toughest sporting bolt-action

[mushroom]

Most of my experience with bolt-actions has been with Remingtons.  I've never a problem with one.  Nevertheless, I've always questioned whether they would hold up over the long haul.    

What is the most durable B/A in your experience?  I'm not talking about whether it is stainless or has a laminate stock.  I am wondering which rifle holds up the best after thousands of rounds and which one is least likely to fail under adverse field conditions?

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Military surplus bolt rifles come to mind first-------Commercial guns??---seem pretty much the same in that respect.

[targshooter]

Mushroom,
I have a Ruger Model 77 stainless synthetic (the old "ugly" stock) that has seen about 1,000 rounds and spent a lot of time tethered to a backpack and afield in all kinds of weather. It wears a peep sight made by New England Custom Gun which attaches to the scope mounts. I am talking about a week or more in a tent and afield at a stretch. There has been no rust, no function problems and no sudden changes in point of impact. This is a very durable and field service worthy firearm. I wonder if the new Ruger stock is as indestructible as this one?

[wallynut]

Mushroom,

   Your kinda asking a loaded question (pun intended).  All the major companies producing bolt actions make fine weapons.  That is what is nice, the consumer has great choices that can be decided by personal preferences to certain features that are unique to each gun.  You do get what you pay for, but I wouldn't ever think of NOT using a Savage because it is cheaper in cost, nor would I opt for a Weatherby or other expensive rifle, thinking that it is better because it cost more.  I've yet to see where a Winchester barrel lasted longer then a Remington barrel.  Now you may read, or find in actual use, that certain calibers may wear out a barrel faster, but never that one production manufactor is better then the next (till you get to custom guns)

If your looking for a new rifle for such extreme use, you will need to look over the features of each rifle.  Personally, I'm fine with plastic/fiberglass stocks, but don't have much faith in plastic being used in other parts of rifles.  Case in point, I have a Remington model 78 in 270, nice no frills rifle, but I don't like the plastic triggerguard or rear site base.  

You would do well to list what it is your looking for, feature wise.  I don't believe in the "this is the only rifle to own" theory.  How a rifle stock fits can lead to many debates.  I can't stand Remington''s stock design on a whole, but for the next guy it could be perfect.  Do you get where I'm lead ya?

[mushroom]

Wally, I hear what you're saying.  I'm not really looking for the ultimate rifle.  I had actually been thinking about buying a milsurp Enfield for its durability, but the caliber that I want is something in the .243 range.  I'm just wondering if there is one commercial rifle that has a better record of durability than the others.  

And thanks for the feedback, guys.  All your views and info are appreciated.  I saw one of those "ugly" Rugers on the used rack at the gunshop the other day.  I may have to go back and take another look.

[Dave in WV]

I've got one of those "ugly" Ruger Stainless M77s in .243. Even before the trigger job it would shoot 1" three shot groups with Rem 100gr corelokts at 100 yds. I took the recoil pad off and installed an aluminum plate on the butt for a 13" LOP. I also took off the factory sling swivels, installed Uncle Mike's QD swivel studs, and gave the barrel a "brushed" look with a synthetic sanding pad. I can't speak for the new synthetic factory stock but the old "ugly" stock is very tough. One thing going for the "ugly" stocks ..... you can't hurt their looks.  :-D  Dave

[targshooter]

The factory sling rings are noisy if there is no sling installed, especially in cold weather. As I always have a leather sling on the rifle, I never was troubled by the noise of the rings agianst the stock, but it is a factor. As for indestructible, this stock has taken falls on the ice that would have broken any other stock I own, and it never budged. I was never really bothered by its appearance, but when compared against the new Ruger synthetic stock, it is ugly. The only other synthetic I own is a Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H, and its stock is not as nice looking as the new Ruger, but it is better to look upon than the old Ruger. I do wonder if these stocks could take the falls and bangs the Ruger has taken.

[Mikey]

Mushroom:  if you are looking for a strong action that will hold together for just about ever, and have thought about an Enfield (P-14 or P-17) action you are thinking right.  You could probably do just as well with a Yugo 48/48A Mauser with a barrel change and have something that would give you whatever you might ask for from a 243, and survive a fall from a 100' cliff in addition to being able to be passed on down to your grandchildren.  However, if the Yugo shoots well, you may just want to keep it in its original chambering and use that.  Just another 2 centavos - Mikey.

[Sensei]

Mushroom,
I have a Ruger Model 77 stainless synthetic (the old "ugly" stock) that has seen about 1,000 rounds and spent a lot of time tethered to a backpack and afield in all kinds of weather. It wears a peep sight made by New England Custom Gun which attaches to the scope mounts. I am talking about a week or more in a tent and afield at a stretch. There has been no rust, no function problems and no sudden changes in point of impact. This is a very durable and field service worthy firearm. I wonder if the new Ruger stock is as indestructible as this one?

