Author Topic: I am now officially stumped about my new Handi. (Read 1213 times)

Bogie · « **on:** January 21, 2009, 08:50:12 AM »

A little while ago I got a new handi in .22 hornet and this thing just has me puzzled beyond belief. First off let me say I am not new to shooting but I am new to the Handi. Here is my dilema. I cleaned my gun from new shot a couple shots, cleaned it again so on etc........put about 50 rounds through it. The problem I am having is just when I think I have this thing dialed in, it shoots somewhere else. Yesterday I took it to the range again to try differenet ammo. First two shots at 50 yards both in the bull maybe `1/4" apart.
I then take it to the 100 yard range, first shot 3" left, next shot right in the bull, next three shots were a good 3-4" right, but in a somewhat decent group ( 1"). Next shot in the bull. This is the same thing it did last week. I was leaving the barrel cool down and not shooting more than 2-3 shots in a string. I tried 45 grain soft point Winchesters, 45 grain soft Point PRvi Partizan and the 35 grain v-max hornady. The 35 grain were all over the place, the prvi partizan seemed to group the nicest, but then it would shoot way left or way right.
I am shooting from a rest that is stable as can be, I even dialed two other rifles in that day with no problem, but for some reason I can not get this handi to consistantly shoot and stay there.
For you guys with the experience on these, what do you think? Would that washer trick you guys speak of work, or what would you suggest.......................I am starting to regret buying this after reading how accurate they were.

Spanky · « **Reply #1 on:** January 21, 2009, 08:57:50 AM »

Which Hornet do you have?
standard contour? superlight?
Do you have a scope on it?
If so... Is the base tight? Are the rings tight?
Is the latch shelf clean and dry?

Give us some more info. and we'll try to help.

Spanky

Bogie · « **Reply #2 on:** January 21, 2009, 09:05:20 AM »

I have the synthetic standard hornet. It isn't the superlight. I had the scope professionaly mounted and bore sighted, I checked the tightness on all of that and it's tight. At first I was thinking scope also, but it will sometimes shoot dead on, and when it shoots off, it can sometimes even group ok, that is the weird thing about it.
As far as the latch shelf, I am not sure what that is, if it is the area around where I put the round into the chamber, yes I wipe that down and it is dry.
Thanks for your help.

Spanky · « **Reply #3 on:** January 21, 2009, 09:21:56 AM »

I just read your old posts and it says you have extra high rings on your Handi.
Alot of times it's really hard to get a good cheek weld with x-high rings and you end up with your face almost off the stock.
It might be as simple as that. you need to have a good solid cheek weld to shoot consistently and accurately.
If you still have clearance between the hammer and your scope, you might consider using some lower rings.
Lower rings will get your face back down onto the stock and might help you shoot more consistenly.

I used to have a 4-12 Bushnell on my Hornet and it was mounted in x-high rings.
I couldn't shoot groups to save my life with it because I couldn't get my face down onto the stock.
I switched scopes to a fixed 4x using medium rings and now it's a great shooter.
I can get down onto the stock and sight properly and shoot it well.

If you can't sight well, you can't shoot well.

FYI.. When you open your rifle to chamber a round look down past the chamber (the hole) and you will see a flat area shaped like a small shelf. that is the latch shelf. You need to keep that clean and dry.

I hope this helps some.

Spanky

Bogie · « **Reply #4 on:** January 21, 2009, 09:55:13 AM »

Spanky, thanks for the feedback.
You are right I do have the exta high rings only because that is the only thing that would allow my scope to clear. I have one of the Choate stocks on order with the extra high cheek piece to help get my cheek back up. Do you think that will help? I am using a 4x16x40 scope because this was going to be my go to fox/varmint gun, again that is why accuracy is so importan to me. I am very concious of keeping my head planted when shooting, but perhaps you are right and maybe another stock would help.

What factory ammo did you find worked best in your hornet?

Graybeard · « **Reply #5 on:** January 21, 2009, 10:18:44 AM »

I'm not a handi-holic like these guys are and don't use a scope on the two I own only factory irons. Still I have put in my time with TCs which are also break open guns and switch barrel as many do with their handis.

