TEXAS AND THE CIVIL WAR

[williamlayton]

Nothing, just seeing how many would look.
All comments welcome.
Blessings

[Ga.windbreak]

I came, I saw, and I left.

[Graybeard]

Are you asking about the first civil warn aka the war of northern aggression or the looming one ahead?

Or were you just checking to see if everyone had put you on ignore since Matt added the new feature? 

[williamlayton]

I would never protest against any one putting me on Ignor. Might be the best for them.
That was not the point at all. In fact it was too see if someone wanted too start a discussion on this subject.
BTW--war of northern aggression is ignoring a lot of facts.
If Texas had not been brought into the Union by a bunch of Soutern collaboration and influence it may well still be a nation.
It was the influx of folks from the South that wanted it too be a part of this great nation.
Those old, original European settlers did not really go along with this. They kind of liked it the way it was set up.
Old Sam resigned as President/Governor over this secession business.
Blessings

[Ga.windbreak]

I would never protest against any one putting me on Ignor. Might be the best for them.
That was not the point at all. In fact it was too see if someone wanted too start a discussion on this subject.
BTW--war of northern aggression is ignoring a lot of facts.
If Texas had not been brought into the Union by a bunch of Soutern collaboration and influence it may well still be a nation.
It was the influx of folks from the South that wanted it too be a part of this great nation.
Those old, original European settlers did not really go along with this. They kind of liked it the way it was set up.
Old Sam resigned as President/Governor over this secession business.Blessings

Well WL if you really feel that way why not get enought people together and vote for leaving again. If as you say its still in the State Constitution. Have at'er my friend. I really can't debate you on this subject because I'd be the first one to say let them go in peace if thats what they really want. As for what happened 148 years ago show me some facts and figures and we'll have at it. I'm game! You know, of course, that old Sam had quite a bit to do with helping to take it away from Spain. There just might be some who still resent that, too, you know.

Peace

[williamlayton]

Which state constitution? We have so many amendments too our Constitution we have amendments to amendments and amendments too them.
What I said was Texas can subdivide.

I made the argument in the last post too show that IMO the thought of secession was not well thought out.
It also relates back too the majority of the arguments for a strong central government.
Now WE have elected ourownselves into this Federalist hair ball.
It was the South which encouraged Texas into the Union, projecting slavery too another state, and East texas was ripe for the expansion of slavery--because it was here already.
Blessings

[Ga.windbreak]

Which state constitution? We have so many amendments too our Constitution we have amendments to amendments and amendments too them.
What I said was Texas can subdivide.

I made the argument in the last post too show that IMO the thought of secession was not well thought out.
It also relates back too the majority of the arguments for a strong central government.
Now WE have elected ourownselves into this Federalist hair ball.
It was the South which encouraged Texas into the Union, projecting slavery too another state, and East Texas was ripe for the expansion of slavery--because it was here already.
Blessings

Well, dang WL you brought it up and if you don't know I sure as heck don't, I'm in Georgia remember?

You know there is a real difference between a Strong central Government and a Big central Government that oversteps it bounds.

The South wanted Texas to be on its side, why? So it could expand slavery or so that there would be equality in the congress? Jefferson called the drawing of the masondixon line the cut that split the country in two. He was right and why? The Northern states were tired of taking care of its slaves plus new immigrant workers were flooding the northern ports with cheap labor. It was much cheaper to pay some 10 year old kid 10 cents a day than to have to take care of a slave after they grew old and could no longer produce. But the labor in the South was still viable using slave labor. All of this started taking place around 1790-1800. In 1807 England was the last Europian nation to outlaw slavery and we followed suit in 1808 but the problem with our laws was that it had a loop hole. US flagged shipping couldn't be boarded on the high seas and England, who controlled the high seas, couldn't board or stop us. The US Navy was still not big or strong enough plus I'm sure that money changed hands also. Heck WL they were still selling slaves in DC in 1863. The North as well as the South made use of the slave yet the North wanted to appear to have clean hands so it outlawed slavery within its borders starting in 1790 in Mass. The Northern states also passed laws making it hard if not impossible for the African American to live in the north. Most slaves coming thru the underground railroad were sent on to Canada. The immigrant workers in the north surely didn't want to have to compete with the black man for his job and that is truly where racism reared its ugly head. Its all about money and power; thats the bottom line.

