Author Topic: 357 Maximum - WOW! (Read 3550 times)

Ololique · « **on:** October 07, 2008, 02:06:48 PM »

After a solid year of off and on trials and tribulations with my 357 Max Handi, I've finally zeroed in on a load that shoots very nicely! I've tried 180gr XTP's with moderate success, ~ 1800fps into 2-3" at 100yds. Hardly anything to sneeze at, but not what I'm looking for. I tried the 180gr SSPB from Hornady with DISMAL results. Great groups one day, 12"+ groups the next day. After digging around for different loads, I decided to try the Sierra 200gr RN, and I'm quite glad I did. I'm using IMR-4227, clocking 2100fps, and holding a 1.25" group (4 shots) at 100yds. Finally something that's consistent!! It's definitely on the upper edge of loading, but cases extract easily, primer pockets are still tight, and only minor flattening of the primers. Moral of the story? I've got one of the pickiest 357 Max's I've ever heard of, but if you're dealing with the same issue, try a 200gr RN. This truly turns the Max into the 35 Rem equivalent. Look out deer!!

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #1 on:** October 07, 2008, 03:06:38 PM »

Yep that load will put a hurting on any whitetail. Have you tried any hardcast? Mine really likes 180gr LBT style WFNGCs with 22gr of IMR4227 cruzin about 2000FPS, It shoots close to an inch at 100 all day long.

Ololique · « **Reply #2 on:** October 07, 2008, 04:48:05 PM »

At the same time I bought the 200gr RN bullets, I picked up some 200gr WFNGC also. I've yet to try them out in the Max just yet. They do have quite an appealing look to them though

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #3 on:** October 08, 2008, 12:58:06 AM »

I just reamed mine to 357 Max. I loaded a few (6) 200 grain Remington round noses with Lil'Gun. They were not hot at all getting around 1950-2000 fps. I vertically strung the three I shot for groups 1.34" X <.5" at 50 yards. Very promising. I also vertically strung some 125 grain bullets, but they were tighter; .870" X .2"; it was a VERY mild load; I got just over 2300 fps. Not a deer load, but potential for a varmint/predator, walk around load. I was messing around with the scope and found I did not tighten the rings to the base very well, or they shot loose with just a few shots. I probably did not tighten them as well as I should have. That could explain the vertical stringing. I had just so-so results with the XTP's also, but I did not shoot a lot of them. I looked up the XTP to see what kind of velocity they are to perform at. They said that 1700 fps was the top velocity. I think they would not hold together very well at 2200 fps. I am going to do some more experimenting with the 200 grain bullets. I have some more loaded up with Lil'Gun. I think the 357 Max has great potential with the little shooting I did. I want to try some Speer 180 FP with AA1680 too. I have the XTP's on hand and loaded up some with 1680, just to see velocity potential and to see if the XTP's shoot any better They might make another good "walk around" gun load. That was a suggested load from another member that has been shooting the 357 Max for a while. He says the Speer will hold together fine for shoulder shots and he gets good velocity/accuracy from them too. I would think your 200 grain round nose bullets would make good deer medicine.

FW Conch · « **Reply #4 on:** October 08, 2008, 04:31:02 AM »

Ololique I, & I'm sure others out here, would like to hear about the terminal performance you get
from those 200gr Sierra RN's. I'm sure you'll be catching with them deers in short order.

Good Luck!

Ololique · « **Reply #5 on:** October 08, 2008, 09:47:59 AM »

Can do!! I'll let you know if anything falls to the Max this year

db22 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 08, 2008, 03:30:34 PM »

Yup, I got the same result -- inconsistent accuracy with the 180 grain XTP and Lil Gun, and a huge improvement when I switched to the Hornady 200 grain jacketed round nose. Haven't used Lil Gun much with the 200, but had good results with a case full of Reloder 7. Can't find IMR 4227 around here at all, but I suspect that it's about optimum with a 200 grain jacketed bullet. Have also had very good results with the 215 grain Lyman 358627, made with #2 alloy, gas checked and lubed with plain old Lyman Alox. My bore slugs .357", but have had best luck sizing the big SWCs to .359". I bet 4227 would do well with this bullet, too, if I could just find some.