I doubt the new stock is as indestructible as the (Oldie but not forgotten Goodie)!  I have a Ruger M-77. 7MM  Mag. Stainless with the old style stock as well with a Leopold. 3 x 9 v-x III Scope on it. I love it. It groups great! less than an inch at 100 + yards. Ranges are endless. I would take it ballisticly over a 300 Win. Mag. any time. Personal Preference. So much for what I think?  I agree,.. no rust, no problems and it has been tried and field-tested. It has preformed very well in extreme conditions. (I have heard it makes a great boat paddle too if needed). LOL.. I don’t wan’t to find out about that, but you never know how handy that might be if you really needed it! )

[savageT]

mushroom,
I'll go along with Mikey's recommendation on P14-M17 Enfields.  Whether or not you wish to lug around all that hardware is another issue?  If you decide on an Enfield in .303, I would think it would work fine.  It has all the knock-down you will ever need for hunting on this side of the border.....hell, north or south of the Great Lakes!  Just ask Kevin.303. Now, if you want something a little bit tamer....as in .243, I have this soft spot in my heart for Savage 99's....but certainly any of the newer Savage bolt-actions will work well for a lifetime of dependable service...Period.  May not be the prettiest, or the liquid-smoothest bolt action, but the present day Savage line cannot be beat for the dollar.  Thats what an old man who watches his bucks pretty close has to say..................You Betcha!
P.S. Check out this site.....for Enfield rebuilds
http://www.gibbsrifle.com/

Jim

[spitpatch]

Mushroom
 I believe Ohama BeenGlockin"s on the right track with the Military Surplus thing. A good all around cal. would have to be .308. Little bigger bullet than .243 but, if you don't mind, it don't matter. Battle rifles ARE tough!

[coltpython]

I have a M77 30-06 with the "old ugly stock". I like it. I even looked around until I found a 10/22 with the same stock for my son. His gun looks like dad's gun. My '06 has shot .4" groups @ 100 yds with cast bullets. No trigger work or anything, straight from the store.

[RoyB]

My vote goes for the Winchester Model 70 Classic. Just about the whole rifle can be disassembled with a pocket knife. The bolt is as simple as can be and can be field stripped without any tools whatsoever. The trigger is completely exposed and therefore, very servicable. The stainless synthetic version is just about zero mainenance. The Winchester Model 70 Classis is simply an old military rifle built with modern materials and technics. Can't be beat for a hunting rifle........as Jack O'Connor said "The rifleman's rifle!"

[dave375hh]

The toughest Bolt gun ever was the Jap Arisakia type 38 (6.5X50). P.O. Ackley did blow-up tests back in the 50's. his final attempt to blow-up a t-38 he stuck two 160gr bullets in the barrel and fired the gun with a rope. The action held and after beating it open with a hammer the headspace was still within limits.

   My vote for a commerical action would be the Weatherby MK5. Their owners have been known to creat some really stupid loads without blowing the action. Weatherby's 'smiths have reported loads estimated in the 150,000 psi range that their actions have survived. These were guns sent back to Wby because the owners couldn't open the bolt after firing the reloads they sent with the guns. Like swiching 3031 for 4831 or some such screw-up, they didn't elaborate.

[Lawdog]

I have to agree with 'dave375hh' about the Weatherby Mark V action.  At a rating of 200,000 psi(guaranteed) it's about the strongest action you can get.  But they do cost.  But if what you're looking for a solid short action for a .243 type cartridge why not locate a good civilian Mauser 98 short action.  They have worked for many a year for about every cartridge you can think of.  Solid, dependable and built to last.  Lawdog

[PaulS]

I know that this isn't going to make any difference to anybody's opinion but here is something to think about:

aside from the actual process of machining a cylindrical action (Remington) and the processes of machining the forged itegral lug action (Weatherby) the grain flow on the forging is into the lug area taking the axial strength from the actual locking area of the action (R+ W-)

Extraction setback:
(R+) .09"
(W-) .08"

extraction leverage:
(R+) 8.5:1
(W-) 7.5:1

Chambering:
cam forward:
(R+) .13"
(W-) .08

Closing leverage:
(R-) 8:1
(W+) 10.5:1

Bolt travel:
(R+) 4.84"
(W-) 4.51"

operating forces:
bolt lift (fired + empty)
(R+) 4.5 lb.
(W-) 10 lb.

bolt turndown (cocking empty):
(R-) 7.5 lb.
(W+) 7 lb.

