Can i turn a short action model 11 to 30-30 win

[3006bluffhunter]

Ok I asked a while ago if a 340 savage barrel in 30-30win would fit a newer short action rifle ! Iwas told No it wouldn't tread into the reciever! So what is my option for a custom rifle in 30-30 win! I know I would need a rimmed case bolt face! Please help stear me down the correct path! Did anyone ever have one made in 30-30 win? With a newer short action savage? Thanks Dale

[trotterlg]

I would think you could do it.  The 30-30 rim diameter is close to .500 which is smaller than the magnums and larger than the 30-06 case.  I would think that it would be easier to open up a bolt face by .020 than to bush one down.  The extractor could probably be modified enough to work.  All you would need to do is cut the chamber so that the cartridge would head space on the sholder not the rim and let the rim set high enough to let the extractor grab it.  Problems I would see is that the sholder area of a 30-30 is not much and the angle is shallow, this woud probably make for some minor issues at least.  Only other option would be to cut a relief notch in the barrel for the extractor to rotate into, this will then cause problems setting the head space in the usual Savage way of just turning the barrel in and locking down the nut.  Then you have the feeding problems with a rimmed cartridge, this could work I guess if you stacked them in the magazine properly and played with the feed rails.  I would have to have a really really good reason to have one before I went to the trouble.  Larry

[billy_56081]

ON a Savage 325/340 the barrel is angled at the rear kinda like a cone where the chamber cut off the cone and it allows the case to still headspace on the rim while it allows the exrtactr to grab it. I hope I explained this well enough. Would be easier to draw.

[trotterlg]

I understand that, probably would work on a model 11 then.  The rim of a 30-30 isfairly deep, .041 by my measuremnts, so you could give it .015 to seat on and then .025 for the extractor to grab.  Nice call, this is getting easier and easier.  Larry

[LaOtto222]

You are talking about a lot of work (read expense) to get this modification done. Just about every thing is going to be custom made or modified. Why don't you just get a 308 and load it down to 30-30 levels? If you really, really have to have a 30-30 bolt gun, find a used Remington 788. If you can get by with a single shot get a Handi and you can get lever action 30-30 every where. I know that having a custom gun made up that no one else has is a big draw, but there comes a point that the expense and bother is just not worth it. Besides the bolt face alteration, extractor modification and special barrel being made up, your magazine will have to be modified to handle the rimmed case. Usually they stack them in the magazine one rim in front of the other. Magazines can be very finicky - not feeding well even if they are designed for the cartridge originally. You could make it a single shot to get around the feeding problems - but you might as well buy a Handi rifle. They are single shot rifles and shoot pretty decently in 30-30 configuration. I know that some times common sense goes out the window when you just want it. No matter what you decide to do - Good Luck and Good Shooting

[billy_56081]

Or get yourself a 340/325 and go from there,  I think mine has a very smooth bolt pull.

[R.W.Dale]

it can and has been done before, but as far as I know only as a single shot.

Interesting thing is that on a buddy's savage his bolt face  accommodated a 30-30 rim even on what's supposed to be a .473 bolt face, your best bet would be to have this 06 face opened up slightly. Beyond that just get on the phone with shilen and order a prefit savage bbl.

I did something similar when I built my 7.62x39mm bench gun from a stevens 200 action. To bypass the magazine I simply installed a scorehigh benchrest follower, However if you're bored you might even coax the magazine into feeding.

Or get yourself a 340/325 and go from there,  I think mine has a very smooth bolt pull.

I've had two of these rifles I worked over from muzzle to buttplate and sold at a huge loss, trust me you cannot turn these sows ears into a silk purse.