[williamlayton]

Your last sentence is correct, and will always be---on both sides.
Blessings

[Ga.windbreak]

Your last sentence is correct, and will always be---on both sides.
Blessings

Well of course it is WL I never said any differently. Our difference, yours and mine, is the direction that money and power take. For the Federalist of that time it was Manifest Destiny, to secure the North American Continent for the US including Cuba, I might add. The Anti-Federalist, on the other hand, wanted to make sure that the Government remain small and the Constitution be adhered to as it was written.

And to this day none of that has changed. The parties may have different names but the agendas are no different. In point of fact; there are Feds and Anti-Feds on both sides of the isle. I would wager, in fact, that without the War of Northern aggression the Federalist would have, by now, been in complete control and we as a country would be under a totally different form of government today. Not unlike the Brits or the Canadans of today; much more socialized and with far fewer civil liberties than we now enjoy.

[williamlayton]

The onliest thing I can say too the last paragraph is that "THEY" must be elected too do that and if they are elected it will be the people choice.
Now, i didn't say it could not/will not happen---but there is more than one election in the next four years and we can change things thru prayer and the vote.
It is just not going too happen arguing about it on these pages.
Blessings

[Ga.windbreak]

There are always more people into the group thing than those that are indivuals. Of the % of the desendents versus those who came afterwards what would you think the make up is? Just how many truly understand the Constitution and the Bill of Rights? Just how many even notice the civil liberties that we've already lost by way of things that Congress has passed lately? Just how many people realize that the 14th amendment just about killed the first 12? Plus the fact that it was not legally pased in the first place. No different than this "Bailout" that we "the People" didn't want but those in Congress did? That is your Big government for you, "Be very careful what you wish for; you just may get it."

[williamlayton]

I don't recall saying anything about big government.
I recall saying I agreed that a strong central government was better than a confederation of mini-nations.
I recall saying a strong Union was needed.
If I said anything about desireing BIG government I do apologize and say that I am not in favor of big government.
Now define big.
Blessings

[Ga.windbreak]

WL, chill out my man, when I said you I meant as in everyone who thinks government is the answer to all our problems ( and if not government then science). If that shoe doesn't fit then don't put it on, simple, right?!

Big as in intrusive where it needs not go. Big as in spending money on things it needs not spend. Big as in not taking care of the infrastructure of this country, that is crying out for help, while spending money on Global warming which it has no sense of what it doing. Big as in taking away our civil liberties while claiming to keep us safe.

Just how many more Bigs do you want from me this AM?

P.S. Can we now get back to Texas? and the War?

[phalanx]

Nov. 24th 2008 "The US will break into six parts," says Russia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs Academy Professor.

Nov. 8th 2008 -- Ron Paul stated: maybe we (Texas) should secede from the union" 19:34 minutes into the show

Texas Secession is neither left nor right politically. We accept members of many political persuasions: pro-life, pro-choice, pro-gun, environmentalist, pro-immigration, anti-immigration, anti-Iraq-war, pro-Iraq-war, pro-tax funded education, anti-tax funded education, pro-war on drugs, pro-drug freedom, etc. We do have one common issue: Texas Independence!!!

The American Empire has become a tyrant aggressive abroad and despotic at home. The D.C. politicians 1500 miles away don't care about Texas. The Texas legislature will do a much better job of allowing local Texas communities to govern themselves.

Does Texas have the resources to be in independent nation? Texas has 23,507,783 people; 11% larger than Australia. 79% of the nations have populations smaller than Texas. Texas GDP is $1,065,891,000,000; 32% larger than Australia. 93% of the nations have a GDP smaller than Texas.


Austin : 11/25/08 In order for any sovereign nation to become a part of another nation, a Treaty of Annexation must be ratified, approved, and adopted. There was a House Joint Resolution inviting US troops into Texas together with a Treaty of Annexation, that was negotiated between the United States of America and the republic of Texas, but the US Senate never did approve and adopt it, but shelved it instead, (like many state enabling Acts), probably because there is no authority in the US Constitution for them to bring a sovereign nation into the United States. Now, after over 150 years, the republic of Texas has withdrawn from their part of the Treaty and a house Joint Resolution has been issued ordering US troops out of Texas.


