Author Topic: 12 ga. or 45/70... (Read 1300 times)

sooter · « **on:** December 07, 2008, 03:05:41 PM »

I have been contemplating between two specific H&R's for the past 5 or 6 years and still cannot make up my mind and hope you guys can persuade me one way or another.

If given the choice and you had the money for one or the other, would you pick the 45/70 or the 12 ga .Ultra Slug Gun - both with laminated stocks???

I have shot the 12 ga. slug gun before and getting 1 inch groups at 100 yards off the bench was not a problem. I have never shot a 45/70 before and do not know what kind of accuracy you can get from them. Plain and simple, how accurate is the 45/70 with handloads?

MSP Ret · « **Reply #1 on:** December 07, 2008, 03:24:38 PM »

Shame on you buddy!!! Over that last 5 or 6 years you could have had them both and had them paid for. Most likely at a good price as well if you had just kept an eye on the classifieds. My suggestion is to start now and check the classifieds every day. If you see just a 12 or 20 gauge USH barrel (with the forearm of course) buy it and fit it to the proper shotgun or rifle frame, which you may already have. The 20 gauge USH barrel will work on any shotgun or centerfire frame while the 12 gauge USH barrel can only be fitted to a 10 gauge frame.... Best of luck and Merry CHRISTmas....<><....

P.S. - my 45-70 with a 22" barrel shoots cloverleafs at 100 yards with handloads of 350 grain Hornady RN and RNFP bullets and 28.0 grains of 2400 powder. Many others here also have 45-70's that shoot one hole groups at 100 yards....<><....

sooter · « **Reply #2 on:** December 07, 2008, 03:49:25 PM »

Money is not an issue. I just don't want to be dissapointed like what I was when I bought my 500 S&W. With the 12 ga., it will be shot with nothing but factory loaded ammuniton but in the 45/70, I'll reload for it. ONE HOLE GROUPS AT 100 YARDS! And there are a lot of guys over here that are doing that? Would some of you other guys be willing to share your favorite powders and bullets used?

Merry CHRISTmas

petemi · « **Reply #3 on:** December 07, 2008, 05:04:12 PM »

A week ago yesterday I dumped a deer at 220 yards with a Handi .45-70. I don't think the 12 ga. will do that. They both work fine at closer ranges. Why shorten your possibilities unless required by law? Get the .45-70.......NOW....Don't wait or one of us'll grab it out from under you.

Merry Christmas all.

Pete

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** December 07, 2008, 05:17:28 PM »

I have five H&R 45-70s, 2 BCs(1 rechambered to 45-120), 2 Handis and an SS Ultra Hunter, they all shoot excellent as do all H&R 45-70s, they're just a great choice to have fun making big holes in anything you want to shoot, about the most fun you can have with your clothes on!! It and the 30-30 are a couple of the must have H&R chamberings, the 45-70 can be loaded from mild to wild, the 28gr 2400/350gr Hornady load that MSP mentioned has no recoil and is very accurate, there are numerous cast bullet loads that shoot exceptionally well too, but I tend to go the other way and shoot on the wild side, whether it's the 300gr Nosler PPs at 2400+fps, or 300gr TSX-FBs at 2300fps, 350gr Hornadys at 2100fps, all are lights out accurate.

Tim

sooter · « **Reply #5 on:** December 07, 2008, 07:46:06 PM »

Way to go Pete and congratulations.

Excellent shooting Tim, I'm impressed.

Do the long barreled B.C's shoot any better or worse than the regular length 45/70 barrels do?

I see three different loadings in the various reloading manuals. What is the SAFEST maximum working pressure limit of the 45/70 in the H&R?

Default · « **Reply #6 on:** December 07, 2008, 08:03:10 PM »

Sooter the H&R rifles can handle all three listings .... I know tuff lil boogers huh ... I like Tim load up Safari Class loads for my little brothers handi 45/70 havent found a perfect load yet ( I stress yet) but after seeing Tim's secret recipe i might give his loadings a try

... It goes with out saying though .. to work your way up , And that the Third listing loads in reloading manuals are beasts ... ErrrR no let me rephrase that BEASTS !! I shoot hot and heavy 300 mags all day (220 gr and 60 rounds is a short session) and those 45/70s i load for my brother just abuse me lol ... I like it though , Call me funny if you must

...

As for the original question of this thread ... Go 45/70 like was said you can go mild ( easy going low recoil days ) Or WILD "WHERE THE HELL DID MY SHOULDER GO !!" days ... Little limited with slug guns when compared in my opinion..

Default

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:48:16 AM »

I would go .45-70 also I love mine and I've shot both the BC and standard handie and while the BC is really nice I much prefer the shorter barrel for hunting, I took a nice 8pt with mine at 150+ yards with 405gr hardcast handload hit him right where I aimed, He now hangs around in my living room.