They are single shot rifles and shoot pretty decently in 30-30 configuration.

a handi will not shoot anywhere near as accurately as a savage/stevens action with a shilen barrel. I have one.




price breakdown

stevens 200 in 7mm-08  $300

sell factory bbl for -$70

shilen barrel  $300

boltface work $75

banchrest follower $20

total $625

having a 30-30 that'll shoot in the .3's and using it to hustle know it all's at the range PRICELESS

[LaOtto222]

I am curious how the extractor/barrel/bolt face interact. In a normal Stevens action the bolt face encapsulates the head. In other words the head sticks out of the barrel a little ways and the bolt face surrounds the case head. In a 30-30 it normally head spaces off of the rim, not shoulder. I can see that the extractor lip being shortened just a little to accommodate larger rim diameter of the 30-30 and the bolt face being opened up. I just do not see how the cartridge fits in the barrel. Does it stick out the back of the barrel a little and the case head spaces off of the shoulder? If it does, how did you spec it to Shilen? Did you tell them how much head space you wanted so the case sticks out the back of the barrel face? Like I want the reamer stopped 1/8" short or some thing like that.

Here is a link to Shilen available chambers, I found a 7.62X39mm, but was unable to locate a 30-30 chamber as available. The 7.62X39mm is a rimless case, not a rimmed one so it is much easier to work out in a Stevens/Savage action.

http://www.shilen.com/chambers.html

What am I missing here? Was a custom 30/30 reamer made available? I just got a 223 Rem barrel back from Shilen and it was $380. Of course it was a Select/Match grade and hand lapped SS. Was your barrel CM? What grade? How much extra do they charge you for the a custom 30/30 chamber?

[billy_56081]

Shilen does not make a prefit barrel in 30-30, a 30-30 headspaces on the rim, and that can only be achieved by the way I described how a 340/325 does it above. Headspacing on the shoulder would be a dicey propostion, 1 the angle and size of the shoulder, 2 it is intended as a factory round to headspace off the rim. I would bet even with factory ammo you would have misfires. I think fire formed and neck sized ammo would be the only ammo that might be reliable in the situation. I would guess getting top end accuracy our of this system would be tough.

[R.W.Dale]

Shilen does not make a prefit barrel in 30-30, a 30-30 headspaces on the rim, and that can only be achieved by the way I described how a 340/325 does it above.

Shilen will make anything you call and order from them. Yes a 30-30 has a rim but it also has a shoulder and can be headspaced there in the same manner the .225win I made earlier in the year. If a 30-30 shoulder is a dicey proposition then don't tell those 35remington or 30remington guys that or even my 7.62x39 for that matter

Don't tell me it can't be done I've SEEN IT DONE

http://savageshooters.com/SavageForum/index.php/topic,12686.15.html

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Re: Weird and unusual Savage builds
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2008, 10:05:37 AM »
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I"ve built 2 Savage"s and 2 Rem 700"s so far. The Savage is easy to do as I took a 308 bolthead and opened it up to .510" to accomodate the 30/30 rim.You will also have to remove a little from the backside of the extractor to the same diameter as the bolthead. over 1000 rounds and have not a any problems. You will set the headspace off the shoulder. I took a new piece of brass and resized full length and filled the case with cerrosafe to use as my go-gauge. For the no-go I just add a .004" shim between the boltface and the go-gauge. The Remington"s present a little more of a challenge if you want to retain the rim. The easiest way is to take the brass and turn down the rim"s to .473" then set the headspace the same way off the shouder. This allows you to use the factory extractor. You could open up the boltface and use a sako extractor if you want to retain the rim original diameter. Or you could go with the PTG bolt and do the same. Or you can take the Rem bolt and set it up with a Savage bolthead. Both Savage"s are single shot. The one in the pic is my BR rig and the other is short action with 5.5 Shilen 12 twist B&C stock. 110 grain Sierra HP"s & 110gr v-max"s @ 2950fps do a wonderful job on the coyote"s. The BR gun has shot some amazingly small groups and you can shoot it all day long. I"ll try to post some pics. I"ve not had this much fun since the 17HMR came out. I wish Lapua made 30/30 brass. The Rem BR rig is single shot and the other is for hunting. I"ve tried without much success to get the to feed from magazine and about 2 rounds is all that works and even then it is not failsafe. Been thinking about 30/40 Krag and 7.62 Russian Rimmed.

you just desperately want to be right

What am I missing here? Was a custom 30/30 reamer made available? I just got a 223 Rem barrel back from Shilen and it was $380. Of course it was a Select/Match grade and hand lapped SS. Was your barrel CM? What grade? How much extra do they charge you for the a custom 30/30 chamber?

mine is a 7.62x39 built on a 1/15 twist match bbl that's 26" long.

