Bergara barrel results

[bphunter]

When I buy a barrel, I care most about results. I've purchased a number of T/C and Bergara barrels this year:

.30-06 T/C Pro-hunter
.204 Ruger T/C Pro-hunter
.50 Cal T/C Endeavor
.45/.410 T/C 15" pistol barrel (used)
.460 T/C S&W Magnum 15" pistol barrel (used)
.243 Bergara
.308 Bergara
.30-06 Bergara

I have yet to shoot the .30-06 Bergara, but the .243 and .308 barrels have been stellar performers. All the T/C barrels have shot very well also. I would say the exterior finish on the T/C's outshine the Bergara's, while Bergara has a FAR superior  finish on the actual bore. What difference does this make if they all shoot great? The Bergara barrels don't copper foul the way T/C's do, and cost about $100 less in my experience. Take a bore scope or magnifier down the bore of each one and you'll know what I'm talking about. I lovemy T/C barrels, but curse them for copper fouling. The ML and .460 S&W barrel have been exceptions. They don't seem to foul any worse than the Bergara's. I'm posting this primarily because I couldn't find much written about the Bergara barrels before I decided to take a chance with a few. Now I'm glad I took the chance. People can trash-talk Spanish barrels all they want. Bergara invested millions on tooling and advice from Ed Shilen and it shows at the range. I just wish T/C would take more care in reaming and polishing the bores. I've also heard that Bergara chambers are consistently true, another major factor in achieving the best possible accuracy.



Here's the best group I have shot so far with my .308 Bergara (.925"@200yds):

[Grumulkin]

I have no personal experience with Bergara but have seen postings on the web about them not always fitting the Encore frame.

I'm not sure why you have problems with copper fouling of T/C barrels.  I've never found mine to copper foul badly and, in fact, it's pretty hard to get my 460 S&W and my 500 S&W barrels to foul much at all; even after several dozen rounds a few swipes with a patch (I hardly every use brushes) and they're pristinely clean.  The T/C barrels I've have also shoot so well I doubt Bergara could improve much on it.

Let's face it, the big attraction of Bergara barrels is that they're cheaper and not better than T/C barrels.

[Keith L]

I agree with Grumulkin.  No copper fouling here and I have never had an issue with accuracy in any of my barrels.  I am happy you like your Bergara barrels, but I doubt they are any better than TC.

For what its worth, I have seen the video also.  The technology shown is fairly routine in my world.  I would be amazed if TC didn't have at least as much available to them.

[Swampman]

The accuracy has never been a problem.  It's the safety issues..........

[Keith L]

The accuracy has never been a problem.  It's the safety issues..........

This should be good.

What safety issues? 

[bphunter]

I believe swampman is refering to the cheap spanish muzzleloader barrels made for CVA, Winchester, and a few others by a contract manufacturer. There were reports of barrel failures, but to what degree I don't know. They were recalled and hopefully removed from circulation before anyone was hurt. Barrel ruptures are not exactly foreign to other manufactures either. I've recently read about Sako and Remington high-powered rifles failing catastrophically with factory ammo. This aint supposed to be a thread about bashing someones product, but that could be fun! 

I really don't get it. I believe the replies from those who don't suffer from copper fouling. Maybe I shoot different more rounds or use softer copper bullets or whatever. Every barrel I owns fouls copper. When it takes 2 hours with Sweet's and I have to resort to my Outer's foul-out and JB paste to get the job done, then there's something wrong. I have 15 rifles, (20 barrels) in the safe and the only barrels that give me trouble are the small-bore T/C's. Go figure. When I look down the bore of these two barrels, it looks like the tool used to imprint the rifling chattered as it was pulled down the bore. It looks a lot like extremely shallow threading. In any case, it seems to collect copper and after 25 -50 rounds, accuracy starts to drop off. Simply not the case with any other rifles I own.

[Keith L]

I understand.  I thought he was saying TC has a safety problem.