When a gun displays the characteristics you say you are getting tho from my personal experience I generally think of two most likely culprits. The first is always the optics on it. Perhaps a defective scope or one mounted with something allowing it to move around. When someone says they had it "professionally mounted" that always runs up the red flags for me as I've seen too many severely botched "professionally mounted" scope jobs. Usually that means some low paid employee who thinks they are a gunsmith puts them on in a gunshop and seldom do they do it properly.

The other thing I think of in such cases is a bedding problem. With the bolt guns I am most familiar with that often is the case and the bedding of fore end also was at times a problem with the TCs and from what I read here is with the handis as well. They can be rather sensitive to where you place them on the forward rest same as TCs were.

I would agree with the previous comment tho that if you do not have a good solid cheek weld on stock you are asking for accuracy problems.

I'd check out those in that order. I'd pull the scope and redo it myself making sure to use blue loc-tite on the base screws and make sure they are not bottoming out rather than tightening the base solidly to the barrel. Do NOT loc-tite the ring screws.

trapdoor45 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 21, 2009, 10:25:14 AM »

Bogie

Your problem seems to be similar to mine. My Handi has the .223, .44 Mag, & 45-70. The .44 Mag and the 45-70 shoot very well. The .44 Mag will group 1" @ 50 yds consistently with a scope.

The .223 is another story. I have gone through 2 barrels, two receivers, two fore-ends (one carved to float the fore-end), and three scopes. The last time I shot it, it grouped 5 1/2" @ 100 yds (5 shots) with a clean barrel. The next three shot group was 1 1/8", and the following shots were some sort of loose pattern. I even machined a spacer so that the fore-end could be tightened consistently (not "snug").

One area that caused a problem was the use of a bore cleaner at the range during the early shooting sessions. The cleaner that I used was Remington Bore Bright. The zero would move as much as 12" with a clean barrel and the zero would not return. I found that dry swabbing after cleaning and using gun oil before shooting again would eliminate the problem (mostly - zero is relative).

I finally retired the barrel. One thing that I found was that H&R will work with you to resolve problems to the best of their ability including swapping barrels, or, in my case swaping receivers as well. They are a part of Remington now and ( I believe) are located in New York State.

Trapdoor

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** January 21, 2009, 10:38:08 AM »

H&R's standard of accuracy is 2" or less, 3-shot groups at 100yds with factory ammo, with a little forend workend work, most will cut groups to half that or more, but the number one reason for accuracy complaints reported by H&R gunsmiths is oil on the latch and/or latch shelf, keep those clean and dry and you'll improve accuracy, read the Handi Basics 101 and follow the advice given, if that doesn't help, contact H&R in Madison toll free at (866)776-9292 and make arrangements to have it sent in on their dime for repair. H&R customer service is in Madison NC, manufacturing and repair is in Ilion NY. BTW, if the trigger is heavy, ask for a free trigger job while it's there, they'll reduce it to about 3½lbs.

Tim

Bogie · « **Reply #8 on:** January 21, 2009, 11:27:27 AM »

Hey Quick,

By chance do you have a picture of the area you spoke about that should be dry? I want to make sure I am looking at the right spot. When I open the barrel, there is a piece of metal that pulls the casing out somewhat. That hole area around the chamber etc........I keep dry, but I am thinking that must not be what you are talking about because I don't see how that would effect accuracy?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** January 21, 2009, 11:32:09 AM »

The part that pulls the case out of the chamber is the ejector or extractor, the shelf is directly below that, the latch is the part that moves when you push the barrel release and swings out of the way to allow the barrel to drop open, both of those parts must be clean and dry.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #10 on:** January 21, 2009, 11:38:19 AM »

I'll see if I can get you a pic. But in the mean time maybe a better explanations...

Remove your barrel and turn the frame so that IF THE BARREL was on it would be pointing at your abdomen. Mow depress the barrel release, see that silver part inside, under the fireing pin hole move? That is your latch, make the top and underside clean and oil free. Now get your barrel. See the angled "lug" at the opposite end from the half moon hinge? That is where the latch engages the barrel. Make that clean and oil free...

Hope that better explains what we are speaking about.

CW

Bogie · « **Reply #11 on:** January 21, 2009, 11:50:23 AM »

Ok, I see the part you are talking about, but how does that effect accuracy? Mine did have a little gritty oil on it, but I wouldn't ever think that would effect it?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #12 on:** January 21, 2009, 12:01:50 PM »

Quote from: Bogie on January 21, 2009, 11:50:23 AM

OK, I see the part you are talking about, but how does that effect accuracy? Mine did have a little gritty oil on it, but I wouldn't ever think that would effect it?