I am curious how the extractor/barrel/bolt face interact. In a normal Stevens action the bolt face encapsulates the head. In other words the head sticks out of the barrel a little ways and the bolt face surrounds the case head.

the bolt face on a savage is deep enough as it is to accommodate a 30-30 rim, so forget the rim even being there it's irrevelant in the same manner as the belt on magnums.  The way savage bbl's are set uo is for them to have a standing gap between the breach face and bolt head. Opening and closing this gap is where you arrive at your final headspace

[LaOtto222]

I did not say it could not be done - I say at what cost? I just did not know how it was done. For normal head spacing with a 30-30, the rim will be against the back of the barrel (chamber mouth). For an extractor to grab it, there would have to be a notch cut into the breech face. If you set the head space by turning the barrel in and out, there is no way of indexing the notch to the extractor and still have proper head space. I guess you could cut a notch all the way around, like described above - sort of a cone type breach face. I was just thinking that if you recessed the rim into the bolt face, the case would have to stick out the end of the barrel a little. To do this I would think you would short chamber the 30-30 so it would stick out a little. Either way you go you are going to have to custom machine the breech face or custom chamber the 30-30. On my Savage model 40 that has a rimmed case, the breech is cone shaped, to accommodate the extractor. The example that you gave for the other site, he used a Hart barrel. I assume that he bought a blank and either threaded, chambered and machined the breech face for his application himself or hired a gunsmith to do it. If you are doing all the work your self, then costs will be way down, but if you have to hire someone to do this, the costs start going up. It is fun to think about a project based on the 30-30; I just do not know how practical it is. You can get a 308 in a Stevens or Savage gun. If you hand load, you can down load it to 30-30 levels. But when you want something that few have, you can justify it by simply saying I want it. Like I mentioned above, it would probably have to be a single shot. Of course I personally prefer single shots over a magazine feed bolt and would feel this as no handicap. One other thought for the bolt face, why couldn't you just machine the the whole face flat and put a spring clip on as an extractor? The head space is off the bolt face.

[R.W.Dale]

for crying out loud would guys drop the gobbeldygook on cone shaped breach faces.

30-30 has a SHOULDER you can headspace on and leave the appendix of a rim hanging in that neitherworld between the breachface and bolt head recess. A savage extractor will go up over a 30-30 rim the bolt face is already deep enough to accommodate this. That's all you need to know, that's it, done, fin

I've already built a .225 win guess what IT'S rimmed and no is does not headspace there. Setting up a 30-30 to headspace in this manner is no different than setting a belted magnum up to headspace on the shoulder

[trotterlg]

The problem with headspacing on the sholder is that factory ammo is not intended for that method of chambering, it is ment to sit on the rim.  The sholder will not be as tightly controlled as a rimless cartridge is, the sholder will be back from the sholder in the chamber by some amount so it will always seat on the rim.  It also has a very shallow sholder angle, so any slight differences in sholder position or diameter will create a greater difference in seating depth than a sharp sholdered round.  The coned breach is simply like haveing an extractor cutout all the way around the cartridge head, it leave enough rim hanging over the face of the cone for an extractor to grab.  Anyone who has a lathe can cut the chamber and make the coned breach as easily as they can chamber and thread a barrel for a rimless round.  Larry

[billy_56081]

A 225 winchester, while semi rimmed was originall intended to head space on the shoulder as were the rem. cartridges you mention. The 30-30 winchester was not.

[R.W.Dale]

A 225 winchester, while semi rimmed was originall intended to head space on the shoulder as were the rem. cartridges you mention. The 30-30 winchester was not.

to use the cleche "you have to think outside the box" just a tiny tiny bit

who cares what some long dead cartridge designer from the 19th century designed it for?In can be headspaced off the shoulder with no problems whatsoever. I take it you've never heard of 30 remington, pretty much 30-30 sans rim, or 35 remington it has a shoulder so small it's more like a prehensile shoulder kinda like our tails

The problem with headspacing on the sholder is that factory ammo is not intended for that method of chambering, it is ment to sit on the rim.  The sholder will not be as tightly controlled as a rimless cartridge is,

Try measuring the rim thickness on various pieces of 30-30 brass, they don't do a very good job tightly controlling that either.

besides who cares if you have to use once fired brass with the shoulder only slightly pushed back, I'm sure that if you didn't go through the expense and trouble of building one off a high precision single shot bolt gun in 30-30 so you can shoot craptastic underloaded factory ammo.

