Michigan did. In a few years you will wonder where all the deer went? :eek:

long

Cabin4 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 26, 2003, 01:10:12 PM »

Wolves !!!! Oh man please don't give the left wing liberal enviro waco nut cases any ideas for PA. That would be agreat idea for them to kill the deer hunting in this state. But fortuniatly they are almost non-exsistant here becasue of the shear number of hunters/shooters in PA. We keep them locked up in thier city apartments praying for the return of Stalin and Osama Bin Ladin.

pa ridge-runner · « **Reply #8 on:** August 26, 2003, 03:13:43 PM »

:-) Cabin 4,
I dont think Pennsylvania will become a trophy state in my lifetime.As far as meat,any avid hunter can obtain 2 or 3 doe permits if they so desire just by filing out the proper applications and mailing them at the right time.It would be nice to see more and larger bucks in the woods.I dont know what part of Pa your in but you will have to agree that the deer herd and hunting laws have changed quite a bit in the past few years.It will be interesting to see what the future holds,but I'm confident in what Gary Alt is doing.The deer in Pennsylvania have been un-managed for as long as I can remember and over-browsing has not helped.I live in the Pocono mtns and this area cant hold more deer.If you go anywhere in the forest, the browse line is very definate.I think all hunters want MORE deer,but healthy deer and a more balanced doe-to-buck ratio is what the "experts" say is needed.Time will tell....,but I do quite a bit of pre-season scouting and I'm amazed at all the 8 pointers I've seen so far.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 26, 2003, 04:20:40 PM »

PA Ridge Runner,

I live in eastern PA Montgomery county about 20 miles south of Allentown. This is a special regulation area 5c. I have 1 doe permit in the bag for 3c which is up your way Susqehanna county(spelling). I mailed in another app for an unsold which by looking at the stats on the PA Game Comish web site should be filled as well. My son also has one for 3c and another app in for another up there. Tommorow I will go to the Conty Tresurer Office and they are selling them unlimited over the counter for this area 5c !!!! I am going to get 6, 3 for me and 3 for my son. We have aton of deer down here and these tags will be good for the archary and slug gun season and if I get my act together, flint lock.

I hope your correct about the herd. It would be nice to see more 8 pointers. Maybe this will be a very good buck season with some good antlers out there.

Mu sister lives up your way in Pike County. They have some friends who have a farm and I'm trying to get my way in there for next year. Its loaded with deer and one with some good antlers.

We shall see.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2003, 01:05:03 AM »

Sorry Rick, I guess I'm never going to be Metrified. Regardless of the governments attempts.

grizzy57 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2003, 01:39:18 AM »

TOO LITTLE,TOO LATE!!!THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE THIS A LONG TIME AGO.
AS FAR AS BRINGING IN "WOLVES" THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT ! ONLY
THEY ARE CALLED "COYOTES" ABOUT 15 YEARS I WORKED WITH SOME GOOD "OLE BOYS" FROM" SNOWSHOE" THEY KILLED ONE THAT HAD A TAG
IN ITS EAR THAT WAS FROM "TEXAS" FIGURE THAT.
GRIZZY

Cabin4 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 27, 2003, 02:20:26 PM »

Well, went over the the county tresures office today and bought 6 doe tags for zone 5c in PA. 3 for me and 3 for my son. These are in addition to the 4 tags my sone and I have for zone 3c.

10 doe tags plus 2 bucks if all goes well. Should be plenty of meat.

Rummer · « **Reply #13 on:** August 27, 2003, 02:48:01 PM »

Hey Guys,

I understand the intent of the policy, but does anybody have any idea how the game commission will know when the policy has accomplioshed its goal (the goal being a "natural breeding ecology")? Or will this be like the "deer density goals" which the PGC abandoned in th early to mid 1990's becaue they were "arbitrary"?
John

Ron T. · « **Reply #14 on:** September 01, 2003, 06:20:28 PM »

Ive hunted deer in PENNSYLVANIA out of my hunting buddys cozy cabin in the Moshannon State Forest north of I-80 between DuBois and Clearfield for the past many years and I think what Gary Alt and the Pennsylvania Game Commission are doing is going to eventually improve the deer herd in general and the bucks antler size in particular.

Theyve not only restricted shooting bucks by making it a requirement that there must be AT LEAST 3 points on one side normally making the buck a 6-pointer (eastern count), but theyve increased the availability of doe permits which is resulting in more doe-deer being taken and which is bringing down the doe-deer numbers and should improve the buck/doe ratio. In addition, this will result in more food available for the surviving/remaining bucks through the winter and during the rest of the year.

Better nutrition results in bigger antlers and, generally, larger-bodied deer a WIN/WIN situation for both meat and trophy hunters.

