Author Topic: .45LC or 45-70 for our new primitive season? (Read 1984 times)

jpshaw · « **on:** December 08, 2008, 04:40:24 PM »

Louisiana had its first primitive season and I actually missed it. I need something for next year and have a .44 barrel (2002 overbore and not very accurate) and a .357 barrel. Law states it must be .38 or larger so .357, which is accurate, is questionable. One warden said it was legal since its just a souped up .38 but another I called said .357 is not .38. I want a barrel that none would question. I first thought the .45 LC would be the answer but, hey, does reloading component cost that much more just to get the .45-70. Loads would be on the upper end of trapdoor loads probably. Thinking 250 if .45LC or 350 if .45-70 at about 1600 fps for both. Input from you guys that own these barrels would be appreciated.

Default · « **Reply #1 on:** December 08, 2008, 04:59:16 PM »

Well i have a 45 LC Uberti 1866 Winnie golden boy replica (brass recievered) and matching 45 LC uberti colt cattlemens revolver both love the Speer gold dot 250 gr flying ashtray ..

No as for reloading the 45 LC like the old 45/70 can be loaded super hot IF ...... I stress IF the action can handle it...My brass reciever while alot better then the originals were is still brass so i have to stick with modest loads ... the H&R handis are quite a bit tuffer .. i know my brothers sb2 45/70 can handle the hottest listed safari loads for that rifle ... I dont know what reciever there are placing the 45lc on .. But if its the sb2 or a barrel placed on a sb2 i would think that you could easily achive 44 Mag character ballistics it you go through your loading data for that caliber .... With my lever action 45lc i have taken a number of pigs .. though i wasnt reloading for it the second to the last time i went hunting for hog and stuck with the accurate 250 gr gold dots ..Got two 100 -100+ pounders and later the next day hooked into a 200+ hog and let um have it in the boiler room....Bang .. Flop Errr what the hell.. he got up ..
Well as is with hog hunting , the ashtray did all it could do with that tough booger ... Anyways im getting of track .. reason for all that is to say this .. If you dont reload you are a bit limited in what you can get for this dandy cartridge ...On the other hand if you reload , Take advantage of the soft points

Default

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** December 08, 2008, 05:05:10 PM »

38-55, 45 Colt, 444, 45-70 and 500 S&W all qualify, so would a 445 Supermag, a good hand rechamber choice for your 44mag barrel.

The 45 Colt can be hand rechambered to 454 Casull or 460S&W too, but since you already have the 44mag, that's what I'd do. But since you don't have a 45-70, that's probably the best choice, everyone should have at least one or two of em!!

Tim

jpshaw · « **Reply #3 on:** December 08, 2008, 05:13:53 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on December 08, 2008, 05:05:10 PM

38-55, 45 Colt, 444, 45-70 and 500 S&W all qualify, so would a 445 Supermag, a good hand rechamber choice for your 44mag barrel. The 45 Colt can be hand rechambered to 454 Casull or 460S&W too, but since you already have the 44mag, that's what I'd do. But since you don't have a 45-70, that's probably the best choice, everyone should have at least one or two of em!! ;DTim

Wouldn't the .445 Supermag rechamber still be a .433 overbore for that round also or is the .445 a larger diameter bore? What I'm asking is, would the .445 be more accurate then the .44 with that larger then normal bore?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** December 08, 2008, 05:25:04 PM »

There's a ton of posts on how happy the 445 Supermag shooters are on here, all were done on the older barrels, even those that shot hot 300gr XTP loads in their 44mags got acceptable accuracy. Between the 1:38" twist and big bores, it takes some powder behind them to shoot good, the 445SM does that, just don't expect it to shoot weanie loads good, that will be a disappointment as you probably already know.

Tim

Quote from: Ditchdigger on August 31, 2006, 04:47:24 PM

When mine was still a 44 mag,it liked the 300 gr.XTP's and a max load of H110 seated in the second channellure. It's a 445 supermag now and the 180 gr. XTP's shoot very good with 36.5 grs. of 296 for about 2450 fps. Digger

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,74558.msg459363.html#msg459363

jpshaw · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2008, 05:48:36 PM »

Questions on this .445 conversion.
1. Where do you get the chamber reamer to do it?
2. Does this reamer just fit on a 1/2 inch socket?
3. Can you still use the .44 Mag dies?
4. Can you get .445 brass or do you get .444 brass and cut it down?
Sorry about all the questions but I'm trying to make a decision here. BTW Thanks for the input Tim.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** December 08, 2008, 06:10:14 PM »

Some have talked about using 444 brass to avoid the "bulge", but I don't recollect anyone actually trying it, there's quite a difference between 44mag and 444, some think the 444 is an extended version of the 44mag, but one look at the case dimension will tell you that's not true, but it may be a better choice if it can be chambered after being cut down.