My .357 barrel has a typical very long throat, long even after being reamed to Max. Instead of agonizing over trying to seat the bullet close to the leade, I just seat the jacketed 200 to the cannelure and crimp, and the Lyman to the rear crimp groove, lubing only the big lube groove and the little gap between the rear driving band and the gas check. That yields a pocketable cartridge with no exposed lube, and still doesn't seem to lead the bore to any great extent.

I had a Williams aperture sight on the .357 barrel for a long time, but have finally given up and gone to a 2.5X scope, my eyesight having gotten weaker lately. With a wood MC stock on the frame, there's no recoil to speak of, at all. You know you've touched off something bigger than a .22, but the little shove that even a full-throttle load gives is not enough to make me flinch. The .357 Max is just about a perfect "old man's deer rifle".

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #7 on:** October 09, 2008, 01:40:39 AM »

db22, We got about the same result as the IMR4227 with AA 1680 it was a little down on velocity compared to it but it shot very well.
4227 is by far my favorite powder in the max.

db22 · « **Reply #8 on:** October 10, 2008, 12:37:21 PM »

Badnews -- Thank you for the confirmation on IMR 4227. I have tried H110 with the big Lyman cast boolit, and it seemed to do about as well as Rel7 or Lil Gun. If I remember correctly, H110 is nothing but a repackaged version of one of Winchester's ball powders. Now that Winchester powders are distributed by Hodgdon, I imagiine that overlap will be eliminated once the inventory is sold off.

The only problem I have with ball is that it leaks all over the place. I originally bought the H110 for 3" .410 loads, and I keep the shop vac by the MEC to clean up the dusting of powder that leaks during a loading session. It seems to migrate all over my Lee measure on the metallic loading bench, too. Makes the drum difficult to move consistently.

dpe.ahoy · « **Reply #9 on:** October 10, 2008, 02:04:50 PM »

H-110 binds up my Lyman DPS unit as well. Thats the main reason I tryed LilGun first, but it does so good with 357 mag and 45 colt I keep buying LilGun. DP

cwlongshot · « **Reply #10 on:** October 10, 2008, 05:45:44 PM »

Quote from: FW Conch on October 08, 2008, 04:31:02 AM

Oblique I, & I'm sure others out here, would like to hear about the terminal performance you get
from those 200gr Sierra RN's. I'm sure you'll be catching with them deers in short order. Good Luck!

The 35rem advertises the 200gr bullet @ 2050fps and rarely does it actually get going that fast.... SO if you getting and honest 2200fps your beating the factory's velocity. So performance should be at least as stellar as the 35 Rem is...

GREAT to hear we have another believer!!

Good luck with it.

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** October 10, 2008, 07:08:34 PM »

The 35 Rem has a lot more potential than the 357max, I get 2150fps with 200gr cast bullets in my 35 Rem Handi using Varget and Hodgdon data, 1950fps with 240gr. Haven't tried the Layne Simpson data, but it looks pretty good to me, his super 35 Rem data shows 2300+fps for 200gr jacketed bullets. The 35 Rem has a case capacity of 50.8grs water, the 357max holds just 32.7grs.

Tim

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=66

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=63

Ololique · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2008, 08:08:30 AM »

The 357 Max took it's first deer this past Saturday. A nice mature doe, broadside at 50yds. The bullet entered right behind the the shoulder and exited the off side. It left a very distinctive .358 diameter hole going in and about 1.5"-2" oblong exit hole. The deer ran 50yds and dropped. The blood trail was very profuse. Upon field dressing, I saw that both lungs were hit, and the chest cavity was completely filled with blood. A very decisive victory for the 357Max using the Sierra 200gr RN at 2100fps. I'll be heading back out with the rifle with hopes of more reports. Stay tuned...

cwlongshot · « **Reply #13 on:** November 17, 2008, 10:05:17 AM »

CONGRATULATIONS!!!

CW

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #14 on:** November 17, 2008, 10:56:26 AM »

Good job, Max= deer meat in freezer.

Graybeard · « **Reply #15 on:** November 17, 2008, 11:04:36 AM »

I have to wonder what kinda pressures you guys are running with those max'es to reach .35 Rem velocity from such a small case. Are you using book data for it or some wild internet data? I realize the .35 Rem is generally held to some fairly low pressure levels as compared to most modern centerfires but there is I think a good deal more case capacity in it isn't there? Anyone compared case capacity of the two?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** November 17, 2008, 11:29:22 AM »

I posted the case capacities over a month ago.

