Author Topic: Need help, first shot high! (Read 1801 times)

Power · « **on:** August 21, 2003, 07:51:42 PM »

Been loading for my new Tikka and had a pretty good night at the range. Been trying to get a load dialed in and think I'm pretty close. Problem is I shot 2 groups of 5 and the first shot is hitting high, with a cold barrel, and then as the barrel heats up the rest of the group is really good.

Anyone see this happen before? Are there any remedies to try? I'm shooting a 7mm Rem. Mag. with 160g Partition reloads on top of IMR 4831 pushing along around 3,000 fps.

Thanks for the help.
(edit)

Barrel was dirty (probably 15 shots through it) before I began. Barrel was cold at first shot and next 4 shots were about 30 seconds apart. Barrel cooled for about 10 minutes before next group was shot.

High Brass · « **Reply #1 on:** August 22, 2003, 02:13:19 AM »

Well, could be several things there. No. 1, if you are shooting from a clean barrel, it may take 1-2 fouling shots before it'll settle. My .243 is like that. If clean, the first and second shots are nowhere near the point of aim. Second, if the barrel is new it may take several rounds(100+) to break in the barrel. My .280 took several rounds before it started to settle. Didn't have bad acuraccy, but it improved after several range sessions. Also you might want to check all of the action screws along with scope rings/mounts. If you are shooting repetative, the firt 1-3 rounds will typically cluster and then it'll open or shift POI after the barrel heats up. Hope this helps you. Good luck

Ron T. · « **Reply #2 on:** August 22, 2003, 02:42:59 AM »

HmmmmmmÂ…. ThatÂ’s strange alright.

The first thing IÂ’d check would be to insure your TikkaÂ’s barrel is still Â“floatingÂ”. My Godson just got a Tikka with the beautiful walnut stock and roll-over cheek pieceÂ… and I ran a rather heavy piece of paper down the barrel and between the barrel and the barrel channel on the stock. It Â“wentÂ” easily and didnÂ’t leave ANY doubt that the barrel was Â“free-floatingÂ”. Yours should act the same way.

Check it while the barrel is COLD, then check it again when the barrel heats up. It should remain free-floating all the time. If you find it is NOT Â“floatingÂ”, then remove the barreled action from the stock and wrap some sandpaper around a wooden dowel that will fit into the barrel channel on the stock and remove more of the wood where you find the paper Â“catchesÂ” when you check the barrel for being Â“free-floatingÂ”. If you do any sanding, youÂ’ll have to cover the raw wood with a clear plastic coating to insure moisture doesnÂ’t get to the raw wood and cause it to swell up when thereÂ’s a lot of humidity in the air or if rain gets down into the barrel channel. Your donÂ’t need to lay on a thick coating, but you must be sure you cover & seal any raw wood completely before re-installing the stock.

As far as shooting Â“groupsÂ”Â… a rifle with a free-floating barrel should shoot to the same point of aim regardless of whether the barrel is Â“warmÂ” or not. However, you should NEVER keep shooting your rifle until the barrel is HOT.

First, IÂ’d recommend you use 3-shot groups rather than 5-shot groups since your Tikka is a Â“HUNTINGÂ” rifleÂ… not a bench-rest rifle. YouÂ’ll probably never get more than 3 shots at any game animal, so itÂ’s those first three shots that will either bring down your quarry or not. So thereÂ’s no point to shooting 5-shots.

Second, IÂ’d recommend you fire ONE SHOT, then wait until the barrel is at least Â“coolÂ” (if not Â“coldÂ”) before firing another shot. I suggest you do this consistently when firing your 3-shot groups. Therefore, one Â“3-shot groupÂ” shouldnÂ’t take more than 10 minutes or so to complete the two 5 minute Â“breaksÂ”Â… one between the 1st & 2nd shotÂ… and another Â“5-minute breakÂ” between the 2nd and 3rd shot. Your Tikka should easily shoot LESS than a minute-of-angle (less than 1 inch at 100 yards).

Frankly, I have gone to Â“shooting inÂ” my hunting rifle groups at 50 yardsÂ… and just checking them at 100 yards to insure they are the proper distance above the bullseye at 100 yards. Generally, for a modern high-powered rifle, that will be about 2Â½ inches above the bullseye @ 100 yards which will yield a point-blank-range of about 260-300 yards depending on caliber. For your 7mm Rem. Mag. using 160 grain Nosler Partition Bullet with a ballistic coefficent of .475 @ 3,000 fps, my ballistic program indicates the following:

25 yards = + .10 inches
100 yards = + 2.58 inches
150 yards = + 3.00 inches
200 yards = + 2.23 inches
250 yards = + .22 inches
254 yards = Â± 0.00 inches (dead on)
275 yards = - 1.31 inches
300 yards = - 3.13 inches

This gives you a Â“point-blank-rangeÂ” of approximately 295 yards wherein the bullet never rises or fall 3 inches above or below the line of sight (aka Â“point-blank-rangeÂ”)

Good HuntingÂ…

Ron T.