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd44remingtonmagnum.jpg

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd444marlin.jpg

445SM brass is a made by Starline, the reamer can be rented from GBO sponsor 4D, see the GBO home page for the sponsor list. 44 Mag dies work fine. See Hand Reaming the 357mag to 357Max in the FAQs for the basics of hand reaming.

Tim

http://www.grafs.com/product/200139

Sourdough · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2008, 08:48:13 PM »

First of all, the .357 is a .38 cal cartridge. All .38s shoot a .357 bullet.

As for the .45LC or 45-70, I'd go with the 45-70. Versatility is the name of the game, and gun weights would not be differant between a .45LC or a 45-70. A 45-70 can be down loaded for a very mild shooter, with a slow shove for recoil, that kids can handle well. Or it can be loaded to the Lever gun loads that can be a real stomper. These heavy loads are capable of taking anything in North America. You can load pistol bullets in the 45-70, but you can not load the heavy rifle bullets in the .45LC.

I have a couple of friends that retired and moved to Louisiana, They both got H&R 45-70s for the primitive hunts. Both claim at 100 yards they are getting one big hole when shooting five rounds at a paper target. Since ranges are close, around 40 yards on the average, both are loading on the mild side. Starting loads for the Trapdoor tables. Both guys are claiming complete bullet pass throughs, with no destroyed meat due to hemorrhage. Deer go down on the spot, and don't get up.

Lon371 · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2008, 11:36:27 PM »

Quote

One warden said it was legal since its just a souped up .38 but another I called said .357 is not .38. I want a barrel that none would question

I am not sure why there is a question at all. As long as the gun specifies .357 and not .38.

Also I think they need to go back and rewrite the specs on the weapons. Some can be in a .38 and others not??

Quote

· Sharps rifles or replicas
· Remington Rollingblock rifles or replicas
· Ballard rifles
· Maynard rifles or carbines
· Burnside carbines
· Frank Wesson rifles
· Farrow rifles
· Remington Hepburn rifles
· M1873-1888 Springfield (Trapdoor) rifles and carbines and replicas
· Snider (British) rifles and replicas
· Wesson & Harrington 1871 rifles
· New England Firearms or Harrington & Richardson Handi rifles in caliber larger than .38
· Winchester M1885 Hi Wall or Lo Wall rifles or replicas (Also Browning B78 or 1885) .38 or larger
· Knight KP-1 in caliber .38 or larger
· CVA Optima Elite in caliber .38 or larger
· Traditions Pursuit break-open single shot in .38 caliber or larger

Hmm, maybe I missed somthing, I thought a .38 was a .38

STUMPJMPR · « **Reply #9 on:** December 09, 2008, 01:44:11 AM »

Mississippi had the same problem with 38 caliber... They went back and rewrote it to specify 35 caliber or larger.... Alot of people went out and got a 38-55 but the bore diameter is really smaller than 38 caliber, so they clarified it by just dropping it to 35 caliber and this covers the 38-55 with a bunch of others..

jpshaw · « **Reply #10 on:** December 09, 2008, 02:44:00 AM »

I don't want to take a chance on this .357/.38 thing. Right now its up to the individual warden if you loose your hunting privileges, your gun and are fined. I just would feel better being over that limit. One warden will go by the designation (.38) the other by the ruler (.357). I just wished that stupid .44 barrel was .429 and I wouldn't have this problem. If I have to get another barrel I'm not taking a chance on another .44 to see if it has problems too. I will just get a .45 (.452) or .45-70 (.458) if Tims conversion doesn't work and let the warden slap his calibers on that.

Smallgroups · « **Reply #11 on:** December 09, 2008, 03:20:05 AM »

I have both. NEF 45-70. H&R CC in 45 C.

45-70 accuracy testing with my handloads and a telescopic sight produced excellent results. You can go mild or wild recoil-wise. The upper end of the reloading data for modern lever rifles being wild, and more than I need or like for local wildlife.

45 C accuracy testing with my handloads and a telescopic sight (QR rings) are still in progress but promising. Recoil is well mannered and the brass comes out ready for more. This caliber offers plenty of power in my estimation for any critters I might encounter locally. Carolina. Probably fine in your area also. I can see this rifle becoming one of my favs.

