bullet diameter - just read a book

[crow_feather]

Just read a book by Randolph S Wright, who writes that the patched bullet should be bore diameter, ie; 45-70 - a patched bullet measuring .450 diameter.

I have to admit that I have been loading bullets patched to grove diameter, 45-70 = .458 diameter patched bullet.  I can not chamber a second round without first cleaning the bore.

I get good accuracy but am now wondering if I am leading my bore or somehow doing damage.

What diameter patched bullets does everyone else use?

Also If I have to shave the bullet, how far can I go with a bullet sizer?

Thanks for any info

[John Boy]

crow_feather - one step at a time:
*  First measure the bore diameter of the rifle
*  Then depending on the paper thickness - wrap the bullet to your measured bore diameter. (Look in the threads here for paper diameter sources)
Not every rifle measures exactly 0.450

I can not chamber a second round without first cleaning the bore.

Sounds like a heavy foul residue issue - not leading.  Are you using a grease cookie (GC) in your reloads?

... am now wondering if I am leading my bore or somehow doing damage.

Shouldn't, if you are wrapping the bullet correctly.  Only one way to find out though - buy a bottle of Shooter's Choice Lead Remover
re: Damage? ... No

[crow_feather]

I have been loading to the barrel grove diameter (458)

I bought a 451 diameter mould, which makes a 458 diameter patched bullet.  My bore diameter is actually 448.  I tried putting a bare bullet (.451) down the bore and it shaves lead.  The resulting flat spots were .448. 

The patched bullets (.458) are accurate, (MOA) but I must clean the bore after every shot or the next bullet will not load.

I use a .7 grease cookie in my 34" barrel.

CF

[Castaway]

Bore, groove, it depends.  If loading black powder, I'd tend to go smaller (bore).  It give some room for fouling and the bullet is bumped up to groove diameter by the bp.  Smokeless powder doesn't bump the bullet up nearly as efficiently as does bp and neither do you have to worry about fouling.  For smokeless loads, I'd go groove diameter or 0.001" over.

[cooper]

Castaway is correct.

I have a 40/90 Sharps with a .400" bore, and .408" groove.  I bought a paper patch mould which casts a .392" bare bullet.  Patching brings it up to bore diameter of .400".

This works fine with black powder, which will bump-up the bullet to groove diameter, but still leaves enough space so that a loaded round will chamber even in a fouled bore.

But it doesn't work at all with smokeless.  Groups are wild.

[John Boy]

The resulting flat spots were .448. 

OK, crow_feather ... we're getting some where.
The 448 is your bore diameter and you have been wrapping to the 458 groove diameter ..

I have been loading to the barrel grove diameter (458)

Buy some naked bullets that are 441 or 442 and wrap them with 9# paper.  That will give you about 0.004 with 2 wraps
Shoot them at BORE diameter, not Groove with black powder

[crow_feather]

I wondered why a company would sell a .451 paper patch mould.  I forgot that some people shoot smokeless with paper patch.  I do get great groups though, but MUST clean after every shot or the bullet will not seat with any type of black powder.  Also the patch is cut to pieces with the groove diameter cartridge.  I will have to try some smaller diameter bullets and see if I need to get another mould. 

Thanks for the assistance.  It has really helped.

CF

[Lead pot]

Crow Feather.

A unpatched .451 bullet has a place if you have a chamber with a free bore throat like some of the originals and early Shiloh's and Pedersoli rifles had.
The bullet patched to groove diameter shot very good in those chambers.
A bullet patched to a throat that has the 45* step at the chamber end is not ideal if shooting black or smokeless powder, but it is acceptable with a deep seated bullet but you will only have the bullet past the case mouth to the point were the ogive radius starts.
This will work but when using black powder you will loose a lot of powder capacity.
I patch to groove if I intend to breach seat that bullet with a Pope type of bullet breach seating tool. The accuracy is out standing loading this way.
But you will hardly ever achieve great accuracy patching to groove diameter in a now "standard" chamber.
When you decide to start patching a PP bullet you should find the paper you want. I use a 100% cotton rag or parchment paper that is .002 thick. I have paper from .0014 to .0022 and bullets that are .009 under bore diameter to .002 depending how I want to use the load for.
The .441 to .445 or even as tight as .406 would be a good choice depending the paper you can find.
I will use a paper that is 1/2 thousand to onr thousand over the depth of the groove so I dont get the lead exposed to the bore when the land cuts through the patch.
This is my way and a lot of others do it differently but I found this to work best for me.
My suggestion is find a good quality paper and buy all you think you will ever use up and then get the mould that fits the diameter you want.
Any paper with a low clay and acid will work.
Cotton paper is the best.

Kurt

[Lead pot]

I forgot to add.
If you patch to bore diameter if the bore is .450 you must if your shooting black powder control the fouling.
No amount of lube you use will let you chamber the second or third round with out some sort of fouling control, like using a blow tube to get moisture down the bore to soften the black powder fouling. Or you can wipe with a damp patch and dry your chamber with a mop of some sort.
Or you can seat a bullet away from the throat a few thousands or use a patched bullet that is .002-.004 under bore.
But with out controlling the fouling your accuracy will never be good.

Kurt

[crow_feather]

That is one of the problems with groove diameter.  I can't get the second bullet to seat unless I wipe the bore.  With my 458 patched bullets, I get 1 & 1/2 to one hole groups but I don't want to wipe tween shots

CF

[oldcoot]

I wondered why a company would sell a .451 paper patch mould.  I forgot that some people shoot smokeless with paper patch.  I do get great groups though, but MUST clean after every shot or the bullet will not seat with any type of black powder.  Also the patch is cut to pieces with the groove diameter cartridge.  I will have to try some smaller diameter bullets and see if I need to get another mould. 

Thanks for the assistance.  It has really helped.

CF
[/The .451 dia mold you are referring to is mosst likely made by Lyman for the Whitworth copies out there.  They are .451 across the flats of their hexagonal bores.quote]

[Nobade]

Not the Whitworth, but the Volunteer. It's a .450 X .458 or so round rifled barrel. Essentially a 45-70 without the case. The Whitworth takes .458 bullets if you're using round bullets in it.

[oldcoot]

My whitworth only takes .458 bullets if you use a hammer and a steel rod to get them down the barrel.  You must be thinking of the round bore copy.  The HEXAHAGANAL bored replicas take a .451/.452 ROUND bullet.  Trying to force a  bullet the diameter of the diagonals .458 down the hexagonal bore would ruin the barrel.

[7 MM]

Not that it's gospil but I have used something a BP shooter told me and it seems to work
Take a cast boolit and patch it( I used a .446 boolit), doing the same as slugging a bore drive the patched boolit down the bore and measure and look at it .change the patch paper until 2 wraps works.
When it is right the patch will just be cut by the grooves and leave the boolit untouched.
Worked for me in a 71/84 Mauser.
You might give it a try


7 MM