Declaration of Intent
Adopted by the Texas Constitutional Convention of 2008, 26 July 2008
I. We hold that the foundation of this nation is that an individual's body, life, labor, ideas, thoughts, and material possessions that the individual has created or acquired without coercion are that individual's property and that no individual, majority, society, or government may legitimately take or control an individual's property without that individual's consent.
II. We hold that the foundation of our economy shall be the free market system unfettered by intrusions of government and based upon the free and voluntary exchange of goods and services.
III. We hold that peaceful relations with other nations is based upon the concept of mutual respect and that war and other interference in the affairs of other nations serves only to destroy such peaceful relations. It is therefore declared that Texas shall remain neutral in the affairs of, and between, other nations.

What Will The New Constitution Mean to You?
Make Your Own Decisions

You will be able to make decisions that affect you and your family. No government agent will second-guess your decisions nor take your children away.
Defend Yourself and Your Family

You will be able to prepare to defend yourself, your family, and your property without being labeled a criminal for daring to own "assault weapons" or an "arsenal". And you will be able to actually defend yourself, unlike many places under the current regime where someone who defends himself may get a harsher penalty than the criminal.
Make Your Own Spending Decisions

You will be able to decide for yourself how to spend your money. All funding of government under Texas Constitution 2000 is voluntary. No more IRS. No more Form 1040. No more sales tax. No more property tax. Nothing. Nada.
Control What Your Children Learn

You will be able to control what your children learn. There will be no more government-run public schools which means there will no longer be any need for forced taxation to pay for them. And, since there will no longer be any government rules about what can and can't be taught, you and your school can decide that. You can even decide to have daily prayers and Koran readings. Or not. You and your school decide. You can home school. If you want. You can form a teaching cooperative. If you want. You can send your children to private school. If you want. You will be in control.
Own Your Own Land

You will own your own land rather than renting it from the government. No longer will the government be able to take your property for nonpayment of taxes. (There won't be any taxes so how could you not pay them?) Nor will government be able to take your property because the property is accused of a crime (asset forfeiture). Only individuals can commit a crime under Texas Constitution 2000. You can build a house on your land. If you want. You can grow potatoes on your land. If you want. You can let your land set idle. If you want. You will be in control.
Travel Without Government Permission

You will be able to travel where and when you want without getting permissions from government. You will no longer need a driver's license. (You don't need one now but just about everybody, including the cops, thinks you do.) You will be able to come into Texas without needing a passport or a visa, or any other kind of paperwork. You may still need paperwork to get out of Texas as we cannot control what other terrorist organizations... er, ah... governments do but you will be able to get one from the new Texas government if you want one.
Work Without Government Permission

You will be able to work without permission from government. No longer will you be required to present a government-furnished ID number, such as a Social Security Number, in order to be hired. No longer will you need a license to practice your trade or profession. (But you might want to get a certificate of competency from whatever voluntary organization does that for your trade or profession.) No longer will you have to pay a government-mandated wage for work you need to have done. You will, instead, decide for yourself what you want to do in order to make a living and how you will go about it. You will be in control.
Worship Without Government Permission

You will no longer have to attend a government-approved church (501c tax exempt organization) that is afraid to espouse controversial positions.
Be Judged By An Honest Jury

On the off chance that you do find yourself in front of a jury, you will have a randomly-selected jury of people from the community to judge your actions. (You can still commit a crime under Texas Constitution 2000 but it is a crime only if you take an action that is intended to, and does, harm another person or his/her property.) No more jury-stacking by abusing the jury selection procedures. The only "selection" that will be allowed is a juror can be excluded by a majority vote of the rest of the jurors if that juror is known to be a relative of the accused -or- if the juror fails to show up at the appointed times and places. Well, one more case. A juror is excluded if he or she is to participate in the trial in some other capacity. No more judges telling juries what they must, and must not, consider. No more back-room conferences where judges and lawyers decide your fate away from the eyes and ears of the jury. No more judges over-riding the jury decision. You will finally have, again, an honest jury that will hear all the evidence and make their own decisions about what it all means.

