Author Topic: 450 marlin or 358win brushgun (Read 5245 times)

brennemanj83 · « **on:** November 29, 2008, 11:16:54 AM »

i have purchased a stevens 200 in 308 to use as the foundation for building a brush gun.i have been tryin to decide what caliber i want and have narrowed it down to 2 choices either 358win or 450marlin.i'm going to install a good adjustable trigger,b&c duramax stock,with a good low power scope that will gather a lot of light.barrel length will be 17 inches for those quick shots.which caliber would perform well in this setup?please keep in mind this is going to be a brush gun and most shots will be under 75yds out to probally 150yds max in the area that i hunt.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 29, 2008, 04:52:58 PM »

I know this was not in your list of choices, but why not the 45-70. If you reload, the 45-70 will do anything the 450 Marlin will do. The 45-70 is more available then the 450 Marlin.
But if you are set on your choices, I would take the 450 Marlin over the 358 Win, bigger holes.

Just thinking out loud.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #2 on:** November 29, 2008, 07:47:06 PM »

45/70 or stay with the 308.Are you talkin lower 49 bush or Alaska.No matter if you decide on 35cal you might look at the 350 rem mag if your going to put all that money into it anyway. The 350 rem mag was designed for short barrels.

BBF · « **Reply #3 on:** November 30, 2008, 07:56:07 AM »

358 Win. This is an easy conversion. Same lenght brass and head size and a lot more user friendly. You will have a functioning shoulder left after many years.

If you were ever going after the nasty bears I would consider the 450 or 45-70 but not in a bolt action.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #4 on:** November 30, 2008, 08:39:11 AM »

I believe the 358 is the only practical conversion. I had a .243 rebored/rerifled to .358 years ago. I don't remember, and don't want to take the time to look up, what the case head size is on the 450. But I'd be willing to bet that belted cartridge rim size is NOT .473. Bet the action would need some rail work (at a minimum) to feed properly also. $:-\$

Of course, other then the "I want" factor there is no reason not to stay with the .308. Just as good a "brush" cartridge as the 450 or 358.

BBF · « **Reply #5 on:** November 30, 2008, 09:18:17 AM »

I measured my 760 carbine OAL at 39". Anything much longer is not a brush gun IMO regardless of chambering. A 308 Win with a 150 gr bullet doesn't rate as a brush gun for me either. Now if it was a carbine shooting a 180 Gr. Rem SP or another 180 gr RN bullet that would change my mind

Graybeard · « **Reply #6 on:** November 30, 2008, 09:52:21 AM »

Brush guns are a common misconception for the most part. What folks generally mean by the term "brush gun" or brush busting gun" as it is so often referred to is an expectation on their part of a round pushing a bullet that is actually gonna "bust brush" and get that bullet to game on the other side of thick brush.

Folks it ain't gonna happen and it really don't matter what you chamber it to. In fact in a simulated test I once read about where dowel pins were placed in holes drilled into a board and used to simulate thick brush guess what gave the best performance on the target placed behind the screen of dowells?

The lowly .243 Winchester. Why you ask? Cuz it's smaller diameter tended to hit fewer dowels and thus was deflected less by the lesser contact.

Understand clearly that no matter what you shoot if it hits a limb or twig much larger than a tooth pick more than say at most ten yards and more preferably no more than 10' from your intended target changes are you ain't gonna make a killing shot regardless of what you use.

So to me a brush rifle more properly refers to a short over all length rifle with an action that can be operated quickly if needed for a second shot but more to the point it should be quick to shoulder and very accurate so you can pick a small opening thru which to send that one and only shot that matters. It should be one comfortable for you to carry at ready as you slip along slowly and quietly looking for game that has not yet seen you.

Do not expect the bullet to bust brush on the way to game as it just plain ain't gonna happen.

