Author Topic: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!  (Read 1571 times)

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Offline crazyjz

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Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« on: October 10, 2008, 11:44:24 PM »
Ok,

I've spent about 3 or 4 hours here and have come to the conclusion that I'm hosed.  I bought a NEF Survivor a couple of weeks ago chambered in .270.

I purchased three different manufacturers of ammo in 130g, 140g and 150g.  The gun was purchased used and came w a Simmons 44 Mag scope.  I was able to get two shots touching each other at 100 yds and then the 3rd and 4th shot would be 8" high and left.

After going through another 10 rds of another brand of ammo, I determined that it would have to be the scope.  The mounts, rings, etc. all checked out as plenty tight.

Installed a new Pentax Gameseeker 3.5X10X50 scope, re-boreshighted and tried again.  Same stuff.  Dialed it in, was able to put two shots in the bull, touching each other, third shot 6" to the right.  Fouth shot 6" rt and 4" low.  This is off a bench rest, no adjustments made to the scope.  I installed a third scope just to rule out optics but they are not the problem.

I own 6 other rifles, many with pencil barrels and not one performs like this.  This one was to be for my girlfriends son to hunt with.  I am ashamed to give it to him since I can't get it to perform anywhere near where it needs to be.

I read about the O-ring deal but it does not seem to apply to the plastic fore-end of the Survivor.  I tried it anyway and installed an O-ring that raises the front of the fore-end away from the barrel but it does not seem to affect anything.  Is there anything I could have missed w regard to my set up?

How could a rifle that so many people brag about be so inherently inaccurate?  If the scope is solidly affixed to the base with good solid rings and the base is affixed to the barrel solidly (checked all this), how can a bull barrel be affected to this extent?

In may opinion, a gun with a bull barrel like this, good optics, solid rest, 5 shot cloverleafs at 100 yds should be attainable.  Instead I am able to attain a 5 shot group that looks like the outline of a sweater.

Help!

Online Graybeard

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2008, 11:56:43 PM »
I'm not a handi rifle sorta guy so can give you no specifics on them but there are plenty here who can so they will be along later. I will say this from experience if that rifle can put the first two that close then the barrel is fine it is NOT the problem so you're not necessarily so bad off you've just gotten determine what is causing it.

Normally I'd suspect some aspect of the sighting system for such a problem and am not really willing just yet to rule it out even tho you've swapped out the scopes. That really only rules out the scope not the base/rings or how tightly they are attached.

Not being familiar with the problems of handi rifles I'd suggest removing the scope, rings, base and installing it all again. I'd check each screw independent of the others to make sure it is tightening down properly and not bottoming out. Once I had determined each will tighten properly then I'd install them and loc-tite each in place. I'd consider the possiblity rings are at fault. What type are they? Have they been lapped?

Once you've completed reworked that you've then eliminated the sighting system and can work on the other aspects of the rifle. With a bolt rifle like I'm used to I'd think bedding and am not sure I'd rule it out with the Handi but it's better we let the handi holics help on that.


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Offline jimmybirdwell

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2008, 02:05:40 AM »
crazyjz, You may be in for a real head ache. I own 2 handies, and only one will under 1" (.280) and that was with reloaded ammo. Seems that with a handi, you get one that will shoot and some that willnot. my .243 was also bought 2nd hand and have never got it to shoot better than a 2" group at 100yrds. this after about 2 years of doing every thing that the help sticky says to do and trying many different reloads. Finally buying a new barrel for it.
 I am not a fan of the handies, but come here for info on handies so I can fix the ones that I own. These guys know handies and are a great help.
 If you bought this 2nd hand , some one probably had the same problem that you are having now with it. so good luck with it , you will need it.
 I think that alot of the barrels chambers are over sized to accepts more loads and this hurts the performance of the rifles. If you reload you can work around that.
If you can't get it to shoot after reading the help sticky and getting help from these guys sell the rifle and get a new one. I might suggest a new barrel from Rem. but I would wait a few months until Rem. gets there stuff together.

 Man I hope you the best with this rifle. If you can afford it keep tinkering with it and you may end up with a shootable rifle.

                                             jim

Offline crazyjz

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2008, 02:20:30 AM »
Yeah,

I appreciate the sympathy.  I guess I am just unwilling to believe after all these years that I am ignorant about the basic concepts that make a rifle shoot.

If the cartridge is seated into the chamber flush, the action closed, the primer struck, the bullet has to go downrange guided by the straightness of the barrel, a steady rest,  the ability of the rifling to grip the bullet and the skill of the shooter.