As in all things in life, there are no guarantees. Those of us who wrote Texas Constitution 2008 are human. We make mistakes. We overlook the obvious. It is quite possible that there is a gaping hole in the constitution that bad people will begin to take advantage of. We don't think so. We spent a considerable amount of time reviewing and "what-if-ing" what we wrote. But it's possible. So, we built in some protections.

The new government is prohibited from issuing currency or causing currency to be issued. The new government is required to pay its obligations in gold. We figured that would tend to keep them a bit more honest. The rest of us will use whatever free market currencies that the market will support.

The new government is also prohibited from issuing charters. This means the banking industry will not be able to get the government to issue rules and regulations that make it appear that government is in control of the banking industry.

Government agents will not have immunity from prosecution, even if they are acting in their official capacity at the time. Any ordinary individual will have standing in the courts to bring charges against any government official. That government official will then be tried in a county court just like any common criminal, assuming of course that the grand jury indicts the official. This is a major step forward from the current situation in which you have no standing to bring charges in criminal court and can only sue.

[phalanx]

cont:
The Role of Government in a Free Republic.
1) is to create and maintain an infrastructure of roads, bridges, waterways
and other transport routes for commercial and private transport
2) establish and provide for regulation of public utilities
3) provide for a fair and just legal system
4) establish and provide good relations with other countries with a focus
on a fair import/export balance
5) provide for a solid, stable currency backed up by the gold standard
6) collect reasonable taxes to support NECESSARY government activities
7) full PUBLIC accountability to the public for all actions of the
government or its agents
8) continually work for the least possible interference in the lives and
activities of its citizens
9) strive for ways to improve government efficiency and service
10) limits on all public service jobs, such jobs should be just that,
SERVICE! This includes all aspects of TEXAS government.
11) provide for efficient and modern communication and postal systems
12) provide for public education available to all TAXPAYERS and their
children, this includes college . 13) provide for medical services based on systems such as allowing
competition between providers. With ceilings on actual care as to
prevent the ridiculous charges we see today under the current systems.
14) continually look for better ways to carry out government functions and
services in order to improve or enhance the lives of its citizens by
superior leadership and direction
15) establish an equitable patent and copyright system that is legally
binding and enforceable
16) provide for TOUGH prison systems with a major focus on rehabilitation
17) provide for reasonable support of advanced and alternative research
That would benefit humanity, the environment, or offer
commercial prospects that would benefit the Country of Texas.

[williamlayton]

I can live with those guidelines.
The question remains. Will we be allowed to do so peacefully?
There are a couple of questions also.
Where do we draw boundaries? What would be the concerns with the original boundaries and what part would the other states have in this question?
We would have need too create our own army again. Where do the funds come from and this funding would be great. The technology would need too be self-generated. I can't see the US willing too let their tecnology be put in the hands of a foreign nation.
Ron, once again, is very simple in his thought and that is his main problem, it is not a simple problem and he does not think thru problems very well.
Blessings 

[phalanx]

The Dutch and the Swiss said a week ago that if Texas printed its own currency over night it would be accepted ,and worth more than the Dollar all over the World at this point.
The Boundarys will form as the entire thing unfolds , and Aid has already been offered to the Lone Star State .
Army ? Texas has Sons and daughters that by their birth alone she could call and they would answer.
It was a Country once ,it has been around longer than the rest of America in one form or another as a Country and not a territory.
If She stood tall and did anything like this, the flood of refugees trying to enter her and be a part of her would overwhelm her ability to control it.
Other states would follow as soon as they heard she was takeing the lead.
Even the BBC said that if Americans think this is bad now , they haven't see anything yet.

[williamlayton]

Here we go again.
Would the Union allow without a fight?
Who is going too fly air cover and with what?
Where do we get the tanks?
What do we do if Mexico invades? Think they might not do it !?
What do we do about the very large standing army with weapons within our borders?
Don't bet the farm that the rest would secede.
Lots of questions without answers here.
Please don't bet the farm that ALL Texans would just follow along.
What happend when a lot of industry just shuts down and moves?
We need a plan, not just pie in the sky.
Blessings

[Graybeard]

I'd be happy to trade homes with some Texan not happy with being separated from the US. I'd gladly move there. Heck the servers for GBO are already there.

