200 or 255 grain lead for deer?

[Jayhawk Dan]

I've been reading these posts and have learned a lot, especially the varying opinions about Col. Jeff Cooper. My interest has to do with the experiences out there in using either 200 grain or 255 grain cast bullets at 800-900 fps in the .45 Colt ("Looong" Colt, that is) for hunting whitetail deer, not exceeding 200 pounds for a really big deer, at ranges less than 50 yards. I'll be using the open sights on a Ruger Vaquero. My questions are: 1. Which bullet weight does your experience indicate is the best, and 2. What is your experience with using Unique as the powder? Thanks to all for reading this and sharing your ideas with me.  

[Graybeard]

Go with the 255s and if you have a choice use one with the widest meplat possible.

Cast bullets don't kill the same way jacketed bullets do. They don't depend on velocity and don't need expansion. The meplat is what makes the permanent wound channel and the wider the meplat the more effective the bullet kills. They also are best when heavy for caliber. There is no advantage and only disadvantages to using light weight cast bullets for hunting.

My hunting load for my Ruger Bisley in .45 LC this year will be the Freedom Arms FA260JFP over 19.5 grains of H2400. I've not clocked it yet but I expect about 1000-1100 fps from it. Groups better than my tired old eyes really are able to shoot and each time I shoot it I wonder how it can shoot such small groups. The FA bullet is made super hard for use in the .454 Casull and as such at this velocity will act just like a hard cast would. But it is shooting better than any of the hard cast bullets I have on hand right now except my Lyman 452651 at about 325 grains. But they shoot so high I need to change front sights to use them. These are dead on so I'll go with them for this season.

GB

[Graycg]

Hard to beat a 255 over a good load of Unique for short range work on deer or pigs.  I run it about 950 fps and accuracy is very good.  I've never shot deer with it, but no reason it shouldn't do the job nicely.

My Vaquero doesn't like the 200 grain bullets very much and doesn't group them very well, and they don't hit near point of aim anyway.  

regards,
 Graycg

[myronman3]

here is my take on using cast bullets.   if you are going to do it, you arent aiming for blistering speed.   to make up for slower speed, use a heavier bullet.  i use the heaviest i can get.   they are still easy to shoot.  oh! and unique works great for me.  leaves a residue,  but works well.   what caliber are you shooting?

[Jayhawk Dan]

Good evening, Graybeard and Graycg!!
   Thank you for the benefit of your experience on this subject.  I do appreciate it.  I have found that my Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt with 7.5" barrel groups both the 200 and the 255 grain bullets pretty well.  However, I do want to stay under 1,000 fps velocity IF that will get the job done humanely.
   Thanks again!
Jayhawk Dan

[myronman3]

i have been screwing with this very subject for the last two months, only for a 44 mag and with 310 grain bullets.   with 8.2 grains unique i am getting  976 fps out of my blackhawk hunter.   out of the 45 colt, that should put you in the ballpark.

[Blackhawk44]

Follow the advice of the "Grays".  The 255 will come much closer to shooting to the sights than the 200gr (shoots low and loses momentum too fast) or the 300-325gr (shoot very high and hard to get enough speed with Unique).  I wouldn't go much over about 9-9.4gr Unique for about 900fps or so.   After that, things can get too hot too quick.  You can kill an awful lot of game at holster gun ranges with that load, despite what the latest magazines and advertising try to make you believe.  Eight and a half grains is 850fps and equals factory.  You could get by a long time on these type loads.  Enjoy.

[Lloyd Smale]

favorite load in the .45 vaquaro is 9.3 grains of unique with a 255 swc real mild to shoot and kills well.

[Larry Gibson]

Jayhawk Dan

Lloyd Smale's favorite load in the .45 vaquaro of 9.3 grains of Unique with a 255 or a 260 gr SWC is the load you want.  Use 8.5 gr Unique in a Colt or replicant SAA with the same bullet.

Larry Gibson

[TopGun]

Hi guys, the 9.0 Unique under a 250-255 hard cast was one of Skeeter Skelton's favorites and mine too. I finished off a woulded Elk with authority at about 30yds. I was actually surprised, but it's all I had while helping a friend track it down. I worked beautifully. It's the only load I use in my 4 5/8 Ruger as my holster hunter.

[Jayhawk Dan]

:grin: Thanks to all who replied to my question!!  I do appreciate your sharing the benefits of your experience with me.  I guess I'll go with the 255 grain hard cast lead load.  You've also given some great starting load weights for the Unique powder I want to use.
   The reason I was considering a 200 grain hard cast bullet was because the U.S. Army experienced a lot of breakdowns with their 1873 Colt Army's during the time they used the original .45 Colt load of a 250-255 grain bullet over 40 grains black powder (recently reported at approx. 1000 fps chronographed!).  The Army later adopted the .45 Schofield load (230 grain bullet over 30 grains black powder) for the 1873 Colt Army pistol and found that breakdowns were reduced significantly.  As a result of this, I thought the 255 grain load might be too much for my Vaquero, but apparently not.  Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on this!!

[Larry Gibson]

Jayhawk Dan

"The reason I was considering a 200 grain hard cast bullet was because the U.S. Army experienced a lot of breakdowns with their 1873 Colt Army's during the time they used the original .45 Colt load of a 250-255 grain bullet over 40 grains black powder (recently reported at approx. 1000 fps chronographed!).  The Army later adopted the .45 Schofield load (230 grain bullet over 30 grains black powder) for the 1873 Colt Army pistol and found that breakdowns were reduced significantly."  

In all my years I have never heard that version before.  Could I ask where you came by that information?

Larry Gibson

[Jayhawk Dan]

Sure, LMG!!  I read some of that in an article entitled "Revival of the Fittest" on pp 58-62, and pg 95 of the June 2000 issue of Guns & Ammo.  I'm ashamed to admit that I don't have the author's name.  I tore out the article and didn't keep the title page with the author's name.  The theme of the article is the S&W Schofield, old and new.  On page 60, second column, the author writes "This S&W revolver would use a cartridge about 1/8-inch shorter [than the .45 Colt, my note] with a 230-grain bullet over 28 grains of black powder, as opposed to the service cartridge's 255-grain bullet and 40 grains of black powder.  Upon adopting the S&W round as the service standard, the Army found that its Colt revolvers were breaking down less as well."
   I hope this is helpful.  If you want the source of my information about the chronographed velocity of some very old .45 Colt ammo loaded with black powder, let me know.  I'll send that to you as well.
Jayhawk Dan

[bpjon]

Jayhawk, I wouldn't worry much about the strength or durability of your Vaquero.  Loads that would cause undue wear and tear on the gun will cause undue wear and tear on your hands and wrist first.

[Larry Gibson]

Jayhawk Dan

Thanks for the info.  I recall reading that article, just didn't catch the inference that the Schofield round caused less "breakage".  Would be interesting to know what the article author's source was.  Stands to reason I guess as the .45 Colt was the "magnum" of its day and shooting the .45 Schofield in a SAA would probably be comparable to shooting .38s in a .357 with regards to wear and tear on the revolver.  Once again, thanks.

Larry Gibson