Or just set your headspace on the tight side, that way it'll shoot ammo with the shortest shoulder and the powerful camming advantage of the bolt can crush longer shoulders back a few thousandths, similar to factory ammo in an ackley chamber. Remember headspace is adjustable on a savage

[trotterlg]

But why would anyone headspace on the sholder if you can headspace on the rim like the cartridge was designed for?  A 30-30 Ackley does not head space on the sholder either, it uses the rim.  Larry

[R.W.Dale]

But why would anyone headspace on the sholder if you can headspace on the rim like the cartridge was designed for?

Because only one way allows you to build what this topic is about cheaply and accurately besides who cares where the headspace is   as long as it shoots good. Nobody is going to walk up to you at the range when shooting a 30-30 that shoots n the.3's and tell you your rifle is a piece of crap cause 30-30 is supposed to use the rim

A 30-30 Ackley does not head space on the shoulder either, it uses the rim.

but only on the first firing

if you don't go shovin that shoulder back and neck size only it most certianlly will headspace on the shoulder. A rim won't blow out to fit your chamber perfectly, a shoulder will. Again read up on reloading for a bottlenecked belted magnum so that headspace is on the shoulder not the rimBELT


http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=938676

lookie here a NECK die set for 30-30

[LaOtto222]

"I was just thinking that if you recessed the rim into the bolt face, the case would have to stick out the end of the barrel a little. To do this I would think you would short chamber the 30-30 so it would stick out a little." a quote from my above statement. If 3006bluffhunter is going to do this, doesn't he have to know how?

Of course it would have to head space on the shoulder in this case. Most guns do shoot better if head spaced off the shoulder, even if they have a rim. With a rimmed case I get better accuracy if I once fire them and then only push back the shoulder enough to clear head space or neck size only.

You have to short chamber a 30-30 to have it stick out the back of the breech face, otherwise the rim will go against the breech face with no space,  Where did you get some one to short chamber your barrel? Did you specify how far it was to stick out? Some thing like the depth of the bolt face + .020" so the bolt would not hit the breech face when it was closed?

[R.W.Dale]

"I was just thinking that if you recessed the rim into the bolt face, the case would have to stick out the end of the barrel a little. To do this I would think you would short chamber the 30-30 so it would stick out a little." a quote from my above statement. If 3006bluffhunter is going to do this, doesn't he have to know how?

I see where we're missing each other now.

What you cite above is how savage and most other bolt action chambers are set up on any cartridge. Rimmed belted, rimless or rebated.

The cartridge headspace gauge sticks out the end of the bbl a few thousandths more than the depth from the face of the bolt to the cartridge recess. The left over gap is what you use to allow for adjusting the headspace, but you never completely get rid of it. That's how places like Shilen and McGowan can offer drop in barrels for savages

I wanna say that on my 7.62x39 this gap over a go gauge turned out to be something like .007" many barrels run up closer to .010" of course when doing your own work you could get it down lower than that


EDIT: I took some measurements just now to verify this. A savage bolt head is plenty deep enough to swallow up the rim on a 30-30 case and leave plenty of meat on the extractor.

a 30-30 rim is .060" thick plus or minus a few thousandths

the case recess on a.473" head  as found on my 35whelen is over .110" deep

so you see for all practical purposes as far a as savage bolt is concerned the rim on 30-30 doesn't even exist.

[trotterlg]

This is how I would do it, the rim overhangs the face of the cone which has about .015 face on it's end.  The extractor has plenty of rim to grab and clears the breach of the barrel, just cut the cone a little taller than the depth of the Savage bolt face and you are set.  Larry

[billy_56081]

Perfect Larry, obviously I explained it well enough to you. That is how the 325/340s do it.