I have a .204 Ruger TC rifle barrel and two .222 barrels, as well as two 17HMR, A 17M2, and several .22 barrels and have no real copper fouling.  I guess I wouldn't expect it with any of the rimfires, but it sure could come from the three centerfires.  I don't know what to tell you.  I will say that the only one of the three small bore centerfires that I bought new was the .204, and when I got it and cleaned it the first time it was filthy, not with copper fouling but black crud and chips.  It did take a lot of scrubbing before I thought it was ready to shoot.  Who knows what happened to the .222s before they landed at my house.

[Grumulkin]

I really don't get it. I believe the replies from those who don't suffer from copper fouling. Maybe I shoot different more rounds or use softer copper bullets or whatever. Every barrel I owns fouls copper. When it takes 2 hours with Sweet's and I have to resort to my Outer's foul-out and JB paste to get the job done, then there's something wrong. I have 15 rifles, (20 barrels) in the safe and the only barrels that give me trouble are the small-bore T/C's. Go figure. When I look down the bore of these two barrels, it looks like the tool used to imprint the rifling chattered as it was pulled down the bore. It looks a lot like extremely shallow threading. In any case, it seems to collect copper and after 25 -50 rounds, accuracy starts to drop off. Simply not the case with any other rifles I own.

I even shoot Barnes bullets which are legendary for copper fouling.  I, by the way, have more barrels to clean than you do and the only one that seems to foul rapidly is a CZ 550 Safari Magnum in 458 Lott.  The CZ is quite accurate though and a little copper fouling doesn't seem to degrade accuracy.  It takes a bit more time to clean but I accept that.

Perhaps you should consider different cleaning methods?  I, for instance, would never use JB paste since, if I'm not mistaken, it has an abrasive quality to it.  I rarely use brushes; just tight fitting patches.  I use several cleaning products including Barnes CR-10, Butch's Bore Shine, Shooters Choice and Wipe Out depending on whether it's mostly copper fouling or carbon fouling I'm trying to rid the barrel of.  And finally, the final stage of clean involves thorough coating of the bore with Microlon Gun Juice or Prolix and NEVER oil.

The latter two products do not change the first shot impact point like oil does, do not swage the bore and leave a coating on the bore that makes it more resistant to fouling.

[bphunter]

I even shoot Barnes bullets which are legendary for copper fouling.  I, by the way, have more barrels to clean than you do and the only one that seems to foul rapidly is a CZ 550 Safari Magnum in 458 Lott.  The CZ is quite accurate though and a little copper fouling doesn't seem to degrade accuracy.  It takes a bit more time to clean but I accept that.

Perhaps you should consider different cleaning methods?  I, for instance, would never use JB paste since, if I'm not mistaken, it has an abrasive quality to it.  I rarely use brushes; just tight fitting patches.  I use several cleaning products including Barnes CR-10, Butch's Bore Shine, Shooters Choice and Wipe Out depending on whether it's mostly copper fouling or carbon fouling I'm trying to rid the barrel of.  And finally, the final stage of clean involves thorough coating of the bore with Microlon Gun Juice or Prolix and NEVER oil.

The latter two products do not change the first shot impact point like oil does, do not swage the bore and leave a coating on the bore that makes it more resistant to fouling.

Thanks Grumulkin, I've never even heard of Microlon Gun Juice or Prolix before today, but these sound like two products I should become familiar with. Like you, I also try to use nothing but patches and that does work most of the time. I break out the Sweet's when fouling gets really bad. When the patch comes out dark purple, you know there's lots of copper. I never use bronze brushes during this step because they can actually add to the problem and cause blue patches. J&B paste comes out when all else fails. I know what you mean about the oil. I've been running Hoppes through all my barrels followed by a dry patch just before shooting. It's worked pretty well so far, but I will try your suggestions and see if that helps. Thanks for the great tips.

[Varmint Hunter]

Assuming that the target boxes are 1"; wouldn't that group be over 2"?  How did you get .9"?

Just curious.