Best

R-

Tunaman · « **Reply #12 on:** December 09, 2008, 03:28:23 AM »

Jp,
keep in mind that as the La. law currently reads, the cartridge has to have been in use before 1900. This only applies for La and not for Mississippi. I hunt both and in La, you have to be pretty careful that you are complient with this part of the regulation. Most of our Game wardens in La, actually know what they are talking about when it comes to guns, and know what is legal. I like the 45-70 for both states although I do have a 35 wheelen for Mississippi but I generally use the 45-70 in both states. I have both a Knght KP1 and a handi in 45-70 and I will tell you that the Handi is hands down a better rifle. I would pickup a handi 45-70, you will not be dissapointed.

Tunaman · « **Reply #13 on:** December 09, 2008, 03:42:24 AM »

Quote from: Tunaman on December 09, 2008, 03:28:23 AM

Jp,
keep in mind that as the La. law currently reads, the cartridge has to have been in use before 1900. This only applies for La and not for Mississippi. I hunt both and in La, you have to be pretty careful that you are complient with this part of the regulation. Most of our Game wardens in La, actually know what they are talking about when it comes to guns, and know what is legal. I like the 45-70 for both states although I do have a 35 wheelen for Mississippi but I generally use the 45-70 in both states. I have both a Knght KP1 and a handi in 45-70 and I will tell you that the Handi is hands down a better rifle. I would pickup a handi 45-70, you will not be dissapointed.

I just reread this thread and I realized that Tim was not sugesting that you hunt with the 445 or 460 so i guess that most of my post is moot. Sorry about that but I do still suggest the 45-70 Handi.

jpshaw · « **Reply #14 on:** December 09, 2008, 04:30:04 AM »

Quote from: Tunaman on December 09, 2008, 03:28:23 AM

Jp,
keep in mind that as the La. law currently reads, the cartridge has to have been in use before 1900. This only applies for La and not for Mississippi. I hunt both and in La, you have to be pretty careful that you are complient with this part of the regulation. Most of our Game wardens in La, actually know what they are talking about when it comes to guns, and know what is legal. I like the 45-70 for both states although I do have a 35 wheelen for Mississippi but I generally use the 45-70 in both states. I have both a Knght KP1 and a handi in 45-70 and I will tell you that the Handi is hands down a better rifle. I would pickup a handi 45-70, you will not be dissapointed.

The way I read it, it never said the cartridge had to be designed before 1900, just the rifle. Designed, not made. The NEF was listed in the exceptable column. The only cartridge designation was .38 or larger. If the cartridge had to be designed before 1900 that would rule out .357 and .44 Mag, leaving only the .38 Spl and .44 S&W. Neither would be a decent deer cartridge. It seems as if the .45-70 would be a safe bet on legal aspects.

Tunaman · « **Reply #15 on:** December 09, 2008, 04:47:08 AM »

I just went to the LDWF site and read the regs again and I agree that you are correct. That was in the draft that was passed by the Legislature but it was either dropped or left out. I apologize about any confusion. They may have taken that rule out when Mississippi changed there regs.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #16 on:** December 09, 2008, 05:06:57 AM »

This an interseting thread, I wish KY would adopt a simular law. But a problem I see is a .38 special or .357 are niether one .38 cal they are .36 cal, same gose for a .35rem or .35 whealen, a .38-55 or .375 winny are .38s as in .377 to .381 dia. I don't know why Colt called it a .38 but a .357 bullet is a .36cal, .36 cal BP pistols are .356 or 7 dia normally. Makes no diffrence here thou I can only use centerfires during modern gun. Oddly enuff a .25ACP is leagal to hunt with here silly as that sounds.

BTW a .45-70 is a no brainer it works, and I love mine. Get one you won't be sorry.

jpshaw · « **Reply #17 on:** December 09, 2008, 05:38:14 AM »

I would like to know how the .45LC compares in weight to the .45-70. I know the .45LC is 2" shorter and neither would be a problem. I don't want a really heavy barrel seeing as I don't plan on loading much more then "trapdoor level" loads in it. With the size of either bore I can't see whether either would be that heavy unless the .45-70 has no tapper at all from the forearm forward. Any of you guys like Smallgroups who has both could let me know how each feels I would appreciate it.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #18 on:** December 09, 2008, 05:43:20 AM »

I don't have a .45 but I do have the .45-70 and 6 or 7 other handies and there really isn't enuff diffrence in any of them to make it that noticable to me. I am looking at a .45 thou as I just like pistol cartridges in rifles. I have no other use for it than that but will prolly get one when I get back to work.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** December 09, 2008, 05:47:15 AM »

I removed a couple scopes just for you JP!!

The 22" 45-70 barrel weighs 56oz, 45LC without sights weighs 49oz, both with a scope rail.