Lock time:
(R+) .003 sec.
(W-) .0036 sec

firing pin hole diameter tolerance:
(R+) .075 - .078 "
(W-) .077 - .082 "

Overall length of action:
(R+) 8.89" (with lug)
(W-) 9.0"

ring diameter:
(R+) 1.355"
(W-) 1.335"

receiver/barrel engagement: Same thread size and pitch)
(R+) .69" (11 threads)
(W-) .53" (8.5 threads)

Bolt diameter:
(R+) .697
(W-) .839

bolt lug shear area:
(R+) .428sq"
(W-) .342sq"

bolt face counterbore depth:
(R+) .149
(W-) .120


From this information I would look at the Remington as the stronger of the two actions (13:2). The Remington has more conection between the barrel and action - a deeper counterbore - more lug area and is fitted into a larger diameter, shorter action with a smaller diameter bolt which leaves more material to stiffen the action. The Remington is also the lighter of the two inspite of it's advantages. The manufacturing processes allow the Remington to be made less expensively and so the cost to the consumer is less.

Both of these weapons are more than strong enough to handle any modern ammo that can be made to chamber in their actions but the stronger of them? Without quantifiable testing to the point of failure its a matter of belief.


PaulS

[HHI #4694]

Yes, but Remington silver solders the bolt handle. :shock:

[retiree]

Unless they have changed, and I don't believe they have-as Pacymeyr does silver-soldering(plus socket head screws) as part of their Remington bolt upgrade.  Remington BRAZES their bolt handles on.  Now brazing is nowhere as strong as silver-soldering and I have PERSONALLY had two of them come off in my hand; one from a first shot on a 40XB and the other after 600 rounds on a regular 700.  I am NOT a bolt handle slammer and I would only have a remington as a tactical gun if at least the screws were added to the bolt root.
My personal pick on the strongest and smoothest production action is the Sako TRG42 action.  After all it has to reign in the hottest .338 going; the Lapua Mag.

[HHI #4694]

In either the Otteson or DeHass book on the history of modern bolt actions, it says Remington silver solders the bolt handles. Perhaps they have since changed the process.

[retiree]

I would say that they changed their method, due to the failure rate.  Both of my problem occurred during the late 1970's, but I have read more than once (back then) that Rem. brazed the handles.  Go to Pachmeyr's web site and check on their accurizing package.  You will find that it includes silver-soldering the bolt handle(along with drilling and tapping several grade 8 screws).  Perhaps this is to fix any of the older models that were brazed.   I am a retired machinist and I certainly know the difference between brazing and silver-soldering (I've done both many times myself).  Silver-soldering is a bit more difficult (and material costly). Both of the two that broke on me were brazed.  As an aside, they returned someone else's rifle (not even the same model) when they returned the second one, which required another 6 weeks to clear up.

[Lawdog]

retiree,

My gunsmith friend confirms the fact the Remington brazes their bolt handles on.  He says that almost half of his business is due to fixing Remington's.  When a customer asks him to about an action for a custom rifle he tells them that between that hideous safety, worthless trigger, brazed on bolt handle and declining quality of Remington products he in all good faith can't recommend them.  I am with you as Remington is the last action I would call strong.  Lawdog

[HHI #4694]

I am no big Remington fan myself. According to the American Custom Rifle Guild, Winchester and Mauser are the actions most used in the building of fine custom rifles. Remington is a close second among accuracy gunsmiths. After Remington, Sako (pre model 75) actions are in third place. The least used actions are the Savage and Weatherbys among a few others.

According to several noted books, the Weatherby Mark V is the toughest action in terms of being able to handle severe overloads, followed closely by Remington.

[PaulS]

Ok then, there is a lot of mis-information here about the Remington bolt here are the facts:

silver soldering is a form of brazing

The bolt is furnace brazed (with copper alloy) together from five sub-assemblies. The copper alloy is stronger than the silver/ tin and is unaffected by later heat treating.
The bolt head, which is a machined piece from chrome-moly bar stock with integral lugs. There is no sacrifice in locking strength as a result. A bushing and pin that assure the lugs engage even if the brazing should fail, and act as a stop for the firing pin. The handle is the last piece that comes together on the bolt barrel.

When you look at the firing line at the local gun club during a match what actions do you see there?

[thecowboyace]

Ok then, there is a lot of mis-information here about the Remington bolt here are the facts:
silver soldering is a form of brazing
The bolt is furnace brazed (with copper alloy) together from five sub-assemblies. The copper alloy is stronger than the silver/ tin and is unaffected by later heat treating.
The bolt head, which is a machined piece from chrome-moly bar stock with integral lugs. There is no sacrifice in locking strength as a result. A bushing and pin that assure the lugs engage even if the brazing should fail, and act as a stop for the firing pin. The handle is the last piece that comes together on the bolt barrel.
When you look at the firing line at the local gun club during a match what actions do you see there?