If bullet (A) is the same as bullets (B), (C), (D), etc. and everything is the same to include the shooter, how come the first two impact at the same point, touching each other and the other two or three are eight inches away?

I will be uninstalling the base, scope and rings, replacing all with new units.  If this does not fix it, I guess I will box up the rifle and send it to NEF where they can do whatever they will with it.  I will be done.

If anyone has any other ideas, let me know.  So far I have spent just over $350.00 in ammo and scopes trying to get a $200 rifle to shoot.

Offline jimmybirdwell

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2008, 02:50:40 AM »
Crazyjz, I do feel your pain, and yes I thought that I knew more about reloading , shooting, hunting and fire arms than I did. My .243 handi proved I did not . Funny thing though, I own over 20 rifles and working 30 or more, the .243 handi was the only one that I could not make shoot and simply gave up on (after 3 scopes, 4 sets of mount, 5 different bullets, 3 powders, 4 different brasses so on so on).
 Warning, as I said before, I would wait a while before sending any thing back to  rem./nef. I have had major problems in the recent past and they are still not resolved.
                       Jim

Offline mrbgt

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2008, 03:29:10 AM »
how's your barrel to frame fit ? grab the end of the barrel and hold the reciever and twist , how much play do you have ? have you read the faq's , good info in those article's . I didn't think they made a .270 survivor, it may be a mix and match rifle , and it may need better fitting .my factory fresh survivor required a .001 shim to get a better lock up. btw .308 survivor is only shooting 2.5'' groups @ 100 yds with cheap hot shot ammo, so i don't read too much into the groups. i re-sized some brass yesterday . i'm looking for much better groups when i reload .
 

Offline wyohandi

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2008, 04:09:40 AM »
Are you shooting 3 shots fairly quick?
I know this sounds like a cop out answer but, let it
cool down between shots, like 5-10 min.
I have a 243 that i've thrown away twice,same problem
2 touching where's that third one? If I let it cool down
it puts them all in one big hole.
I guess if your taking the 270 to the prariedog town you need
better accuracy. I call my 243 a deer gun, never get more than
two shots off quick so I don't need to know how it groups 3-5 shot fast

Offline OBXPilgrim

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2008, 04:11:23 AM »
The fact that you rifle will shoot 2 shots that are touching or nearly touching tells me it's not an issue with an oversize barrel or a bad lock-up of barrel to receiver or anything like that.  Sounds like it's heat related to me.  

Are the 5 shots fired quickly, with just a few seconds and/or much less than a minute between them?

A handi it's a bolt gun.  It has a forearm that is hanging on a stub welded to the barrel.  How does the forarm fit?  Is it a tight fit that you can feel some good resistance between the barrel stud & the hole in the forearm?  When you tried the o-ring trick, did you check to see if there was clearance between the barrel and forearm, or was it still touching?  Was it touching without the o-ring?

Offline crazyjz

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 05:33:19 AM »
Hmmm,

Ok, here's some more info that may be helpful to some of you experienced NEF guys.

When shooting for groups, my shots are evenly spaced.  That is to say that I maintain a consistent regimen from shot to shot.  I would guess that this series of steps takes about 3 minutes between shots.

The plastic fore-end fits snugly.  The Survivor has what I believe to be a slightly different relationship between barrel, bold and fore-end.  I placed a small rubber O-ring over the stud that  the fore-end bolt threads into.  This prevented the barrel from contacting the plastic fins inside the fore-end.  I can take a dollar bill and slide it under the barrel all the way until it meets the stud.

Anyway, I find this whole thing unbelievable!  I would never have guessed that this thing was going to beat me!

I am going to go back and read the frequently asked questions and stickies again to see if I missed something.

Thanks for the help and let me know if you think of anything else.

Offline poncaguy

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2008, 10:06:22 AM »
Most of my Handi's shoot great 2 shot groups, especially my 270. Since I use it as a deer rifle, I never need more than 2 shots anyway..........

Offline Mitch in MI

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2008, 10:18:27 AM »
What are the last three digits of the frame's serial number?
What three digits are engraved on the mounting block of the barrel?
Are they the same?
How does the barrel lock up with the forearm removed?