Bottom line. Of the two mentioned the .358 to me most closely fits the criteria of flat shooting and accurate but then the .308 likely does so even more so.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 30, 2008, 10:47:37 AM »

Graybeard my thought on a brush gun is, a short barreled rifle, that I use in thick brush. Something the is easy to use in the brush. I would never recommend shooting through brush with any round.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #8 on:** November 30, 2008, 07:12:57 PM »

If you hand load you can keep 308cal 200 and 220 gr. bullets in the 2300 to 2400 fps area. Much good medicine for black bear and even moose.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 01, 2008, 01:48:31 AM »

Quote from: Amigo Will on November 30, 2008, 07:12:57 PM

If you hand load you can keep 308cal 200 and 220 gr. bullets in the 2300 to 2400 fps area. Much good medicine for black bear and even moose.

The 308 does not handle the 200 and 220 gr bullets well, not enough case space for powder. 165 to 180 is ideal.

Lone Star · « **Reply #10 on:** December 01, 2008, 05:56:24 AM »

One facet of the "brush gun" not yet mentioned is its ability to anchor the game quickly so that a long tracking session through thick brush isn't needed. Of the three cartridges mentioned the .308 is at the bottom and the .450 Marlin at the top for anchoring game right now (based on my 30+ years hunting experience with the .45-70).

But the Stevens bolt gun is not readily converted to the Marlin cartridge, so the .358 has to get the nod unless the OP wants the extra expense of bolt face and rail machining.

.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #11 on:** December 01, 2008, 07:11:10 AM »

I beg to differ on the bigger bullets. The 200's shot fine in my Ruger International,BLR and Win 88 and crono between 2350 to 2425 fps with easy two inch groups at one hundred yards. the 220 's shot three inch groups and ran around 2300fps. Of course this is real doing it and use not just reading a book but then again maybe they started making longer bullets in the last thirteen years and it no longer can be done.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 01, 2008, 07:46:21 AM »

Quote from: Amigo Will on December 01, 2008, 07:11:10 AM

I beg to differ on the bigger bullets. The 200's shot fine in my Ruger International,BLR and Win 88 and crono between 2350 to 2425 fps with easy two inch groups at one hundred yards. the 220 's shot three inch groups and ran around 2300fps. Of course this is real doing it and use not just reading a book but then again maybe they started making longer bullets in the last thirteen years and it no longer can be done.

I don't just read books when I give my opinion, I only give my actual experience. If you had good luck with them , then you are the exception to the rule.

2300 and 2400 fps with them 200 and 220 gr. bullets, you must be smoking them out of that 308. Hot loads. The 30-06 with a bigger case capacity only gets 2500 fps with the 220 gr. bullets. And that is Max loads.

JimP. · « **Reply #13 on:** December 01, 2008, 10:04:48 AM »

i would stick with the 308 and load the hornady 190 gr BTSP around 2500 fps in a 20 inch barrel so the velocity should still around 2300 fps in the shorter 17 inch barrel, i have used this bullet on deer and it kills quickly and will anchor them nicely, cut the barrel to 18 inches and mount a Bushnell red dot scope and it will be an awesome brush gun...JimP.

brennemanj83 · « **Reply #14 on:** December 01, 2008, 05:05:13 PM »

i've been doin some research and from what i gather it isnt goin to be that hard to swap a 450 marlin barrel on to a stevens 200.the 450marlin has the head diameter as the belted .532".so from what i gather all that is needed is bolt head for belted magnum case and a 450marlin head spae gauge to make sure head space is correct.over all cartdige length of the 450 is right in the neigborhood of the 308 so that isnt a problem.at most i may have to modify the feed ramp slightly for it to feed properly.i think all in all its not going to be that much of problem and i think it would be kind of nice to have a good bolt gun in 450 marlin.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #15 on:** December 01, 2008, 05:18:49 PM »

Okay, you know what you want, just do it!

Be sure to let us know how it turns out.