Smart aleck, ain't 'cha!

[HHI #4694]

Thanks Paul, I knowed I was right but I didn't want to start an argument

By the way, here is some interesting info. According to Nosler, the strongest bolt action made is the NULA action built by Melvin Forbes. The claim they will handle proof loads that will destroy any other commercial action. They also claim they last up to five times longer in the test lab than any other brand. Kind of interesting comments from an unpartial source.

[Lawdog]

PaulS,

It's the handle we're talking about.  There are many, many documented cases where the handle has come off.  Not talking about some monster abusing a rifle, just your everyday shooter in the process of working the action.  The last one I heard of was from the owner of the sporting goods store where it happened.  A guy was in the process of buying the rifle when cycled the action a second time and had the handle come off when he lifted the bolt.  Kiss one sale good-by.  This is not "mis-information", it's a fact.  Remington is still far from the "toughest sporting bolt-action".

When you look at the firing line at the local gun club during a match what actions do you see there?

I have been told many times to "check the rifles at a match and see what action is being used" so I did just that.  The last match that I attended was a Metallic Silhouette match at our club.  We had 37 shooters sign up for the hunter class and I got the make/caliber of their rifles.

CZ - 1
Mauser - 2
Remington - 7
Ruger - 7
Sako/Tikka - 5
Savage - 7
Winchester - 8

Top 3 calibers used were,

1.]  .308 - 16
2.]  7mm-08 - 7
3.]  6.5mm Swede - 5

The Guy that won the match in a shoot off was using a Sako 7mm-08 and the guy that lost the shoot off was using a Winchester 6.5mm Swede.  The rimfire division was dominated by Ruger 10/22's, easily 80% of the field.  All I think this proves is it all depends on what part of the country you are in as to what the shooters are using.  Lawdog

[PaulS]

Lawdog,

I am aware that you were talking about the handle but there was also a post about how the lugs were welded to the bolt and other stuff. The simple fact, as I understand it is that the bolts are assembled and then furnace brazed together. The bolt handle is attached at the same time as the bolt head and the other parts.

I was speaking about the firing line of 600 meter and 1000 meter competitions (apart from the military - the rules govern what they use) - the guys who get the best accuracy in the world and set the records to prove it. The ones who go through many barrels but keep the same actions after five or more barrels are gone. The fanatics of solid - ridgid - firearms that put more rounds through them in one year than most shooters do in a lifetime.

Like the Iowa 1000 yard benchrest association  in Pella IA.
In the Light gun 1000 yd match Remington actions placed 6 wins in 10 relays. There were 24 Remington actions with the secon place, Nesika action, having 14. Of the Remington actions most were 700's but there were some 40x actions as well (the 40x is a single shot 700 action - no cuts for the magazine)

If the actions were unreliable I would think there would be fewer of them in these high dollar sports where winning at any $ cost seems to be the code.


PaulS

[thecowboyace]

What gun uses the  7mm-08 - 7 ?  I have never noticed before.  But I have never been to any of the 'bigboys shootouts'.

[Lawdog]

PaulS,

Years ago I used to attend those 1000 yard matches but most of them held here in Calif. are held in Southern Calif. and now I do my very best to avoid that end of the state.  One thing you will admit(?) is that the rifles those shooters are using are not off the shelf.  Even the 40X's have been gone thru and checked every which way.  When talking about toughest(strongest) I am talking about factory rifles off the shelf.  Rifles used by the big boys in those 1000 matches do not fall into this category.  Sorry I wasn't more clear on this.  Merry Christmas.     Lawdog

[Grey Dog]

The 700s are perhaps betterat handling a severe overload than most other actions. They came to be used a lot in BR competition for a couple of reasons:
Mike Walker shot BR.
The 722 was offered in 222 Remington.
They continue to be used because they are easier to work with than the M70 and aftermarket parts (triggers etc.) are plentiful and affordable. Also Remington continued to take an interest in BR thanks to Walker and Jim Stekl. Winchester never cared to try.
Whether or not the 700's accuracy potential is really any greater than that of the Model 70 is hard to say but I think it might be slightly better.
I don't know where the .53 length for the threaded shank on the Winchester came from but it isn't so. The ones I have here measure about .725 for the pre-64s and .700 for the push feeds. I suppose one could make the shank short and avoid making an extractor cut. The threads are larger in diameter on the 700 though the pitch is the same.
Last match I attended I stomped a bunch of Remington based rifles with a P-14.
When it comes to rugged, functional dependability, it's hard to beat anything built on a 98 Mauser.GD