[Dee]

I'd be happy to trade homes with some Texan not happy with being separated from the US. I'd gladly move there. Heck the servers for GBO are already there.

Maybe William will trade houses with ya Bill. In my opinion that would be a VERY good trade. 

[phalanx]

Air cover ? how many aircraft are within the Texas borders alone ,much less those in the southern states that will surely follow Texas.
Would the Union allow it ? i don't recall asking them as an option ,and they are broke ,and saddled with debt the States leaving didn't make.
Tanks ? same as aircraft , Lincoln woke up one morning and found out he had lost half his equipment ,Forts ,Ships and Army.
Mexico ? that's funny , they will go for California ,they have less guns and lots of Liberals,and they know that Texas would hurt them real bad.
They also will have their hands full with the refugees running back across the border not wanting to be caught in between the conflict.
And why do they want to get all messed up ,sit back and watch and suck up to the winner is the Mexican way.
The world isnt going to secede , the world has always been fickle , they will jump all over the chance to be trade partners with the new Country.
It has oil ,and natural resources ,new factory's ,technology , a large able work force , yes it will be a real win win for the ones who get there first.
In fact someone over seas may make sure that the new country does succeed in forming ,as some have been mentioning lately because Alaska will also be in that movement.
Half of the Military will be looking at the fact they were sworn to protect the Constitution , and they are not happy about losing their rights eiather and fighting for a Communist dictator .
And what does the East and N East have ? McCain actually won a lot more states once they weeded out all the fraud Acorn votes.
The Union you want to ask is after this now crumbling ,broke ,heavily on welfair ,city's decaying ,covered with gangs running rampant looking for anything they can kill for.
Being populated by needy conscripts and defeated citizens unable to defend themselves because of failed policy's.
Governed by the ruminates of a spoiled self serving mob of Godless Thugs and Homosexuals dieing from the very policy's of failure they attempted to pose on the rest of us.
Who is going to want them ?They do not even have an identity , or a loyal population unless they are handing things out to them.
They didn't want the Constitution , they didn't even want the country unless it was what they wanted it to be.
Its better to close them off and let them die off ,then go in and clean up what is left.
They would have nothing to offer , and any Army they assemble didn't respect the USA to begin with ,so they sure are not going to be much of a foe ,more like the Army of Iraq ,they will be surrendering in droves.
And you forget one thing in your questions ,Mexico attack ,NO, anyone else Attack ? NO , Even the East attack ? not likely ,WHY ?
NUKES .were are 80% of the Nukes ? go on JANEs and look ,only a real fool would try to go to far on that deal.

And to attack Texas or the South you screw up the prize you seek , it is worth more in tact than in shambles from a prolonged war.
And Texas will use her Nukes ,the East has very little of them that wouldn't in up in the new country's hands anyway.
Before November 4th it would be  50/50  ,because it was still the America with the Patriotism it had at 9-11.
But Mr. Mouth got in there and started talking the hardest form of Communisum ever seen ,with no regard for this country or its people.
So now Americans see this as not an election  ,it was corrupt and staged ,and was enacted like a third world coup .
The voices are growing louder now ,Americans are talking on the air now, and thanking the country's who spoke for us in the week's following this invasion of our government.
And America will have Allies , what ever the Country looks like on a map.
If Mexico is all our enemy has to help them, it will be a duck shoot a lot of Americans have long wanted.

[williamlayton]

Let's take one issue at a time.
Who do those planes belong too?
Who would authorize them too be used by texas?
Blessings

[Graybeard]

Is there really an honest effort underway by someone in a position of authority in Texas to make secession happen or is this all pure speculation? If it's a real effort who is behind it?

Personally I'm all for it even tho I'm not a resident of Texas. I do believe that the events of the next few years are going to split this country one way or another. I do not see it continuing to exist in it's current situation of 50 states for all that much longer. I think it merely a matter of time as to who starts it and where.

I don't really understand why Haiwai ever was admitted there is too much water between us and them and don't think they ever should have been a state. I suspect they will be one split off but dunno who will take them over or if they'll stand alone. I doubt they will as I doubt they can.