Zachary · « **Reply #3 on:** August 22, 2003, 02:45:58 AM »

I had a similar problem with my Wichester M70 Classic Stainless in .338 Win. Mag.

Actually, it was the darndest thing - My first shot was about 4" high, but in the center line. The second shot was about 2" high, but still in the center. The third shot was bull's eye. The fourth and fifth shots were all in sub inch triangle like they supposed to.

I was at a shooting range in Texas and had to sight in several rifles. Since I didn't have time, I had a range officer shoot the .338. He also said that the gun wasn't initially grouping well because of the oil residue in the barrel. After that, the rifle always shoot at POI with great groups.

Zachary

gunnut69 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 22, 2003, 04:31:29 AM »

All rifles should be zeroed with shots from a cold barrel.. That's the way you will be using it in the field. Allow the barrel to cool as the previous poster said about 5 mins or more between shots, make the time delay consistant. All barrel 'grow' when they heat. It's the nature of steel. They can also warp as they heat, usually from inconsistancies in the barrel, i.e., a bore that's not perfectly centered, or perhaps stress left in the barrel steel from manufacturing processes. Sometimes stresses leave as the barrel ages, sometimes not. I've had some luck with cryo processing to 'deaden' the barrel. Actually it's the one aspect that I've been able to verify as usually improving. Also, never, I repeat NEVER, shot a rifle with oil in the bore. It's a sure way to ruin a good barrel. The oil acts as a hydralic ram and causes 'loose' spots in the bore. I've seen some bad enough they were easily identifiable using a patch pushed through on a jag. Wipe the bore with a clean dry patch before shooting..

Cabin4 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 22, 2003, 07:17:03 AM »

Is your fist shot high or are the follow up shots low

??

To me, I would count the first shot as 'the" shot with a cold bbl. If this is a hunting rifle, you will be shooting with a cold and clean bbl.

As it has been explained to me, both powder residue and bbl heat can/will cause the pattern to move. As the bbl heats up it will contract, tightening up the bore and thus moving the groups.

I could be wrong, but this is how I would react to this if you beileve the ammo is correct and stable.

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** August 22, 2003, 10:04:55 AM »

I'm thinking all you guys need to do is to buy a Remington Rifle and your problems would be solved. :eek:

Here is the group made by the first three shots from my Remington M700 LSS Mtn. Rifle in .30-06 this morning after I thoroughly cleaned it. No fouling shots were fired.

I had just finished firing several groups with various loads all using Barnes X bullets in 150, 165 and 180 grains. Wanted to start with clean barrel for conventional bullets.

Yup this is the rifle with the little pencil thin barrel that heats up too hot to touch by the end of three shots. Don't matter tho. It is bedded right and just keeps on stacking them in there.

BTW the Barnes loads ALL OF THEM were horrible. I am giving up on Barnes bullets in rifles. I'll have a list of all I have on the Classifieds Forum in the next few days at seriously reduced prices if anyone is interested.

GB

Zachary · « **Reply #7 on:** August 22, 2003, 11:22:11 AM »

GB,

One thing that I have personally noticed (and what many, many other shooters have also confirmed) about the Barnes X is that some guns love 'em, and others hate 'em.

My Remington BDL SS in .30-06 shoots sub-inch groups with Barnes 165 grain X-Bullets. My Winchester Classic Stainless in .338 also shoots sub-inch groups with 225 grain X-Bullets. Also, my Remington Sendero SF in .300 Win. Mag. shoots close to .5" groups (like the ones you posted) with the 180 grain X-Bullets.

However, my Browning A-Bolts in .270 and 7mm Rem Mag can't get groups any better than about 3" with 130 and 160 grain Barnes-X. Put in good 'ole Hornady factory ammo, or virtually any another factory ammo, they both shoot sub-inch groups.

Obviously your particular rifle (or barrel really) doesn't care much for the Barnes, so there's no sense in you keeping the bullets around. Too bad I don't reload or I would buy them for my particular guns that like 'em.