Offline Swampman

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2008, 10:33:19 AM »
I would say this is typical of the .270 Handis, & the .270 Winchester cartridge in general.
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Offline nodlenor

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 03:56:42 AM »
I had a 270 Handi that performed about the same way. I tried three different scopes and several different kinds of ammo including factory and reloads averaging around 6" groups at 100 yds. I traded mine for a Howa. Best deal I ever made.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 06:55:46 AM »
H&R's standard for accuracy, or at least Gardner's was 2" 100yd 3-shot groups or better, dunno what Remington's standard is, but if anyone can't get 2" or better after using the simple fixes in the FAQs, they should return the rifle to H&R for repair/replacement of the barrel. I've had several 270 H&Rs, they've all been very accurate, one of my very first used barrels was a 270, it was the test mule for the barrel fitting I wrote for the FAQs, it shot 1½" groups with factory ammo and every one that I've shot has been accurate with nothing more than a little forend work, I still have 2, although the fluted barrel hasn't been shot, I expect it will shoot just as well as the 3 others that I've owned. ;)

Tim

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Offline crazyjz

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 02:14:02 PM »
Well, thanks,

I sure do appreciate all the suggestions and recommendations.  I think that I may have had unreasonable expectations.  With the factory dimensions of the .270 barrel that I have, I assumed that it would be capable of shooting at least 4 or 5 times w/o heat related accuracy issues. 

This .270 barrel shoots awesome two shot groups.  Often one ragged hole at 100 yds when I do my part.  The problem lies within the subsequent shots.  The group opens up to a 6 to 7" group immediately, without exception on the third and subsequent shots.  Each succesive shot moving further and further from the first two, seemingly w no rhyme or reason.

I have read and understand the information contained within the FAQ's and have resigned myself to the fact that this is a $200 rifle and just may not compete w the other rifles that I have, all of which can hold at least three shots within an inch at 100 yds.

Great forum here; I'll continue to keep an eye out for additional info.  Thanks again to all who helped.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2008, 02:59:27 PM »
Try a 5-shot group with the forend off, if it shoots a tight group, the forend needs work, that's one of the Handi Basics 101 tips.  Forend bedding is well covered in the FAQs, there are several ways to get it to shoot well besides just using an O-ring. Forend fit is covered in there too, that's where you start if it shoots well without the forend. ;)  But unless you're colony shooting varmints with the 270, knowing where the first couple of shots are going is all that's necessary for big game hunting.

Tim
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Offline wtroger

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2008, 04:24:35 PM »
If it still won't shoot with the forend off then it is probably barrel heat related. The problem is you might be able to fix it but you will spend more fixing it then the rifle is worth. You have to remember this barrel has been welded on and it more than likely was not stress relieved after it was rifled I have had other rifles that would not shoot more that 2 rounds with out taking off. I have also had rifles that would not shoot cold but would straighten right up on the third shot. The one that wouldn't shoot cold I had the barrel cryoed and it fixed it. The other one I rebarreled

Offline crazyjz

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2008, 11:55:46 PM »
Thanks again guys.

Offline LONGTOM

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2008, 03:48:02 AM »
Swampman:

"I would say this is typical of the .270 Handis, & the .270 Winchester cartridge in general".

While this may be true for a HANDI RIFLE I will take exception on the 270 cartridge in general.
Having been a 270 nut for over 40 years and a very large sampling of guns in this caliber I will say that it has been my experience that the 270 cartridge is one of the better (accuracy wise) rounds out there in the larger bores.
To be honest the only two rounds I've found to be more so are the Savages in 243 and a HANDI in 204.
I know not all guns will cut near 1" groups with any caliber but over the years I have had more rifles in 270 caliber do it consistently than any other cartridge that I have tried.


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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2008, 04:35:58 AM »
One thing that comes to mind, I don't recall the "survivor" being factory produced in .270 caliber. Was this a factory fitted barrel or what?
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Offline Fred M

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2008, 07:00:45 AM »
I would say this is typical of the .270 Handis, & the .270 Winchester cartridge in general.

Wow, now there is some great wisdom if I ever hear ed any.
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From Alberta Canada.

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2008, 07:13:00 AM »
Quote
I would say this is typical of the .270 Handis, & the .270 Winchester cartridge in general.

Swamp the more you post the more you display your gross lack of knowledge and/or understanding of guns. There is no round for which that is typical and especially not the .270. I've owned several Remington 700s in the chambering all light weight Mtn. Rifles and LLS Mountain rifles. Not a single one of them displayed any such traits and all easily kept three shots inside an inch at 100 yards with both Hornady and Federal Factory ammo.