JimP. · « **Reply #16 on:** December 02, 2008, 01:46:50 AM »

I have a bolt gun in 450 Marlin, it is a Magnum Mauser action with a 22 inch barrel bedded in a super nice walnut stock, i use it with open sights and load a cast 500 gr bullet to 1900 fps and yes even with the Limbsaver recoil pad it kicks, but it is an awesome shooter and i enjoy shooting it, if the 450 Marlin is what your after, go for it. Get you some 500 grain round nose bullets cast from Saeco mold 881 and you can purchase them from Montana bullet works already cast, load up some and have a blast shooting that bolt gun with some heavy bullets....JimP.

bilmac · « **Reply #17 on:** December 02, 2008, 02:47:20 AM »

In addition to the bolt face being wrong, I'm pretty sure the feed rails will have to be modified to feed a fatso like the 45 reliably. There was a fad in our country years ago of making 45-70 bolt guns. I talked to an excellent gunsmith about the job and he told me that the only action really suitable for the conversion was a Siamese mauser, because the military cartridge was similar. Getting the feed rails right so that they feed flawlessly is not easy, they say Mauser worked on his for years before he was successful.

Making conversions may have made sense years ago when military actions were a dime a dozen, but unless you can do the work yourself, you will quickly have more money tied up in gunsmith wages and expensive parts than you would by going to a gunshow and trading for a marlin or a skinney boltgun.

Start with the right basic action and caliber and then do your own customizing. I took a Marlin M95 and whittled wood off the stocks and shortened the barrel till it looked more like a model 1894 and weighed in somewhere in between. I took a Springfield and turned and shortened the barrel and put a skinney stock on it. With a reciever sight and shooting 220 gr bullets it was a delight to carry.

I read a similar test to what greybeard cites, shooting through a set of dowels. The winner in that test was a mini 14 223 and FMJ bullets, because at that time they were made with very fast twist barrels that made for super stabilized bullets, and the bullet didn't deform much. I don't know why it is built into our psychie the want to shoot big slow bullets in brushy country, my basic instinct is the same even though I read and believe all the tests that say otherwise. The only advantage of big bullets is that they penetrate well and will more likely leave a blood trail in country where you are not going to be able to watch a critter till it drops.

S.E.Ak · « **Reply #18 on:** December 02, 2008, 06:53:02 AM »

RedHawk1 maybe you are the exception as quite a few did it with no problems. Heck I see folks on here write that you can't shoot 220 in a 06 as they tumble.

Syncerus · « **Reply #19 on:** December 02, 2008, 07:55:38 AM »

You do know that steyr is now making a .450 marlin bolt gun, right?

http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/en/jagdwaffen/big-bore/

It's probably cheaper just to buy it from the factory; resale will certainly be higher.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 02, 2008, 09:01:07 AM »

Quote from: Amigo Will on December 02, 2008, 06:53:02 AM

RedHawk1 maybe you are the exception as quite a few did it with no problems. Heck I see folks on here write that you can't shoot 220 in a 06 as they tumble.

OK what ever....

BS · « **Reply #21 on:** December 13, 2008, 12:24:23 PM »

The 358 is a real sleeper,

and just a screw on barrel.............no feed problems.............then there is always a 338 Federal.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 14, 2008, 02:36:28 AM »

Quote from: BS on December 13, 2008, 12:24:23 PM

The 358 is a real sleeper, and just a screw on barrel.............no feed problems.............then there is always a 338 Federal.

Now I do like the 338 Federal. I have one in the Ruger Frontier, and it is a tack driving son of a gun.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #23 on:** December 14, 2008, 02:54:57 PM »

If you have one in the Frontier, you already have the "Brush Gun". DP

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 14, 2008, 05:54:28 PM »

Quote from: dpe.ahoy on December 14, 2008, 02:54:57 PM

If you have one in the Frontier, you already have the "Brush Gun". DP

I have a few "brush guns" Marlin 45-70, Marlin 444P, Encore 12 gauge slug gun and the Ruger Frontier 338 Federal. All easy to carry in thick brush. But not one is a brush buster....

