Author Topic: what youth cartridge for elk (Read 3044 times)

JonD. · « **on:** December 06, 2008, 07:02:25 AM »

I recently entered my 9 yr.old daughter and I in our elk lottery. She has a .223 Handi and has taken her first deer with it. She got three small bucks in the scope this year but was unable to get a shot off. She really can shoot as good as I can as long as she has a good solid rest. I got the .223 because I was worried about recoil for her, and I want to get her a bigger cartridge for deer hunting. I want to get one she can use on elk in case we do get drawn. The minimum bullet diameter requirement for elk in our state is .270. I worry about recoil. She can't shoot any of my guns due to the long stock length, and the only Handi I have is in .35 Whelen which is way too much for her to try and swap stocks to see if she can handle a bigger gun. What catridge would you guys suggest with lighter recoil for deer, but is still big enough for elk. Can a youth handle a 7-08 OK? What about .308? I've never shot either one of these cartridges so I have no idea about the recoil, or if they would be a good elk round. A 30-30 has considerably less recoil, but is it big enough for elk at close range?

What barrel do you guys think I should get?

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #1 on:** December 06, 2008, 07:10:33 AM »

The 7mm-08 loaded with 140g Nosler Part. or Barnes TSX in 120,130 or 140g would be excellent as would a 30-30 loaded with 130 or 150 Barnes or 150 Partition. Not sure, but you might want to check out the 6.8 and see what that looks like. Actually, many Elk have been harvested with 243, 30-30's 7mm-08's ect in Montana, but mostly by people who live here and can pass on shots that aren't perfect. DP

billy_56081 · « **Reply #2 on:** December 06, 2008, 07:18:57 AM »

I agree with DPE either the 7mm-08 or the 30-30 should work fine. In fact I'd say either would work great even if downloaded. Here is my best advice, my daughter was pretty recoil shy, so for practice rounds in her 30-30 I loaded light loads and let her practice all summer with them, when it came time for her bear hunt, i loaded it up with the full opoered stuff and she blasted the bear perfectly through the heart. She never noticed how much more the rifle recoiled when shooting game. I wouuld use a heavy for caliber bullet in either caliber for elk.

JonD. · « **Reply #3 on:** December 06, 2008, 07:25:49 AM »

Thanks a lot guys. I also need to enter one more factor to the equation, and that is I don't handload and must use factory ammo. Thanks!

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #4 on:** December 06, 2008, 07:28:18 AM »

I do believe you can get reduced recoil loads in 7mm 08, You might have to get a little closer but should work fine.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** December 06, 2008, 07:39:02 AM »

I think the 30-30 would be an excellent 100yd elk rifle for her, add a youth stock and you're all set, it's also one of the most accurate and reliably consistent of Handi chamberings. The 7mm-08 would also be a great rifle and is factory available in the compact with youth stock. Remington makes managed recoil ammo for both, although for the 30-30, I'd probably try to use regular ammo, the 150gr Rem Core-lokts shoot excellent in mine, 1" or less. Teach her to shoot tight behind the shoulder on good broadside shots and you'll be taking pics of her with her first elk for sure!!

Tim

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/centerfire/managed-recoil.asp

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #6 on:** December 06, 2008, 07:45:42 AM »

Well JonD, you have just uncovered a new hobby that needs to be learned, reloading! You will save $, can teach your daughter how to do it, shoot more with daughter and all in all spend more quality time with that great little huntin' pardner ya got. DP

dk17hmr · « **Reply #7 on:** December 06, 2008, 07:45:45 AM »

I have a 6.8 SPC, not a Handi but in an AR-15. That is .277 caliber same as a 270 win, the recoil in my rifle is about like a 223. If I have kids they will be using a 6.8, I took a big Michigan 9 pointer this year with mine and it did number on the heart, I pulled it out in 3 peices, caliber size entry hole 1.5" exit. Loaded with Noslers 110gr AccuBond I bet an elk wouldnt have much of a chance. Remington makes a 700 in 6.8, throw a youth stock on it and you would be good to go.

BUT
For a handi 270 or 7mm-08, Remington also makes Managed-recoil ammo in both of those.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** December 06, 2008, 07:53:32 AM »

Here are the exterior ballistics for the Remington ammo in both 30-30 and 7mm-08, the 125gr 30-30 ammo is a little light on 100yd energy IMO, I get 2330fps with the 150gr 30-30 ammo which is close to what they show.

Tim

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/comparative_ballistics_results.aspx?data=RL30301*R30301*R7M081*RL7M081

Spanky · « **Reply #9 on:** December 06, 2008, 08:06:39 AM »

I know I'm gonna catch some flack for this but here goes...

45-70

Remington 405's don't kick any more than a 30-30 and that big bullet will put any elk down.

My 9 yr. old niece and my 11 yr. old nephew shoot my 45-70 and neither one has a problem with recoil from trapdoor loads.

Spanky

JonD. · « **Reply #10 on:** December 06, 2008, 08:09:23 AM »

Thanks alot guys!!