[quickdtoo]

The grid on that target is .5"x.5".

Tim

http://www.targetz.com/targets10.htm
http://www.targetz.com/targetzlib/10144.pdf

[Keith L]

According to the writing on the target it is also a 200 yard target I think.  Not bad either way.

[bphunter]

Varmint Hunter ,

The grid on the target printed just under 1/2". I was in a hurry and forgot to add anything for scale. I always measure groups outside-edge to outside-edge (two furthest apart holes) and subtract one bullet diameter to get center-to-center. It's hard to see in the picture, but this is a 5-shot group with two going into the center hole. The wind was dead calm when I shot this group, which almost never happens to me. The scope was a Nikon Omega I got for $139 from Midsouth. Lots of parallax at 200 yds, so I had to really eyeball the position of the crosshairs for every shot.

[alsaqr]

It's the safety issues..........

Come on now show us the safety issues.   Without referring to any article written by R. W., show us. 

[Swampman]

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums//index.php/topic,84969.0.html

[nomosendero]

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums//index.php/topic,84969.0.html

I have to believe that you are smarter than some of your posts indicate.

You post/link is pure crap. CVA is a different company now, not the same owners. The link you have were not made in the current Bergara plant, in other words the only thing that is common here is the brand NAME
CVA. Why be intentionally misleading?

If someone has real evidence that these Bergara barrels are bad, then post it. I have seen plenty of info on bad TC barrels on this forum if you would like to go back & look, but I am not done with TC by a long shot. They
have made some good ones too, so great ones.

And a single bad experience usually does not turn me off to a brand totally, if it did I would be turned off with the TC brand. I bought a beautiful walnut stocked TC .50 & it shot very poorly. Sent it back to TC & they found a bur where the QLA meets the rifling & smoothed it out. It was better but still not good enough, so after trying about every sabot combo known to man I sold the tube. I will be buying a TC tube for this frame & a Bergara as well. We shall see how it goes.

As far as copper fouling, I have a super 14 30-30AI barrel which was a copper factory. I bought "Final Finish" &
after working with it awhile, it is good now & very accurate & I love it. My brother's 30-30AI tube did not have this fouling problem, so you never know.

[Swampman]

Spain is Spain why are you intentionally misleading?

[nomosendero]

Spain is Spain why are you intentionally misleading?

You just did another moronic post. I didn't say anything about Spain. Good stuff has come out of Japan & junk has come out of Japan & the same is true of Spain.

[Keith L]

I have done very little with inlines.  I do have one of the original TC inlines (I can't even remember what they called it), and have only shot it a few times.  I have a number of side hammers, mostly TC but some others as well.  And I can remember from my early days when TC, Italian and Spanish muzzleloaders were what people had.  I never saw any barrels explode, but I did bulge one on an Italian 54 Hawken carbine.  It was my first experience with front stuffing, and I did not seat a ball fully on the powder.

What I do recall are all the Spanish muzzleloaders that would not fire, or consistently hang-fired etc.  CVAs were the worst.  Lots of folks bought them because they were cheap, then left the sport disappointed because they had so much trouble.  For a while it seemed like each time I went to the range someone would bring me a Spanish gun that was junk and want me to make it work.  I swore never to buy a CVA.  I know they are a new company, but I still find it hard to spend money with them when I can get the same thing from someone who always treated me right.

No logic, just feeling.  Like I said before I am glad you enjoy your barrels.  I know I enjoy mine.

[bphunter]

I think personal experience drives all of us when it comes to how we percieve a product. If you have a bad experience or two with a particular product you will be smart to find something better and never look back. That's why the free market works as well as it does. Now, let's all be happy and go shooting!

[nomosendero]

I have done very little with inlines.  I do have one of the original TC inlines (I can't even remember what they called it), and have only shot it a few times.  I have a number of side hammers, mostly TC but some others as well.  And I can remember from my early days when TC, Italian and Spanish muzzleloaders were what people had.  I never saw any barrels explode, but I did bulge one on an Italian 54 Hawken carbine.  It was my first experience with front stuffing, and I did not seat a ball fully on the powder.