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Offline Fred M

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2008, 07:30:01 AM »
GB.
How about elevating Swamp to the forums stand up comedian. That way nobody would take him serious. With his last statement he has removed all sense of sanity if he ever had any
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2008, 07:49:44 AM »
I've just never seen a .270 that would run with the .30-06.  That's why I've never liked the .270.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Online Graybeard

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2008, 08:15:33 AM »
What does "run with a .30-06 mean?

How many .270s have you ever owned and worked with and to what extent did you work with them?

Look at it with some sane and rational thought if that is possible for you. They use the same case. Bullet diameters are .308" and .277" that's a whopping .031" difference in diameter. Let's compare bullet weights available for both say a 150 grain. The '06 will start it about 100 fps faster due to the better expansion ration. The .270 has a much higher BC for it so by the time they get to 200 yards the .270 bullet is traveling faster and thus has more of everything but diameter and that is such a tiny difference as to be insignificant.

There is absolutely no difference in accuracy potential. Anything one will do the other will do equally as well unless you want to use bullets over the limit available in the .270 which is about 180 grains I believe. Darn few use heavier than that in the '06 so that's kinda moot.

With most bullets the .270 is a little bit flatter but not by much.

You are totally and completely illogical and just repeat from member crap you've said before that was as meaningless then as it is now. Unless you wake up smell the roses and learn something why bother repeating wrong info over and over?


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Offline petemi

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2008, 08:31:20 AM »
One thing that comes to mind, I don't recall the "survivor" being factory produced in .270 caliber. Was this a factory fitted barrel or what?

I thought they were all .308 ??? ??? ???
Quote
I would say this is typical of the .270 Handis, & the .270 Winchester cartridge in general.

Swamp the more you post the more you display your gross lack of knowledge and/or understanding of guns. There is no round for which that is typical and especially not the .270. I've owned several Remington 700s in the chambering all light weight Mtn. Rifles and LLS Mountain rifles. Not a single one of them displayed any such traits and all easily kept three shots inside an inch at 100 yards with both Hornady and Federal Factory ammo.

My wife and her Rem 700 stainless synthetic .270 Mountain rifle will punch bullet on top of bullet at 100 yards and she shoots chucks regularly on a fallen down shack 440 yards off our back porch.  Yeah, Swamp, it's just a crappy caliber.
Keep both eyes open and make the first shot good.
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Offline Jimbo47

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2008, 09:36:05 AM »
Well, thanks, 

This .270 barrel shoots awesome two shot groups.  Often one ragged hole at 100 yds when I do my part.  The problem lies within the subsequent shots.  The group opens up to a 6 to 7" group immediately, without exception on the third and subsequent shots.  Each succesive shot moving further and further from the first two, seemingly w no rhyme or reason.


A little confused by this statement!

If the barrel shoots "awesome two shot groups" and the subsequent shots spread out then the way I read it, that it's with a cold barrel when you first get to the range.

Then you leave make the changes, like change scopes and then shoot several shots to dial it in, and then it shoots two shot groups again and then the shots spread out again, is that correct?

If that is what is happening, then it would definitely have to be a heat issue, and possibly an issue with shooting form.

By shooting form I am referring mainly to how you hold, and rest the forearm of the rifle.

My rifle, (silicone bedded) shoots dead on when I rest the forend just behind the take down screw, and in front of the hinge spacer, or right in between them to be exact.

If I rest the rifle just behind the sling swivel and and take down screw my shots end up a few inches high.

I'm thinking that your problem then is either heat or inconsistency resting the forend or with the survivor stock you may not be getting a good consistent cheek weld also.

I would give that rifle to the boy, and teach him to always make the first shot count!

There are a lot of folks who would be more than happy to have a hunting rifle that consistently puts the first two shots almost in the same hole, because in reality you really won't need that second and surely you won't even have to worry about the third, because that deer will be either dead on the ground or gone after that first shot.
My culled down Handi's are the 45-70, and then I have a few others to keep it company...357 Mag/Max. .45 LC/.454 Casull Carbine, .243 Ultra, and 20 gauge Tracker II.

Offline poncaguy

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2008, 09:50:25 AM »
All in all, my 270's have been my most accurate, especially the Rem 700's I have owned..............and my new Marlin XL7 270 keeps the tradition going..........

Offline JonnyC

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2008, 01:35:40 PM »
The more I hear from Swampman- the more I realize he just likes to be contrary for effect. And we all fall for it from time to time. I wonder what would happen if he was just ignored. ;D
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Offline poncaguy

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Re: Survivor .270, couldn't hit a bull in the butt!
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2008, 03:04:47 PM »
His swamp would dry up................ ::)