Zachary

jhm · « **Reply #8 on:** August 22, 2003, 11:33:47 AM »

Heck Zack: We all know you will get into reloading its just a matter of time and if you purchased them now you wopuld be heading off inflation it would be what is that word I keep telling the wife oh yes a INVESTMENT yes a investment go ahead and you will be well on your way to becoming a reloader, and at least when you start you will be starting with better quality bullets than we had when we started.

JIM

Graybeard · « **Reply #9 on:** August 22, 2003, 12:19:11 PM »

Yup Zach one of these days you are bound to get into reloading. My prices are cheap enough on them to buy for an investment. Check them out on the Classifieds. They are up now.

GB

Muddyboots · « **Reply #10 on:** August 22, 2003, 12:52:12 PM »

Just thought I'd pass this along. I use a battery powered aerator that you use on bait buckets to help cool down a barrel. Just put the tygon tubing into the barrel from chamber and let go for few minutes. These little aerators push just enough air down the barrel to help cooling. You will be amazed how much faster the barrel cools down with one of these. Seems like everyone I shoot with at the range is now using one once they saw how good it worked on my rifles. Keeps the barrels under control for temperature. Buy one that uses 2 D batteries since they seem to move more air than 1 D battery. Only about $6-7 at most local sporting goods or bait stores.
Muddyboots

Power · « **Reply #11 on:** August 22, 2003, 03:14:13 PM »

Thanks Muddyboots, I was just thinking how much I wish I had some way to cool the barrel between shots. I'll pick one of those up next time I see one!

Zachary · « **Reply #12 on:** August 22, 2003, 03:24:44 PM »

jhm and GB,

It's not so much the money that it will cost me to get set-up with reloading, nor really the time. In fact, I KNOW that I spend WAY too much money on factory ammo. Also, as far as time is concerned, I see reloading as a way to RELAX! :grin:

My problem is SPACE. I live in a relatively nice home here in South Florida - you know the type - Spanish style with red ceramic roof tiles, etc. - not exactly a log cabin although many times I wish it was.

Anyhow, between all the fancy marble everywhere, it really is hard to find a space in the house to set up a little work area. Keep in mind that humidity is very high in South Florida as it is sub-tropical here. I have three bedrooms and actually thought about converting the thrid bedroom into my "hunting and fishing room." But I had to skip that idea because I need the space for family and friends to stay when they visit. Next house I get will have lots of room - JUST FOR MY STUFF.

jhm and GB, I may not have space to do any reloading yet, but I do have a spare room for you guys and your spouses if you ever want to visit Miami. :wink:

Zachary

Ron T. · « **Reply #13 on:** August 22, 2003, 03:39:40 PM »

A really nice group, Graybeard......

A fine idea, Muddyboots... thanx.

Ron T.

jhm · « **Reply #14 on:** August 22, 2003, 04:02:27 PM »

Zachary : Do you have a garage they make wonderful reloading areas and occsionaly you can park your car in there, I had a new one built last year 30x45 with 10 ft walls 6in thick insu, in wall 9in in the ceiling, quiet peaceful and a pleasure to sit in there and watch the deer at the feeder and see the coyotes sneek across the pastures, you will get bit by the bug and find that once you make a humanly kill with one of your own it was well worth it.

JIM

Zachary · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2003, 07:36:25 AM »

I do have a garage, although it's only a one-car garage. Two problems: I have to keep the car inside of the garage - especially now during huricane season because the strong winds blow all sorts of debris around and can really scratch and ding up your car in a blink of an eye. The other problem is that, even if I had the space in the garage, the humidity is so high that I'm worried about it affecting the powder and other reloading items.

What I need to do is move out of south Florida and get a piece of property big enough to accomodate all of my needs. :grin:

Although I love saltwater fishing, my blood boils (in a good way) when it comes to hunting. Hunting is my true love. It sure is hard being a hunter and living in Miami. :cry:

Zachary

308TIKKA · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2003, 09:17:24 AM »

You want to see a 3 shot group at 100 yards? No its not a remington either and its shooting factory ammo

http://woodystaxidermy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26410[/img]

Zachary · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2003, 10:19:37 AM »

Hey GB, it looks like 308TIKKA got the best of 'ya. He's even makin' funna of your Remy. (just kiddin') :-D

:-D

Maybe someday we should all pitch in and buy GB a TIKKA!

Zachary

308TIKKA · « **Reply #18 on:** August 23, 2003, 10:54:05 AM »

Zachary--Theres an idea!

Maybe then GB would understand why a lot of posters on this board own TIkka's. In all honesty, i cannot shoot that group everytime with that gun. I have never even duplicated it. I have shot a fair number of .5" groups with that gun and some .75" groups as well.