BS · « **Reply #25 on:** December 15, 2008, 12:48:45 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on December 14, 2008, 05:54:28 PM

Quote from: dpe.ahoy on December 14, 2008, 02:54:57 PM
If you have one in the Frontier, you already have the "Brush Gun". DP

I have a few "brush guns" Marlin 45-70, Marlin 444P, Encore 12 gauge slug gun and the Ruger Frontier 338 Federal. All easy to carry in thick brush. But not one is a brush buster....

I have shot holes in brush with 12 slugs, big enough to shoot thru!

john keyes · « **Reply #26 on:** December 24, 2008, 03:38:04 PM »

.338/08 would be cool

Varmint Hunter · « **Reply #27 on:** December 26, 2008, 07:40:01 AM »

Why not just go all the way - 10ga 3.5" mag. First shot creates a tunnel for the remaining shells to shoot through.

handirifle · « **Reply #28 on:** January 01, 2009, 05:41:31 AM »

I think this is n excellent idea, personally. Either one will do what you want, with a 20" barrel or less. Velocity loss will not be as big an issue as muzzle blast.
The 450 Marlin is, as you have read, an easy swap, and some minor "adjustments" to the magazine might be necessary to open it up for the wider round.

Yes, all you'll need is the bolt head, another beauty of a Savage. I did exactly what you're thinking of doing with a 30 yr old 243 I had. I went with the 308 because I live in CA where lead hunting ammo is banned, and 35 cal lead free choices are very limited at best. The 358 was my preference.

Here's mine.

Prettied the stock up with a forend tip and new finish, and barrel cut to 20" and recrowned. But if she gets scratched, she gets scratched. It has a 4X scope on top and might end up with a 2.5. I kept 4X for now cause I can easily got from brush bustin to a 250yd shot across a canyon.

I'd suggest the 358 cause it will be easier, if necessary, for a followup shop than with the 450. The Marlin round can be loaded lower, however and I'd really recommend doing so. All the power of the factory 450 is not needed unless you're after the big bears. BUT, the cool factor is pretty high.

Ammo cost will be a lot higher if you do not reload. Availability will most likely be about the same, with a slight advantage to the 358, be neither are common rounds. The brass for the 358 will be easy, buy 308 and neck up.

To me, though a light gun is also a brush gun, and light gun and 450 Marlin is not a good mix.

Have fun.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #29 on:** January 03, 2009, 03:02:34 AM »

I always like that idea of short handi guns for thick cover. Not a big fan of shooting thru it, but the short barrel gun allows you to get in there.

I am also a big fan of large holes, generally the bigger the better. But this platform and the problems that can arise with large dia bullets in a bolt gun. let alone a belted fat case. Chanbering for that mag can be quite a dunting affair, not many gunsmiths do this well. Even when they do do it, its time consuming hand work and that's expensive!! I agree with the others that suggested the 358. For the reason's I posted, for this project, I would go with the 358Win. Its a GREAT caliber and well suited to this project. I don't remember if you said what caliber the gun was orig, but its very likely nothing will need be done to the feed ramp and rails or bolt face. That's big, trust me, I have been there myself.

I have had a 358 for many years and LOVE this caliber. I load it with a 200gr Hornady almost explicitly. Its a freaking Thor's hammer on whitetails. I tried the Speer 250Gr for some time and it did well enough, but not as good as that 200Sp. If bigger critters where on the agenda I'd try them 250's again.

The 45-70 is out just because there is a reason companies do not chamber that cartridge in bolt guns......Its got a big honkin' rim!!

It is a great caliber and much more versatile than the upstart 450M.

I agree with RedHawk, some of the velocities posted for the 308, (IF they where in a 308 are high and likely from a longer barrel or to higher than recommended powder charges.) seem exaggerated. the 200 and up are not great choices for the 308 as case cap is limited and getting enough powder in there is just.. well its not well suited for them. I know people do it and I know it can work. IMHO and as suggested, stick with 180gr and down for best performance in the 308. Need to shoot 200+ buy a '06.

Better yet, get a 35!!!

Good luck and let us know what you decide to do!!

CW