In the past 5 years, Ive passed on a good many spike bucks that I could have easily (and legally) shot. Im holding out for at least a 10-pointer, but until the new rules went into effect, I felt there was VERY little chance of ever seeing a 10-point buck..

Now, with the 2nd year of the 3-points-per-side restriction upon us, I hope to see at least an 8-pointer this year and maybe just maybe a 10-pointer!!!

Personally, I believe the restriction will work EVENTUALLY. Meanwhile, Im paying over $100 (non-resident price of a deer license) a year for a license to relax in the Pennsylvania woods and enjoy the camaraderie of my best hunting buddy who owns the cabin, my two sons, my Godson and his father who is also a friend of mine. During that week, life couldnt be better.

Well.. um er.. mmm not better, that is, unless a 10-pointer decided to amble by my stand. :grin:

Strength & Honor

Ron T.

Cabin4 · « **Reply #15 on:** September 02, 2003, 12:45:23 AM »

Ron T,

Good luck on seeing that 10 pointer. This year will likly be your best opportunity. Someone else posted that they have seen more 8 pointers while doing some early season scouting this year than ever before.

This should be a good year for taking that trophy buck.

Cabin4

grizzy57 · « **Reply #16 on:** September 02, 2003, 01:51:40 AM »

Gentleman!

According to a recent issue of the PA game news, Gary Alt does not
work for the PGC any longer also according to them he quit . This man was
an EXPERT on the PA Black Bear. Thanks to his knowledge we have an
excellent Bear population.I hope what he started will be continued for years
to come.
Grizzy.

pa ridge-runner · « **Reply #17 on:** September 02, 2003, 07:52:47 AM »

Grizzy,
I certainly hope that Gary Alt didnt leave the pa game commission.I have talked with Gary many times over the years especially at the Shohola bear check station.He has done more for the Game comm. AND hunters than anyone ever has in this state.I think he will be sorly missed by many if this is true,(I'm not doubting your word,just hoping it isn't true).He is the brainchild of these new game laws and it was him basically that is (was?) sailing this vessel so to speak.I'm sure this must be breaking news because I havent heard this report yet.This man IS admired by most avid hunters in this state for the job he has done with bear management, and that is why the Game comm.put him in charge of the deer management.Not many Pa hunters could name one guy in Harrisburg,but all hunters here KNOW the name Gary Alt.I will have to say that a man with his brains is ,for sure,valuable elsewhere.I hope he isn't gone. :cry:

Cabin4 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02, 2003, 08:28:41 AM »

I would not surprise me at all that the good people in the PA Game Commision start leaving. With a Left Wing Liberal pig like Rendell as the Governor, he will start consoliding his power base and putting pressure on departments that he wants to "KILL". The Game Commision is part of his agenda. Rendell has commited to "KILL" em with gun control in the rural communities. Rendell ran on that theme. He called and categorized all of the people in rural and suburbam PA as walking maniacs with guns. He vowed to "KILL EM WITH GUN CONTROL". ALL this while he was Mayor of the 10th largest city in the US (Philly) and blamed all the gun violence in the city on the rural and suburban people. Forget about blaming the criminals, blame it on the hunters.

With all of this, people in droves in the rural and suburban area's voted this Elite Left Wing Liberal into office. He spitt in thier face, and they gave him thier vote !

Now this Gov is calling anyone with a firearm in PA "A potential Terrorist". Whats next with this agenda

?

Go figure ! We get what we deserve. A seathing, lying pig for a Gov. People who vote for these Democrate's are nuts. He is going to try and destroy anything that has to do with hunting, shooting and firearms ownership.

Fisher in 2006. Thats all I can say.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #19 on:** September 02, 2003, 11:31:57 AM »

You guys sure you're on the right side of the border? What your saying sounds awful familiar.

Rummer · « **Reply #20 on:** September 02, 2003, 12:13:23 PM »

Cabin4,

Could you please tell me when and where Rendell made the comment that every armed Pennsylvanian is a "potential terrorist"? I am not asking because I disbelieve you (quite the contrary), it is just that a work a lot of hours and I don't get as much news as I'd like.

Also, are you familiar with House Bill 1791 in the PA General Assembly? As of 1 July it was referred to the Judiciary committee. This is a "safety" bill mandating smart gun technology (that doesn't exist yet) for handguns, unless those guns are owned by the gov't.

Thanks in advance,
John

grizzy57 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2003, 01:30:41 AM »

PA Ridge Runner.