I have also shot 1" groups and 1.25" groups but those are operator error!! :-D :-D

:grin:

My Tikka shoots worse the hotter/dirtier it gets. It shoots best on a cold, clean barrel, which is fine for me because thats real life hunting conditions.

I go shooting with a guy who shoots mostly savages and my Tikka has trouble keeping up with them plus the fact that he is a better shot than I.

crow_feather · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2003, 05:35:11 PM »

Power,
Your first shot is 1/2" high. If you can do the math, you will find out that the tiny fraction of an inch needing change at the barrel dosen't rate an investigation unless you're shooting for group size bragging rights.

Using Ron T.'s data, you will be 4.6 inches low at 300 yds instead of 3.1. The wind is going to make more of a difference.

Frankly, I wouldn't touch a rifle that shot 5 partitions into a 1 1/2 inch group at 100 yards - unless you shoot varmints with that pop-gun.

Happy huntin
C F

Power · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2003, 07:01:01 PM »

You're right crow-feather. I went to the range again today and with a 5-10mph right-to-left cross wind still managed the first 2 groups around 1 1/4". I think the best OAL for this gun is just a little over factory (specs are 3.290" and my Tikka seems to like it around 3.300"). What I really need is an indoor range to shoot at 100 with no wind. Around here 5-10mph at the range is a light wind day. Poor guys were up there today shooting .22 competition and I felt pretty sorry for them. Looked like I just stepped off the plane in Holland with all the little wind doping devices they had set up in ever color of the rainbow!

Cabin4 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 25, 2003, 12:59:46 AM »

Power,

Are you letting the bbl cool down between shots or are these shots in fairly close sucsession with a hot bbl ?

I have been experimenting with this and a few other issues at the range over the past couple of months and with my Ruger 30-06, a cool bbl versus a hot bbl make a big dif in pattern. By pattern I mean the location on the target. When the bbl heats up on my ruger, not only does the pattern move, it will tighten up. Depending on which load I shoot, of course it also is impacting pattern and group under the same temp conditions.

I'm not familiar with your particular rifle, but my ruger has a very skinny light wieght bbl and temp seems to plays a big role in results.

Graybeard · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2003, 08:39:53 AM »

Nope you guys can keep those old heavy as lead Tikka's and Sako's. Too dang heavy fer me. I'll stick with my light weight thin as a pencil barrelled R700 Mtn. Rifles with the laminated stocks.

Don't forget my group was the first three shots from a barrel that had just been cleaned. No fouling shots fired. That's the way it shoots when I take it to the field not just how it shoots from the bench. Don't change POI when the barrel heats up. Also that load wasn't one that had been worked up for it. Just one I pulled from the book and that's the first three shots from that box of bullets. That rifle shoots about everything (EXCEPT X Bullets) like that. I wouldn't trade it for three Tikka's if I had to use it. Heck I wouldn't anyway unless I had a deal agreed to in advance that let me have it back after I sold those expensive Tikka's for a tidy profit.

GB

308TIKKA · « **Reply #23 on:** August 25, 2003, 12:47:41 PM »

GB
Truth be told both of our guns shoot good! I just wanted you to know that there are TIkka's out there that shoot some pretty good groups. I dont believe Tikkas are much more expensive tha nRemingtons. Check out and online auction site. I saw a ton of TIkka's on there today going for 400-500$'s. :shock:
Heavy is relative to the user of the weapon. Whats heavy to you may not be Heavy to me. I think Heavy is an over used word in firearms but maybe thats because I have never owned a "heavy" one! :lol:
I have never shot a handload in my life. All factory loads go through my barrels. :wink:

Power · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2003, 03:02:29 PM »

I agree. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Just look at the Venus d' Milo (sp). Rubenesque used to be the standard in beauty 300-1000 years ago but nowadays women are expected to be 100 pounds and 6' tall. That ain't beauty to my eye any more than my rifle probably is to your eye. I do appreciate those wispy thin barrelled rifles as they sure are nice to carry but I'm totally happy with my Tikka and wouldn't trade you straight across for nuthin' !:grin:

Glad you're happy with your gun though. I think in the end that's what it really comes down to is being satisfied with what you got. I'm a tinkerer and until my gun makes 1 ragged hole at all ranges in all conditions I'll keep trying to make it shoot better. That is the fun part for me, just like rebuilding a 350 long block. It's no fun just runnin' them, you got to get your hands dirty to really appreciate how they tick.