One more question: what kind of accuracy are you guys getting out of your 7-08 Handi's? Since I already own a 30-30, and she will be able to use it later on as she grows up, A 7-08 barrel with managed recoil loads in her Handi is looking pretty good. Thanks again.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 06, 2008, 08:34:10 AM »

Jon, how about you try this, have her shoot managed recoil 30-30 for practice and sight it in for the full power loads for her hunt.

Rustyinfla · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2008, 09:04:59 AM »

  Yes Jon, you need to learn to reload... FOR YOUR DAUGHTER ( wink, wink)

   A fellow posted a picture on leverguns.com some time back of a moose he took in Alaska with a Winchester M64, .30-30.

I've never hunted outside of Florida, but I'd think if you could kill a moose with a .30-30 an elk would fall too.

  I see Remington makes a managed recoil version of the .30-30. I'm sure other companies do as well.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2008, 09:15:47 AM »

That reminds me, John Y Cannuck hunts moose with the 30-30, the pics are gone from the threads below tho.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,99743.msg1098266309.html#msg1098266309

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,74928.msg461684.html#msg461684

Spanky · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2008, 01:21:15 PM »

Am I the only one that thinks the 45-70 is a good choice??

Why would she be better off with a managed recoil (neutered) 7-08 or 30-30??

Trapdoor loads don't kick much at all in a Handi and the big bullet offers good penetration.

A youth stock set and a good scope and she'll be all set.

$:-\$

Spanky

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** December 06, 2008, 01:34:44 PM »

I dunno what the velocity of the 405gr Rem ammo is in a 22" Handi, but if it's close to 1300fps, it's got a good bit more recoil than 150gr bullets the 30-30, almost 19lbs compared to a little less that 11lbs for the 30-30 in a 7½lb rifle. Even if it's only going 1100fps, it's still got 14½lbs recoil which is more than either the 30-30 or 7mm-08, not a lot for an adult, but for a 9yr old young lady, might be a bit uncomfortable even with a Limbsaver. Rem 30-30 ammo is cheap compared to the 45-70 too, something else to consider, it's still less than $15 a box.

Tim

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

petemi · « **Reply #16 on:** December 06, 2008, 03:37:02 PM »

If you knew the shot on an elk was going to be within 100 yards or so, I guess the .30-30 would be fine. The 7mm-08 should handle them well at longer distances. I think the recoil on the .308 is mild with 168 gr. Winchester ammo, and you can come down to 150 gr. My .308 Handi recoils less than my 336 Marlin .30-30. I don't know how big your 9 year old is.

I guess, considering all, I'd get her the 7mm-08. It's a rifle she can enjoy the rest of her life.

BBF · « **Reply #17 on:** December 06, 2008, 06:12:33 PM »

Kids that age do come in considerable different displacements( size) so what is workable for one, may be way over the ability of another.
If this is going to be close range hunting I would think a 44 Rem Mag could do a good job without kicking the snot out of her.
I have a Ruger lever which is a very light gun and even with full loads it is a pleasure to shoot once I got rid of that mickey mouse butt plate.

GatCat · « **Reply #18 on:** December 07, 2008, 12:33:44 AM »

I would second the .44 mag, IF the shots will be 125 yards or so, Max. She could practice with .44 specials, then switch to a 240-265 grain bullet. Ideally, the 300 grain cast-core should be a great choice, but I think that may be a bit much in the recoil. Be sure the scope you use has a long eye-relief, use a youth stock and replace the standard recoil pad with a limbsaver, and she'll be good to go. Or, the .30-30 would be good, as mentioned.
Mark

MSP Ret · « **Reply #19 on:** December 07, 2008, 02:11:42 AM »

JonD., I have read all the above posts and have weighed and balanced the information, I believe the correct answer is obvious. Your daughter is 9, she shoots. you don't reload (yet) and you already have a 30-30. The correct answer has been given, Use the 30-30 you have as long as it fits your daughter well enough or get a youth stock for it or cut the stock down to her size. Have her practice with commercially available reduced recoil loads and hunt with full power 150 (or 170) grain loads. I would suggest only that you (not her) check the point of impact at the intended range between the reduced recoil loads and the full power loads before the hunt.
My daughter still remembers and speaks of "making bullets" with me when she was about your daughters age. A Handi in 30-30 would be a great choice for your daughter, simple, accurate, and easily fitted with a youth stock. It can easily have weight added to the buttstock to mitigate felt recoil and be fitted with any number of sighting options, open iron sights, receiver/peep sights, scopes, red dots or holographic sights. A Handi in 30-30 is very versatile with the large array of commercially available bullets, the gun is fairly inexpensive if you do have to buy one for her and the ammo is about the most inexpensive and widely available commercial centerfire ammunition. If (when) you handload you can use the 30-30 for anything from small varmints to most of America's largest game animals. Just be careful, It may become your favorite gun as well. Best of luck with the gun and the hunt...Marry Christmas....<><....

MTGlass · « **Reply #20 on:** December 07, 2008, 03:52:47 AM »

I'm partial to the 7mm-08 for kids. My daughter is 13 and has taken two elk and two deer with her 7-08 Handi.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,155426.msg1098671015.html#msg1098671015

MSP Ret makes good points.