Tim

Quote from: quickdtoo on October 10, 2008, 07:08:34 PM

The 35 Rem has a lot more potential than the 357max, I get 2150fps with 200gr cast bullets in my 35 Rem Handi using Varget and Hodgdon data, 1950fps with 240gr. Haven't tried the Layne Simpson data, but it looks pretty good to me, his super 35 Rem data shows 2300+fps for 200gr jacketed bullets. The 35 Rem has a case capacity of 50.8grs water, the 357max holds just 32.7grs.

Tim

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=66

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=63

Graybeard · « **Reply #17 on:** November 17, 2008, 11:59:01 AM »

You do understand I don't read here that much to have seen it? I still haven't as that site doesn't work on my computer. It kept giving continuous pop-ups about java something or other. So I still have no clue. Matters not really was just wondering if the performance folks are getting is really obtained safely. Since none of you shoot near me I'm not gonna be harmed if ya blow your gun up.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** November 17, 2008, 12:03:43 PM »

Matt needs to update the Java platform on your PC so it will work, it's a free download.

Hodgdon lists maximum pressure for just the 180gr FMJ load at 46.9kcup in the 2008 Annual, so the pressure is definitely up there.

Tim

http://www.java.com/en/

Graybeard · « **Reply #19 on:** November 17, 2008, 12:18:03 PM »

I do not allow Java on my computer.

cwlongshot · « **Reply #20 on:** November 17, 2008, 12:55:43 PM »

First and formost, mine are all "book" loads.

Even though I do not have any way to check or test the actual pressures. I rely on experience to tell me I am safe. My cases extract smoothly and easily. My cases do not excessively stretch or need excessive trimming, primer pockets have stayed tite. The primers while visibly flatter after firing, they are by no means excessively flattened. The handy operates as it should, no issues with open on firing, hard to open or action stiffness.

I think you hit on ONE of the biggest difference, operating pressures, the maxi is a new kid on the block, commercialized in the early '80's. While grand dad 35 Rem is one of our older calibers. The other difference, the maxi is for all intent and purpose a PISTOL caliber. While the 35 Rem has all but exclusively been a rifle caliber. So the vast majority of the data out there is collected for the Maxi is from SHORT barrels in relation to the 21/22" Handy's we launch them from. Also combine that with modern propellants all works for the Maxi's favor of achieving top velocity and energy while operating with in the pressure limits of its original cambering.

CW

db22 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 17, 2008, 03:01:47 PM »

My load with Rel7 and the Hornady 200-grain RN is a case full, and slightly compressed. Primers are not abnormally flat, and case life is good. The source was the Alliant website, but I believe that the Sierra 200-grain pistol bullet was the one specified. That would have a diameter of .357", and the Hornady is supposed to be .358". My rifle's bore slugs at .357", but .001" doesn't seem to be a very big difference.

I think that Rel7 is a bit on the slow side for the .357 Max, even using a jacketed bullet of 200 grains weight. I feel safe using this load, but will be interested to hear the opinions of others who have tried this combination.

Ololique · « **Reply #22 on:** November 17, 2008, 03:53:55 PM »

The only similarities between the 357Max and the 35 Remington are bore diameter (357/358) and achievable velocities. Sure, the 357Max operates at significantly higher pressures than the 35 Rem, but the SB2 Handi is built strong enough to be able to utilize those higher pressures. My 35 Remington uses 37+gr of H4895 to get the 200gr RN above 2100fps. My 357 Max uses alot less IMR4227 to get the same results. Am I "over" pressure for the SB2 reciever? Highly doubtful, especially when it handles cartridges in the 60,000psi range safely (500S&W). While I don't have pressure data for my load, I have worked up slowly, taking notice of signs of high pressure. Haven't seen anything that I quantify as dangerous, as my primers are only slightly flattened, cases extract easily, and more importantly, the cases stretch very, very minimally with every firing. I don't see anything glaring that would indicate dangerous pressure levels. Given the available steel that surrounds the 357Max chamber, I feel 100% safe.

Graybeard · « **Reply #23 on:** November 17, 2008, 06:36:48 PM »

The FIRST reliable sign of too high pressure is when the gun comes from together to apart. Do not trust old wive's tales of pressure signs. RL7 is a dangerous powder I gave up on long ago. It can jump from seemingly safe to blowing primers and locking up the gun in a half grain when you are at or over max. It takes HUGE leaps ahead in pressure with tiny increases in powder.