[R.W.Dale]

but completely unnecessary, unless you just have some sort of fixation on rim induced headspace.

You must think beyond the rim

[trotterlg]

You headspace on the rim of a rimmed cartridge for two reason, fist it is there and that is what it was put there for, number two is it is always in the same place, at the end of the cartridge, you cannot say that about the sholder, it can be any place along the entire length of the cartridge, and it was not intended to head space on.  You may get away with setting headspace off the sholder of a rimmed case, but I would never bet on it always being correct and would sure never deliver a rifle to someone that used that method if the cartridge was not designed for it.  Larry

[LaOtto222]

You have to short chamber the 30-30 to have the rim sticking out enough for the extractor to pick it up. Think about Larry's drawing without the cone. Just straight across the face of the chamber with the case sticking out about 3/16" or so. The chamber would be short chambered the depth of the distance from the bolt to the bolt face plus a few ten thousands for bolt clearance. Or fully chambered and enough of the chamber face machined away to leave the case sticking out the 3/16". Like cutting off the cone in Larry's drawing.

I think Larry's way would also work. I believe it is the traditional way of doing a rimmed case in a bolt action.

With the case sticking out the rear of the chamber so far - The only thing I would worry about is if the web of a 30-30 case goes up far enough to get inside the chamber. If it doesn't there is going to be a rupture right there and possibly a separated case head. But I may be worrying about nothing. a Regular rimless case sticks out too and they do not rupture.

If you had access to a lathe, this probably would not be a big deal to do - either way. Getting a gunsmith to do it might take some hunting to find one willing to do it. I do not think that any of the well known barrel makers would make a 30-30 barrel for a bolt and short chamber it or modify the barrel for the cone.

I any case I think it would have to be a single shot proposition only. Just too many problems getting a magazine modified to feed reliably.

[billy_56081]

Well in responce to 3006bluffhunter's original question, yes you can make a Savage 11 into a 30-30 win, if you want to fire factory ammo reliably make your barrel as Larry drew it there to headspace on the rim. If you want a probably more accurate custom, target style 30-30 you can headspace off the shoulder as krochus suggests. If you headspace off the shoulder you will need to fire form and necksize only your brass.

[3006bluffhunter]

Thanks to all the replies on this topic! I was tying to build a nice starter rifle for my son to start whitetail hunting with! The remington 788 is way out priced and hard to find for sale! I will find him something with lower recoil that can do a good job at 100 yards or less! Thanks Again! Dale

[R.W.Dale]

Thanks to all the replies on this topic! I was tying to build a nice starter rifle for my son to start whitetail hunting with! The remington 788 is way out priced and hard to find for sale! I will find him something with lower recoil that can do a good job at 100 yards or less! Thanks Again! Dale

In that case just buy a Handi in 30-30, In my opinion the safest and most beginner friendly hunting platform made. The only thing they need remember is not to cock the hammer till their ready to shoot

Or a bolt action in any of two dozen low recoiling deer cartridges would be much more cost and labor effective than custom building a 30-30

[Frank46]

Been following the posts here and always wondered why savage has not offered a 110 or whatever model for cast bullet shooting. I like the cone breech idea. I've a winchester 54 action that was made for the 30-30. Flat face, extractor cut like a model 70 and what they did was extend part of the barrel in the form of a ring except for the extractor cut. Same basic idea as the cone breech in form as well as execution. I have the bbl stub that came with it and its very easy to duplicate. Think as far as accuracy the 30-30 is way underated. Most folks assume its use to be for deer and hunting. But in a serious, purpose built rifle would shock a lot of folks as to how well it would shoot. Forget about 170 or 150 round nosed bullets. Match bullets in 155gr or even 168's with a 1x12 twist. And as Larry has shown the lighter 30 caliber bench rest bullets with a slower twist work extremely well. And lets not forget cast bullets, that's why I mentioned the 1x12 twist. Very interesting thread here. Shame to let it die. And don't forget
the various single shots like the newer winchester's or rolling blocks that are chambered for the 30-30. Frank