The presents of oil causes inconsistent lockups, as in ALL shooting... Consistency is KEY to good shooting and good shots.

CW

Bogie · « **Reply #13 on:** January 21, 2009, 12:15:40 PM »

CW,

I saw in some of your old posts about you finding accuracy being better if the forend is not too tight. I tried to remove mine and it is so tight I can't budge it, maybe that is an issue. I tried to remove it to look at this washer idea I keep reading about.(free floating the barrell) How do I remove the barrel by the way?

cwlongshot · « **Reply #14 on:** January 21, 2009, 12:39:19 PM »

Remove the forend screw and forend. Depress the barrel release and the barrel will come right off the receiver.

It sounds like the forend IS too tite. Go slow when relieving it as its done by feel and with your experience with handis, you done have anything to go by. But it should be easily removable without falling off by itself.

CW

Jimbo47 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 21, 2009, 01:06:12 PM »

Yep, that is definately the problem.

Think of that barrel as a tunning fork.

Being too tight it won't resonate at all and will act on any slight pressure applied to it from any outside sorce such as a hand or the rest and add in the weight of the rifle, and you pretty much will hit anywhere.

dw06 · « **Reply #16 on:** January 21, 2009, 02:47:08 PM »

Quote from: Bogie on January 21, 2009, 12:15:40 PM

CW,

I saw in some of your old posts about you finding accuracy being better if the forend is not too tight. I tried to remove mine and it is so tight I can't budge it, maybe that is an issue. I tried to remove it to look at this washer idea I keep reading about.(free floating the barrell) How do I remove the barrel by the way?

Glad you mentioned that Bogie, I know Quick uses a tool to put his at so many inch pounds? He will explain it better than I can. Mine both have the o-rings in them, and they both shoot best for me by running the screw in and after it makes contact I turn it 1/8-1/4 turn. Don't have any idea what it would be in inch lbs but they both shoot 1/2 to 3/4 groups at 100 yards set like that. I have tightened them down and shot and groups were larger. Least thats what works for me.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #17 on:** January 21, 2009, 02:51:47 PM »

24/25INCH pounds is the magic number...

But more important than that number.. CONSISTANCY is key!!

CW

SM Bob · « **Reply #18 on:** January 21, 2009, 04:08:06 PM »

Bogie,
I know it has been said before, but definitely check the FAQ's
here. I have had the best results bedding the forend with RTV
as described in the FAQ's. I have a set of medium rings on my
Hornet. If you have to grind the hammer and hammer extention
a little with the dremel to clear the scope it's no big deal. If it
were my rifle I would bed the forend and do a trigger job per the
FAQ's, then get a set of medium rings. Make sure your base is
loctited and tight. Then mount your rings with Loctite and tighten
everything down and give it a try. I bet you will see a big
improvement. My Hornet is one of my most accurate rifles.
It will consistently shoot under 1" groups at 100 yards.

Robert

JonD. · « **Reply #19 on:** January 22, 2009, 07:51:00 AM »

Quote from: Bogie on January 21, 2009, 12:15:40 PM

CW,

I saw in some of your old posts about you finding accuracy being better if the forend is not too tight. I tried to remove mine and it is so tight I can't budge it, maybe that is an issue. I tried to remove it to look at this washer idea I keep reading about.(free floating the barrell) How do I remove the barrel by the way?

My daughters superlite/youth/compact .223 Handi (whichever you want to call it) had a very tight forend screw from the factory. It was like you said almost so tight I couldn' loosen it with a screwdriver. When I started with it, it shot "groups" anywhere from 4" to 6" @ 100. After loosening the forend screw and using a torque adjustable screwdriver on the lowest setting each time, it came in to about 1 1/2--2" groups( at the same time I found that an older scope that I had on it was bad. I could sight in, put the gun away, get it back out and shoot, and it would be way off) After reading the FaQ's and applying the o-ring tip along with the above screwdriver trick,(and a new scope) it now shoots about 3/4" @100 which is half decent for a .22 caliber, but considering what it started out with, it's great.