Steve P · « **Reply #24 on:** November 18, 2008, 08:52:34 AM »

I like the AA1680 in my max. I use a Remington 7 1/2 primer which burns it a little hotter and a little cleaner. You have to drop your load 2-3 grains and work up. Two of three of my guns went from >2.0 to <1.0 by switching primers and working back up.

Steve

cwlongshot · « **Reply #25 on:** November 19, 2008, 02:44:24 PM »

Quote from: Steve P on November 18, 2008, 08:52:34 AM

I like the AA1680 in my max. I use a Remington 7 1/2 primer which burns it a little hotter and a little cleaner. You have to drop your load 2-3 grains and work up. Two of three of my guns went from >2.0 to <1.0 by switching primers and working back up.

Steve

This is the powder I like as well.. I got very good accuracy and good velocity.

I tried many powders, this one was head a sholders better from my barrel.

CW

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #26 on:** November 20, 2008, 02:40:21 AM »

I do not get it. No one seems to get excited about running 45-70's way up in pressure, but if you talk about running 357 MAX up in pressure, people get excited. There is less stress on the frame and components with a 357 Max if they both have the same pressure. I am not saying it is OK to run the 357 MAX way up in pressure. I do not think it is prudent to run the 45-70 way up in pressure either. According to the Hornady 7th edition - 50,000 CUP for Ruger loads. That is a mighty big case to be running 50K CUP in. The 357 MAX is 48,000 CUP. I guess I am in the minority for sure, but it just does not seem to add up to me. If it is safe to run 50K in a 45-70 why wouldn't it be OK to run say 55K CUP in a 357 Max case?

Graybeard · « **Reply #27 on:** November 20, 2008, 05:57:01 AM »

Given those examples of yours I'd say that would be perfectly OK. With the .45-70 for the most part I think when folks start running the pressures up too high the recoil brings them back to their senses but yes I'm sure some do run it to dangerously high levels for the strength of the handi rifles.

My concern with the .357 max is not with book listed loads that stay within SAAMI pressure levels as I'm sure a properly chambered handi is more than capable of handling those. It's when folks go beyond book pressure tested loads and begin using internet supplied loads that it bothers me.

The .35 Remington I'm pretty sure has a lot more case capacity than it does. I did ask but never got an answer as to whether anyone had actually compared the capacity of the two. When you run a much smaller case hard enough to exceed what is generally considered max loads for a much larger case then there is no way to know what pressures you are getting. That is what bothers me. The .445 super mag is yet another commonly done the same. SSK Industries will rechamber a .44 magnum to .444 Marlin but not to .445 for that very reason too many folks try to run it at too high of pressure level and blow them up.

The .357 max doesn't have all that much greater case capacity than the .357 mag really so the velocity that I see folks claiming for it cause me to worry about what kinda pressure they are running. So long as you stick to data from loading manuals that have been pressure tested and do so in chambers recut to proper SAAMI dimensions for it rather than just sticking it in your .357 magnum chambered handi I'm sure you'll be safe. From what I read from some here tho I just don't think that's what they are doing. Seeing the other info posted here bothers me.

bajabill · « **Reply #28 on:** November 20, 2008, 10:32:21 AM »

I only get ~1950 fps with a 180 hornady xtp from my 22" maxi. That is with H110, about a half grain over book. Pushing a 200gr up to 2100 seems strong.

LaOtto222 · « **Reply #29 on:** November 20, 2008, 10:44:36 AM »

I took this from Tim's post above

"The 35 Rem has a case capacity of 50.8grs water, the 357max holds just 32.7grs."

I did not measure it, I am taking Tim's word on it. There is a considerable difference (only 64% as much). However the 357 Max (48K CUP) does run at considerably higher pressure than a 35 Remington. I do not have access to my reference material right now, but If I remember correctly the 35 Remington runs around 37,000 CUP. I have no idea how much the pressure is going to make. Like I said I do not have reference material here, but if you compared 2 14" T/C barrel's one in 357 Max and one in 35 Remington, we might be able to see if they are close or not. It would at least give you an idea how much, if any difference there is. You can use book values for the 357 MAX, but unless you run them over a chronograph, you will not have any idea what you will get. All the reliable published data I can find is for shorter barrels.