I'd not at all be surprised to see Alaska split also but would be somewhat concerned there that Russia would try to step in and take them over. Texas is a natural choice to split and might be the most likely to make it alone. If they were successful tho I suspect OK might join them quickly as they are already taking many actions to stand up to the federal government. If the two of them were successful I could sure see Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska and perhaps Wyoming and maybe even Montana and the Dakotas joining in. For sure such a group could easily stand as a nation on their own.

That would split the US in a manner that would have Mexico going for California no doubt and I'd say give it to them. The rest of the western states would likely have to join the rest or have mexico grab for them.

Dunno what the deep south might do but I could see them splitting off to join the new nation as well.

[Mike Britton]

I live in Texas. I find this interesting.

[phalanx]

The air craft and everything else is as the old saying ,Possession is 90% of the law.
Who is going to go tell them that they need to give them back ?
Who is going to walk into the Nation of the Sioux and tell them to surrender their guns ?
Americans you have Allies in this ,they struggle to help you as we speak.
India an emerging Republic ,and she payed the price for standing tall in the face of this and preforming the acts with their Navy that we once would have done.
We are being aided by country's we thought were ungrateful for the times we helped them ,they are proving that wrong.
The Free world stands in shock that the leader of freedom has succumbed to this ,and they know they will be next on the list.
The terrorist attack was said to be going to happen here ,there was no need for that because we are where they wanted us ,it needed to be against another country who is defiant.
In your thinking you have done nothing ,or you feeling helpless ,you have actually slowed down and thrown curves into the path of those who thought this was going to be easy.
Obama now moves to the center ,he no longer promotes his god like image , no longer do we hear about the CDF or the spread the wealth nonsense we did at first ,in fact we see fear , they know ,that we now know without us they would wither and die.
Your buying firearms was not anticipated , your talk of secession not only shocked them ,the fact you meant it was seen by them on a far different scale than you see here ,they saw a Giant about to awaken.
A huge institution shifted its leadership some time back ,and Allied with one here in your South so that a fat German Man ,and a Man in the South interceded Months ago or this would be far worse and a lot sooner than now.
Your Enemy is furious knowing that to even touch them would be the biggest mistake he ever made.
Your Biggest company's  ,not the ones asking for a hand out ,are fed up ,and this is costing them money ,and they have no interest in the sharing the wealth game.
And they intend on doing Business as useual and ignoring this ridiculous puppet ,and they have invested in their own Army's.
Who do you think owns Black Water ?
Why all of a sudden do select Militia groups seem to have a lot of cash on hand,and leaders who sure are not some bubba from the sticks?
My sources come from an unlikely place that 6 years ago would not have gotten involved ,but someone made it personal on November 4th.
And you as Americans have the right to know why and who, and not the smiling face lies your media is telling you.
You have a duty in that you are the stewards of the children, to ensure their freedom and safety ,just as others died to ensure yours when you were the children ,to do other is a curse you will live for forever.
It isnt about you ,its about them , and being a good and peaceful person does not mean you go quietly into the night to an arena or a gas chamber.
Texas does what Texas has always done ,Take care of Texas , and India allows the personal possession of firearms.
In the face of this they are doing what the Swiss do ,they are now allowing the personal possession of Full Autos ,and the people will be trained to use them.
When anyone comes and tells you to surrender anything that belongs to you that for 250 years now was your right ,you know what you need to tell them ,all of you.
This will send the message , look to Ireland for inspiration , they all said NO.
Stop doubting yourselves and look deep into the eyes of your children ,for there is your answers ,and there is the word you need to hear.  That which you always knew in your heart was what your destiny was ,and the Courage you needed to show.
America is being given another chance ,but this time you must earn it , we allowed this to happen and we must show we want it back.
To do other will one day be the madness yoiu suffer that you could have stopped this , and you didn't, and now others suffer for that mistake.