I understand what you are saying there were two articles!! One in the PA game news and one in the PA game and fish I can not tell you which issue because I send them to a friend out in TEXAS. IT was stated HE left because
of the HIGH ROLLERS and the SPORTSMAN GROUPS and all the blacklash he was recieving so I don't know.BUT they will have look long and hard to find
someone to replace him thats for sure. I don't know how true this is but they would not print something like that if there were not something behind it.
GRIZZY
:cry:

Cabin4 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 03, 2003, 03:03:21 AM »

Yes, we also have our communists being elected here in the states. Although thier battle to get rid of guns and hunting is a steep and very difficult climb that will necver be accomplished in thier or thier childrens lifetime, they are still trying to screw things up as much as they can. And screw it up they can do and Rendell is going to do his best to destroy the PA Game Commision so he can then blame it for all the problems that will arrise. The guy is truley a pandering left wing liberal pig that will do anything ! to advance the corrupt people controlling liberal agenda.

Unfortuniatly, it won't be untill things are so screwed up, that most people will then realize just what a huge mistake they have been making at the voting booth. By then it will be to late.

pa ridge-runner · « **Reply #23 on:** September 03, 2003, 04:37:15 AM »

Grizzy 57,
I have talked with a number of people about Gary Alt's departure(not).
no-one has heard anything saying he has quit!! I went as far as to call the Game comm.headqrs and they tell me that he has NOT quit.
Unless they are trying to cover-up something...I dont know...
If you go to thier website,Pa game comm.,there is nothing in thier press release's about him.
On the other hand,I dont like Rendell either,but I think that with the amount of clout hunters have in THIS state it will be a long row to hoe before he gets anywhere here.
"I WILL GIVE UP MY GUN WHEN THEY PRY MY COLD DEAD HANDS OFF OF IT" :x
This subject has really gotten some notice and I've enjoyed all the comments. THANX Pa ridge-runner

grizzy57 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 03, 2003, 05:12:45 AM »

PA Ridge Runner.
I didn't mean to upset anyone over this. Ihave been looking all over the place for something on this subject.. there is a little bit posted in LEADER
ENTERPRISE (Wolf Tracks by Dave Wolf???Outdoor Writer) From a Newspaper called The Lancaster Era the article is dated June 19. I have also
read something on this matter ..if you notice on the PA Game Commision site
there is nothing new listed about DR. GARY ALT only old stuff( 2002) so I don't know THIS is all that I will chase around on this subject.
GRIZZY

Ron T. · « **Reply #25 on:** September 06, 2003, 07:21:34 PM »

WOW!!! ... Gary Alt gone?!? An anti-gun Governor bent on blaming hunters and sportsmen for gun-crime?!?

You guys are SCARING me... and I'm "fearless"!!!

:cry:

Ron T.

John Y Cannuck · « **Reply #26 on:** September 07, 2003, 04:18:24 PM »

If you can solidly substatiate what you're saying, and be carefull, (you're in heavy duty littigation territory). It should be publicised widely. You CAN kick this kind of crap out of office.

turfman · « **Reply #27 on:** September 26, 2003, 01:31:03 AM »

Hi guys.

:? I Hunt below I 80 outside of punsxutawney. From what I see this year, I have to get 4 pts on a side. We usually get really nice deer on our spread anyhow; but this does limit the chances greatly. One thing I do see is the absence of the road hunters ( thank god ). I think the restrictions have gotten people off the bar stool and in to the woods again. Last year I got a beautiful 8pt that field dressed at 186lbs. Thats the biggest deer I've ever gotten and the biggest my group has seen in a long time. Also I don't see deer herds of 50 or 60 anymore; I just see pockets of 10 - 12. I think this is better; more food = big deer. So for me, the restrictions are an absolute change; but in my opinion I think the herd is getting better.

Also the Rendell thing. I think that the working man in this state still clings on to the notion that Democrats are for the common man. That might be true in some instances; but it sure isn't true for the common man with a gun.

Turfman.

X-Ring · « **Reply #28 on:** December 16, 2003, 02:43:14 AM »

Well 3 days after the deer season has ended. As I walked around where I live here in westmoreland county I have found 3 sub legal bucks and 7 does that were shot to rot, probley because the "hunters" didn't want to cross the creek and get their $200.00 boots wet. All these deer were found on public land, that makes it hard to tell if it was locals or the suburan invaders (that are the majority). I don't see how these restrictions are going to work with such sportsman in the woods. The only good I can see so far is the coyotes and foxes are healthy, fat and have nice coats.

turfman · « **Reply #29 on:** December 31, 2003, 01:43:59 PM »

:-D Well how did you guys do.

We didn't do all that well; but I got another 8pt this year. Not as big as last year bit still 17inside spread. I hunted the entire 1st week of buck and saw 16 different buck,( Yes, Different Buck ). There did not seem to be as big of harvest this year as recent memory; but most of what I saw were very nice sized. There was a guy in Brockway that shot a 11 pt that had a 25in inside spread. Hunted the 1st week of muzzleloader; well just got back today. Lots of horns still out there; Got a big doe on friday.

I see lots of doe this year, and am wondering if they will increase the tags for doe next year. I think there are to many in our area.

Hope you guys did well.

turfman