Tim

jpshaw · « **Reply #20 on:** December 09, 2008, 06:53:27 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on December 09, 2008, 05:47:15 AM

I removed a couple scopes just for you JP!! The 22" 45-70 barrel weighs 56oz, 45LC without sights weighs 49oz, both with a scope rail.Tim

Wow! Thanks. I never entended for anyone to take a scope off though. Now you have to re-sight it.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** December 09, 2008, 07:25:52 AM »

Not really, it will still be on paper at 100yds, Burris Sig Zees are close when reinstalled if I just remove the scope and rings as a unit, and I'm still working on loads for both rifles, in fact the 45-70 was only bore sighted IIRC,

and the 460S&W(45LC) I'm switching bullets from 250gr SST to 300gr SST and 240gr XTP mags on the next range trip.

Tim

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #22 on:** December 09, 2008, 07:29:42 AM »

Quick your the cat meow. shame we live so for apart I think I'd enjoy a nice dinner and talk with a feller of your calibur and experiance.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** December 09, 2008, 07:39:04 AM »

Thanks Bob, that would be great if we all lived a bit closer, I've had the pleasure of lunch and dinner with several other members, but they all lived lots closer, it's always been wonderful!!

I even had the opportunity to meet with Fred for lunch when he was coming thru town on his way north earlier this year, but I had the punys and didn't want to share the bug with him and his wife. $:-\$

Tim

Smallgroups · « **Reply #24 on:** December 10, 2008, 03:35:58 AM »

jp

Quick was too quick for me but my bathroom scale indicates the weights he listed are correct. Strangely this same device is an unmitigated liar when more massive objects are placed on it. I'll add to Quick's real-world data that the the 45-70 feels a little more weighty in the hand but not much in my estimation.

Weight is important but so is balance. IMnsHO these two Handis balance pretty well regardless of caliber. Have yet to handle the BC but that long barrel might be an exception. Having said, even though my rifles spend more time at the range than being carried over the countryside my 45-70 has swivels and a sling. I’ve only take her out once or twice but carrying it by a sling makes life wonderful. The front swivel attaches to the barrel not the forend and I really like that way of attaching the front end of the sling.
I have yet to cowboy-up and drill the stock on the CC as it comes with a very nice walnut stock. We shall see.

Best

S-

jpshaw · « **Reply #25 on:** December 10, 2008, 03:42:27 AM »

With Tims info I can say the .45-70 is not that heavy at all. I have posted the weights for the two sets of stocks I have. One is a typical rifle set with lugs for a sling. The other is a shotgun set (on an SB2 frame BTW) that I have cut to a straight "English" pattern. I just love straight stocks. For some reason the straight stocks are heavier then the rifle stocks. Wood must vary or its all that Linseed oil I put on it. All weights are with scope base but no scope or rings and no sights.

  Straight stock in .45LC 6 lbs 1.9 oz
  Straight stock in .45-70 6 lbs 8.9 oz
  Rifle stock in .45LC 5 lbs 15.3 oz
  Rifle stock in .45-70 6 lbs 6.3 oz

BTW I agree with Smallgroups on the balance thing. I have a Pardner in 12 ga 28" (27.5 actual) that balances on the hinge pin and is a joy to carry in the woods. I just use that long barrel to "twirl" those spider webs we get in the beginning of the season out of the way.

45-70.gov · « **Reply #26 on:** December 10, 2008, 04:29:42 AM »

my take on your situation

44 mag ... get over sized mould or find oversize slugs[posibly a gbo member]
44Sol...if law requires???.......use old Keith loads...rifle has more power that 44 mag pistol
45 colt.... if you ever plan to have a companion revolver
460 S&W....use 45colt for small game or for legality
500S&W....if your moving up move way up

45-70government.................the no brainner answer.....life is incomplete without one

i think you could beat it in court or at least get judgement with held
and a lawyer will only cost a little more than all the guns i just listed

Smallgroups · « **Reply #27 on:** December 10, 2008, 11:48:42 AM »

Weight & length-wise and from the standpoint of handling characterists the 45 Colt and 45-70 NEFs/H&Rs stack up reasonably well against many light/ultralight bolt guns costing 2-3x more, just different calibers. The Handis may be more utiliatarian but they are still capable.

But we all knew that.

S

kawie · « **Reply #28 on:** December 10, 2008, 12:04:57 PM »

hey tim just a quick question on the 45 colt using the sst,can u load the .451 bullets or do they have to be the .452.if u can use the .451 the harvester pt gold muzzleloader bullets look kind of interresting.i have no reloading experience so this is just a question that interest me.im really thinking of picking up the 45 bc carbine.thanks

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** December 10, 2008, 12:56:58 PM »

I don't think .451" bullets would be as accurate, mine slugs 4525" in the grooves and .4465" at the lands, but ya never know, try em and let us know!!

Tim