What I do recall are all the Spanish muzzleloaders that would not fire, or consistently hang-fired etc.  CVAs were the worst.  Lots of folks bought them because they were cheap, then left the sport disappointed because they had so much trouble.  For a while it seemed like each time I went to the range someone would bring me a Spanish gun that was junk and want me to make it work.  I swore never to buy a CVA.  I know they are a new company, but I still find it hard to spend money with them when I can get the same thing from someone who always treated me right.

No logic, just feeling.  Like I said before I am glad you enjoy your barrels.  I know I enjoy mine.

Keith, now that I do understand. "No logic, just feeling" , yep even though you realize the fact that they are not the same folks "I know they are a new company", sometimes these bad experiences can give you these FEELINGS. And yes it is easier to do business with those who always treated you right, I felt TC did not treat me right, once they removed the burr & the gun would shoot a 2 pellet load with the 250gr in an almost acceptable group, they did not care that
the barrel would not shoot ANY sabot load with a bullet over 250gr or any decent size full cal. bullet at all.

I could have decided not to mess with any more Encores, but one thing that kept me from doing that was my success with Contenders. Different model, but "feelings" as you say. I hope the next Encore tubes do as well for me & some others here.

Anyway, your comments make sense even though it has nothing to do with Bergara barrels & was honest because you did not act like the CVA's of the past had Bergara tubes or even the same company. That was not the situation with a previous poster & I won't let misinformation like that stand if I see it.

[Ladobe]

...What I do recall are all the Spanish muzzleloaders that would not fire, or consistently hang-fired etc.  CVAs were the worst.  Lots of folks bought them because they were cheap, then left the sport disappointed because they had so much trouble.  For a while it seemed like each time I went to the range someone would bring me a Spanish gun that was junk and want me to make it work.  I swore never to buy a CVA. 

This peeked my curiosity Keith.   Are you referring to the early CVA sidelocks, or the in-lines they now make?   I have no experience with any in-line, wouldn't be caught dead with one in the house or in the field hunting with anybody carrying one as I am traditional all the way with muzzleloaders.   But I do have a lot of experience with CVA's early sidelocks.   Like many from my generation, I got heavy into muzzleloading when TC came out with the Hawken in 1970, have had a bunch of TC's and still have several.   But I also had quite a few CVA sidelocks (still have 3), and not one of them ever gave me a lick of trouble.   They were as accurate as the TC's and only lacked their fit and finish.   My very early 45 Mountain Rifle will still out shoot every other sidelock I've ever owned.   The early 32 and 36 Squirrels have taken more meat for the pot, varmints and predators than I can remember, and the Siber 45 pistol imported by CVA consistently won the matches at my local groups bimonthly shoots.   Am I a CVA fan?   Maybe a little for their early sidelocks that only take a back seat to my TC's.

As for the TC Contender/Encore barrels... what's most important IMO is that YOU are satisfied with what you buy and use, not what somebody else tells you that you should be using.    My car is a Chevy and my truck is a Ford.   The Corvette is lightning fast and a lot of fun to drive, but can't do much else except drink gas like its going out of style and pick up gold diggers.   The Ford is much slower but easy to drive, runs forever on a tank of gas and is so solid it can haul whatever I ask it to and to places that the Chevy can't.   Each has its place, and each has served me well for what they were bought for.   Doesn't matter that one is a Chevy and one a Ford to me (as long as neither of them are Dodge).        

[Keith L]

These were sidelocks.  I remember hammers that bent when shot, frizzens so soft they wouldn't spark, triggers that couldn't be made to release properly, breech plugs not properly drilled so the ignition had no way to make it to the powder.  There were some good ones I bet that escaped the factory, but they sold a bunch of real poor quality kits that folks would get for Christmas and could not get to work.   