[williamlayton]

You don't have possession. Are you, as the President of Texas, Going too send a Texas ranger too Ft. Hood and say too em--"Lay down your arms you are tresspassing on Sovereign Texas soil?
I would love too hear the reply.
No one is serious except old Ron Paul. Bless his heart he is just old and frustrated.
IMO he has always been for simple answers. Simple answers too complex concerns are way out of their league.
I will say it again, He does not think thru things well, or, not at all.
Show me a plan that is solid.
So far all we have is Gung Ho and lets go. That line of thinking will leave shallow graves and embarrassment, as it did the South.
Blessings

[Gary G]

William, Dr. Ron Paul is well schooled in economics. He is also well studied in Jefferson, the constitution and states rights. He is a much smarter man than would appear at just hearing a political speech. I have read some of his writings and am impressed. In fact, I may be turning into a Libertarian as I see the current trend unsustainable economically.

[Gary G]

Government gets it power by taking money from the people (tax), plus printing counterfeit money, plus borrowing from foreign governments. All of this was illegal under the original constitution. Add to the national debt the entitlements of social security, medicare, etc. plus debt payments and it is unsustainable. When it breaks the government loses all it's power without a shot being fired. Fortunately, we have a safety net, the constitution. You will wake up one Tuesday, after a bank holiday, and find out that we have a new money. Your old money is worthless. It will be caused by a default in government bonds.

http://www.babylontoday.com/national_debt_clock.htm

[phalanx]

William ,Men such as yourself will be the leaders of tomorrow , Read a book written by general Calius Ventarium.
Ft.Hood would be given the option to do what you ask , the Men who wish to join the cause or go Home would be given the chance to leave.
If they didn't or were not permitted to they would be the unfortunate victims of a SEIGE.
Read up on Atlanta ,Sherman read the Generals book.
Sad to say , with the news of a declining command structure and mass defections ,i am sure that Hood would end up in some sort of negotiations.

The plan is for you as Americans to formulate , and there are those who are doing that just in case it is needed.
If i were the one you seek ,would i be telling you the plan on a national forum ? I think not.
I am simply a Mirror showing you a reflection of what you should be ,not what you think you are . I tell you to have faith where there is darkness ,Courage where you have despair , remind you of the task it is your generation to take upon yourselves.
Your Enemy is weak , he only rules you because you let him ,he is frightened of you now.
If ( gung ho ) hasn't reached you in Ernest ,it is because you haven't looked in the right places , William ,look to yourself ,all of you ,that is where you will find what you need.  Become what is within you William ,the fire is there ,and you want to use it. Leaders that were followed by many evolved from unlikely places in unlikely men . Proclaiming your a Leader is a fallacy just as what is used by your Enemy today.

Your not alone here America , many are watching your back , but it is your choice to take back that you wish to preserve this time around.  For to long you took freedom for granted ,and lavished in its light ignoring the signs you knew were dangerous.
And like the saga of Bull Run , you extended your kindness to those who used it to bring you down.

My friend ,the Confederacy didn't make a mistake in Fighting that war , they made a mistake early on in being Gentlemen after Bull Run and not takeing it all the way to the White House when they had the opportunity.
They were warned about that , they didn't get that chance again.
You are being warned ,you may never get this opportunity again.
It isnt for me to be a leader ,that would make me no better than the one you hate ,it is for me to make sure you find a leader , and the Courage to stop doubting yourselves.

The Man who owns this Forum ,is such a courageous man as i speak of , he is secure in his beliefs and his faith.
He owns a highly visible web site ,and yet he says what he knows to be the truth and he isnt afraid to say it.
Learn from this Man , he allows me to come here and tell you things i hope will spur you into the kind of People needed to do what so many need and hope you will do.
No one wants a Civil War , but do not run from it if it is forced upon you , Speak loudly and as one , So the world will know you have no intention to fade quietly into the night.
If you do not get your voices together ,and proclaim your selves as Free Men and Women , then no one will ever know that you ever existed in the pages of time.

[williamlayton]

I am first, an American.
I lean towards a strong Union.
I do not think a weak Union can exist. I think you call for a weak union. A strong nation of Texas, too be sure.
Mr Paul is a smart man and I agree with his economic solutions but this is the signature of a man failing too see the forest for the trees.
It is pie in ths sky seen thru rose colored glasses. I doubt that he is seriousl suggesting secession. This is frustration showing.
Now, we have issued an ultimatum too Ft Hood and they reply "NUTS."
What now? A siege by whom, upon whom? Tell me that you don't honestly think we can bring siege upon Ft Hood. The other way around perhaps.
Blessings
Blessings