Slug guns are nice .45-70s are nicer I also think the loading available for the gov make it muck more versitale.

Lazermule · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2008, 02:55:47 AM »

Go with the 45/70 hands down.

I am using Barnes bullets over VV N133 and it is working well. Not quite as good as Tim yet, but I only have 40-50 rounds through it. I also have loaded Remington 300 grn HP (cheap) over the same powder and it shoots those well too.

It is a neat gun and like they say mild to wild, but I haven't tried the mild side yet.

John Boy · « **Reply #9 on:** December 08, 2008, 03:02:28 AM »

Quote

Plain and simple, how accurate is the 45/70 with handloads?

Sooter - the 45-70 is Real Accurate ... Will the 45-70 Shoot a 1000 Yards?

My vote - buy the 45-70!

jpshaw · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2008, 05:16:49 AM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on December 07, 2008, 03:24:38 PM

P.S. - my 45-70 with a 22" barrel shoots cloverleafs at 100 yards with handloads of 350 grain Hornady RN and RNFP bullets and 28.0 grains of 2400 powder. Many others here also have 45-70's that shoot one hole groups at 100 yards....<><....

Whats the velocity on that load MSP?

sooter · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2008, 06:14:05 PM »

Thank's for all the information guys. I think I'll go visit my sporting goods dealer tomorrow

.

Is there a "preferred" powder that most all 45/70's like? I think I will start with bullets in the 300-400 grain weight range. Also, do you use magnum or standard primers in the 45/70???

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2008, 06:28:02 PM »

I like H4198, good velocity for 300gr stout loads, RL7 is another good choice for 22" barrels.

That wouldn't apply for the 32" barrels tho, I get lots better velocity in the BC with H322 with 350gr bullets. 300gr bullets with H4198 only yields about 25fps velocity increase in the 10" longer barrel, where 150-200fps is possible with the right powder and bullet combo.

Tim

bluecow · « **Reply #13 on:** December 09, 2008, 04:14:01 AM »

why 12g. when hastings is offering that 3 1/2 20g. never seen one to hold but it sure do make you think.

sooter · « **Reply #14 on:** December 09, 2008, 02:31:41 PM »

Okay boys, here is what I did today - i bought 2 guns!

Gun #1 - stainless steel 45/70 with a 24" barrel. I traded in the thumbhole stock set for a regular H&R Ultra laminated stock set.

Gun #2 - Buffalo Classic in 45/70. I had the metal butt plate removed and a simms recoil pad installed in it's place and the stocks length cut to fit me.

Here is what is going on now. Neither barrel had a "throat" in it and the crowns looked like puppy poopy. I had my dealer box both guns back up and sent them to my gunsmith. Both triggers will be adjusted to 2 1/2 pounds / the crowns on both barrels will be recut / both barrels will be rethroated / the buffalo classic barrel will be cut back just enough to remove the front sight dovetail / both forends will be properly bedded and last but not least, both barrels and scope bases will be modified to 8-40 screws and the base will be bedded to the barrel. I also picked up a couple sets of burris "z" rings as well as a set of dies, powder and bullets. I got several different 300 and 350 grain bullets and the powders that Tim and MSP Ret use in their guns. I'll be deciding on scopes while the guns are gone and as soon as I can make up my mind on that, I'll go ahead and get them heading my way.

After i get my guns back from being overhauled and get in a little range time, i'll let you guys know how things turn out. Thanks for the load information and imput on the 45/70 itself. I think it will be a pretty good choice and if i can make myself limit the shooting range to under 200 yards, should be fine.

Scope wise, how bad id the recoil going to be on scopes? Do i need to go with the better top end scopes or what?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** December 09, 2008, 02:42:01 PM »

Congrats, that's a true Handiholic in action if I ever seen one, TWO 45-70s at a time!!

Some good scopes, the Bushnell Banner 1½-4½x32 in the budget dept, great scope for well under $100, a proven performer on M1895s, Nikon Omega 3-9x40 if you want to spend about double that, the 5" of fixed eye relief is real nice IMO, both will require high or extra high rings if you don't mod the hammer tho, medium if you do. Leupold VX1 or VXII if you don't want to mess with the hammer and still use medium rings, they're very Handi friendly due to the small power ring.

Tim

45-70.gov · « **Reply #16 on:** December 09, 2008, 02:46:50 PM »

worst case of handiholism i ever saw........may ever appear we need a 47-70 forum

sooter · « **Reply #17 on:** December 09, 2008, 02:55:16 PM »

Tim,

since you are THE MAN when it comes to these particular single shots, i was looking at the burris short mag scopes that they offer. Will the medium height rings work with this particular scope? I just cant make myself go to HIGH rings and have to keep my cheek off the stock in order to make a shot. If i have to go to high rings, i may go with a couple of weaver grand slam scopes. Do you have any experience with these?