[JerryKo]

BPhunter,

Good to hear you had good results.  I tried a 300wm I got for a good deal there is a thread on it.  It got returned to the shop I bought it from because of loose lockup(horizontally).  It was becoming a good shooter, before that.  I think it had a headspace issue though because it was stretching cases badly with starting loads.  I liked the finish, it matched well.  Maybe there was a bad run, because of the 3 that were sold they were all returned because of issues.  One wouldn't even chamber a round of factory ammo.  I took my chance and lost, but others on this site have had good results.  I may still buy on again if they go on clearence again.  Good return policy at my shop, so I reallly have nothing to loose to try one again.  Thanks for the heads up.

Jerry

[Lead Poison]

My experiences with various custom Encore barrel makers and Thompson Center barrels (in several different cartridges) caused me to gladly sell every single Encore I had. I had constant problems with vertical stringing, lousy accuracy and changes in point of impact. None of the Encores were consistent.

I will never own another Encore; that's how dissatisfied I am with them. Your experience may differ with the Encore, but for me, I'll stick with the bolt actions from now on and never look back.

You can't beat a good shooting bolt action! I'll take a Remington 700, Ruger 77, or a Savage 16/116 any day of the week!

[Davemuzz]

I've made my statements about Bergara barrels on some previous post. However, this is what a very well known and knowledgeable fellow posted on another forum about the Bergara barrels:

If you buy any quality loose barrel from a CIP manufacturer, Browning / Beretta / Benelli you name it, even a low-pressure shotgun barrel-- take a look, you'll find CIP proof house marks on every single barrel.

Now, look at any "world famous Bergara barrel"-- and try to find any proof marks. I don't think you will, and the reason why is self-explanatory.

I can't say if there are or are not proof marks on the barrels as I don't have any barrels to look at.

Dave

[hogrdr]

My experiences with various custom Encore barrel makers and Thompson Center barrels (in several different cartridges) caused me to gladly sell every single Encore I had. I had constant problems with vertical stringing, lousy accuracy and changes in point of impact. None of the Encores were consistent.

I will never own another Encore; that's how dissatisfied I am with them. Your experience may differ with the Encore, but for me, I'll stick with the bolt actions from now on and never look back.

You can't beat a good shooting bolt action! I'll take a Remington 700, Ruger 77, or a Savage 16/116 any day of the week!

Then why are you looking here if never looking back? I've had both Remington 700 & Ruger 77 and they never shot as good as my Pro Hunter 270! So go spred your hate somewhere else
Hog

[Davemuzz]

Lead,

There are thousands of people who own and shoot Encores and Contenders (including myself). With a little bit of reading and just a bit of easy "tweaking" to these guns, they shoot excellent groups and the problems you describe just plain go away. (If the gun had these problems to begin with).

So, maybe it's best that you stick with a gun that doesn't have that many moving parts.

Dave

[Keith L]

Encores and Contenders aren't for every body.  Those of us that like them like the tinkering that goes with them.  Others just want to load and shoot.  Ease off the poor guy.  It is his right to shoot bolt actions if he must.

[bubba]

well I own a cva optima elite in 50 caliber and  270.  I will match the results from that blow my head off barrel with any encore ever made. I even shoot high pressure centerfire.  How will I ever sleep at night.  I love it when people are quick to judge something they have never used and because one person said it didnt lock up just right or spain is mentioned.  If you look around the t/c forum, you will see lots of posts where ppl had problems with an encore or contender and had to send it back.   Well guess what if you have a problem with a bergara barrel or even a cva, send it back they fix it and believe me I have experience with both and cva'a customer  service is heads above the headaches I am having with thompson right now over a couple encore issues. I call cva with a question or concern I get someone on the phone and an answer.  I have been calling thompson for 3 days now and get the person is on the phone leave a name and number.  If their product is so wonderful and flawless, you would think customer service would have time ot answer the phone as no one should be calling.  Yes I own an encore also with 50 caliber 7-08 and have a 308 15 inch barrel coming for it.  My point dont knock it until you try it.