When my daughter was starting with her Handi, I loaded reduced recoil loads for her. POI was easily 10" different than standard loads.

.30-30 will work, just get closer. Factory ammo is cheaper too.

Whatever you choose, have her practice, practice, practice. Get the mechanics of making a shot second nature so there's no fumbling when the time comes, then find that sweet spot (armpit) above the elbow & below the shoulder blade.

I quit carrying a gun when hunting with my daughter. It ends up as redundant dead weight and makes it easier for me to manage gear and get her a shot.

Best of luck to both of you!

Lazermule · « **Reply #21 on:** December 07, 2008, 04:03:15 AM »

+1 on the 7mm-08. My son was about 80 lbs when he started shooting his, and he managed it just fine. Loaded with the 140 Barnes, it would be an excellent combo. I believe you can buy this load off the shelf factory loaded, but you really need to start reloading as others said, (Wink, Wink).

The 7mm-08 is an excellent cartridge and as said, she can enjoy it for the rest of her life. Who know's, in 20 years she may just refer to it as "Old Dinner Bell", because when you hear it, it's time to eat......

LAZER

Cheesehead · « **Reply #22 on:** December 07, 2008, 04:46:01 AM »

If you plan on getting a new rifle for her I would choose a 308. even if you never reload. The 308 has over 100 different factory loadings including reduced recoil. I believe the 308 has the most factory loadings. Surplus NATO rounds can be had for reduced prices as compared to factory hunting ammo.

If you choose to reload the 308 is also a winner, many components available. If you are shopping for a rifle, the 308 again is a good choice, so many options. The 308 has great ballistics, a hard hitting medium power, flat shooter. Compare it on the Remington ballistic tables. A larger caliber than .277 or .284 would be good for elk. I have never been elk hunting so I will admit to some speculation. I have owned all the mentioned calibers.

The economics, in your case would be to give her your 30-30 as mentioned before.

Cheese

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #23 on:** December 07, 2008, 05:21:16 AM »

Yes, do invest the $ in a Limbsaver recoil pad. They are one of the products that really do what they advertise. My Wally world has the small slip-ons for about $18.00, or have one fitted. As said, just make sure the stock fits her as that also makes a world of difference. DP

Empty Quiver · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2008, 05:50:27 AM »

You are not the only one thinking 45/70 trapdoor loads. The shove type recoil is a good reason in and of itself. A 20 ga. shotgun is a pretty good comparison. I picked up some Ultramax ammo for mine and it is very soft shooting and would really be good for all summer practice then step it up for the hunt. It's loaded in Starline cases and would be a good start for a reloader.

7mm08 was recommended to me by a Montana outfitter, he thought it was much the same as a .308 but a little more shoulder friendly for my daughter. He showed no concern about being under gunned,bullet placement of course.

mangulator · « **Reply #25 on:** December 07, 2008, 06:45:45 AM »

The 30-30 would be a good choice for your daughter. But practice practice practice! I know several hunters here in Utah the uses a 30-30 to hunt Elk and they have been successful. If, you can afford the 7mm-08 it would also, be a good choice. Remember shot placement is everything! Shot the largest caliber your daughter is confortable with and practice and plus shot placement.

mcwoodduck · « **Reply #26 on:** December 07, 2008, 06:52:12 AM »

+1 for 308. For all the reasons Cheese gave.
Plus there are the Remington reduced recoil loads that have the same recoil as 243 with a 125grain bullet.
While 7-08 is a great round I do not always see it in shops and you will find 308 everywhere.

cbourbeau32 · « **Reply #27 on:** December 07, 2008, 08:46:03 AM »

Quote from: JonD. on December 06, 2008, 08:09:23 AM

Thanks alot guys!!

One more question: what kind of accuracy are you guys getting out of your 7-08 Handi's? Since I already own a 30-30, and she will be able to use it later on as she grows up, A 7-08 barrel with managed recoil loads in her Handi is looking pretty good. Thanks again.

I reload my Handi 7mm-08 to quite a bit below max load. I wouldn't say it was near the managed recoil loadings but at 50 yards (max distance at friends range) you could cover the center of the last 2 practice shots I took with a dime. Then when she grows up the 7mm will still be more than sufficient for her then.

billy_56081 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 07, 2008, 09:24:43 AM »

Hers an Idea, have her use your 30-30 and use the savings to buy a lee loader in 30-30, some powder brass and primers and a scale. then you can load her up some practice loads and some full house hunting loads. One drawback using a handi 30-30 and only factory rounds is the flat nosed bullets, with the exception of the leverevolution.

Elkoholic · « **Reply #29 on:** December 07, 2008, 10:21:06 AM »

Another option yet is a 270 or 30-06 ultra comp barrel. She'll have to wear
hearing protection (I have a cheap method that works quick) but it combined
with a limbsaver pad and reduced recoil loads it would hardly kick at all.

Otherwise, I too vote 7-08.

Mike