Lazermule · « **Reply #18 on:** December 09, 2008, 03:58:03 PM »

Quote from: 45-70.gov on December 09, 2008, 02:46:50 PM

worst case of handiholism i ever saw........may ever appear we need a 47-70 forum

A 45/70 forum? Now that'd be cool!

LAZER

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** December 09, 2008, 05:37:21 PM »

Quote from: sooter on December 09, 2008, 02:55:16 PM

i was looking at the burris short mag scopes that they offer. Will the medium height rings work with this particular scope? If i have to go to high rings, i may go with a couple of weaver grand slam scopes. Do you have any experience with these?

Can't help ya with either one of em, have no experience with them. Just looking at the GS scopes, they appear to have a large power ring which isn't Handi friendly. The short mags appear to be discontinued, by the pics I found they look like they might be too short to mount so the power ring is just behind the hammer, I have 3 of the FFIIs, they'll mount in medium rings that way.

Tim

sooter · « **Reply #20 on:** December 10, 2008, 03:44:01 PM »

Tim,

this may be a moot point here but how hard is the 45/70 on scopes as far as recoil goes? Me and recoil don't get along (arthur-itis) and after thinking on it all night, I called my gunsmith today and told him to install a muzzle break onto each barrel. This way, I can also let my 9 year old grandson shoot one with me and not have to worry about him getting beat up every time he pulls the trigger and believe me, he DOES like to shoot.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** December 10, 2008, 04:04:48 PM »

With trapdoor or less loads they can be very light recoiling, but I'd be very cautious of muzzle brakes for kids, the redirected muzzle blast isn't nice and may be worse than the recoil, can't stand them myself. I remove the brake from my UltraComps when I shoot em, they aren't nice to the shooters next to me either even with good hearing protection. $:-\$

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

45-70.gov · « **Reply #22 on:** December 11, 2008, 06:46:37 AM »

will a break work on a low preasure round like this??

or will they just work for the gun$mith?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #23 on:** December 11, 2008, 07:36:07 AM »

45-70 Contender shooters seem to like brakes.

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #24 on:** December 31, 2008, 05:46:48 PM »

"Quote from: MSP Ret on December 07, 2008, 09:24:38 PM
P.S. - my 45-70 with a 22" barrel shoots cloverleafs at 100 yards with handloads of 350 grain Hornady RN and RNFP bullets and 28.0 grains of 2400 powder. Many others here also have 45-70's that shoot one hole groups at 100 yards....<><....

Whats the velocity on that load MSP?"

I have been trying to get someone here that shoots my favorite 45-70 load to chronograph it but those here that have a chronograph do not load it. My friend and great member here Atlaw has offered to chrono it for me/us. I have been lazy and have not sent him a handful to shoot but it is on my list of "to do's". Either myself or he will post the results...<><....

BBF · « **Reply #25 on:** January 01, 2009, 06:40:10 AM »

Which of the loads did you check? I am amazed you would get that much V out of 28 gr of powder.

petemi · « **Reply #26 on:** January 01, 2009, 07:08:22 AM »

Quote from: sooter on January 01, 2009, 06:20:43 AM

MSP Ret,

I shot both barrels over the chronograph just a little while ago and clocked the 30" barrel at 2,729 fps. and the 24" barrel at 2,412 fps..

That means I've got to go out in this blizzard and move my targets back a quarter of a mile

Happy New Year, All.

Pete

AtlLaw · « **Reply #27 on:** January 02, 2009, 05:31:25 AM »

Quote from: MSP Ret on December 31, 2008, 05:46:48 PM

Either myself or he will post the results...<><....

Heck Andy! If I wasn't so lazy I'd take 5 minutes and track down which of the 350 gr. bullets are of the stouter construction, i.e. - for 458 WM velocities, and buy some to play with myself! Along with some 2400 which I 'spose I can use for 44 Mag. hunting loads... $:-\$

But what's the hurry? We only been talking about this for a year or so!

BBF · « **Reply #28 on:** January 02, 2009, 06:52:41 AM »

I e-mailed Hdy in regards to the 350 RN. They wrote back saying 1800 fps MV as a min. for reliable expansion. The FN bullet they use in the 450 Marlin isn't a softie either.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #29 on:** January 02, 2009, 08:40:52 AM »

Quote from: BBF on January 02, 2009, 06:52:41 AM

1800 fps MV as a min. for reliable expansion.

Coolness and light!

I shall add a box to my wish list or pick up some at the gun show tomorrow along with a pound of 2400 ... No deer hunting for me this weekend.