Author Topic: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles  (Read 1306 times)

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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« on: October 07, 2008, 01:01:24 AM »
The question has been raised about the use of PVC pipe for projectiles for cannons.

I would not.

I am using it in my mortar, where the pressures are a bit lower, and (for the most part) 'getting away with it'.  [That should raise a RED flag if you have any concern for safety.]

There are two types of pvc pipe - high strength and foam core.  The high strength will handle more pressure, the foam core says right on it NOT for pressure.

Depending on how you make the round, there is an opportunity for pressure to sneak inbetween the concrete and the inside of the tubing wall.  IF you used a disk underneith the round you could easily prevent this.

When the pressure goes inbetween the wall and the concrete the obvious happens - the two seperate with the plastic breaking.

I have successfully used the high strength over many years (read aging of plastic) and multiple firings.  But the foam (for the first time used a year after making, aged in the outdoor weather) has exhibited a failure under a heavy load.

Choose your materials wisely, test them.  Improve the design.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline cannonmn

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Offline Double D

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2008, 03:17:56 AM »
John,

I sure hope that is an old video and you have given up using FFG in those big cannons.  Remember what Switlik found with his pressure test.  Equal loads of FG has a 40% increase of pressure over over Cannon Grade.  Since FFg has a faster burn rate that Fg it will have a higher pressure than FG.

As much as you shoot those big guns the Folks at Back Creek Gun Shop should really like to see you coming.

Tim,

I am reading between the lines here, did you have a round come apart over the week end?  Pictures?


Offline KABAR2

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2008, 04:14:02 AM »
PVC should be O.k. for rounds the type of pressure they are talking about is
fluid pressure once filled with an epoxy I doubt it would dislodge it would become a skin just like a soup can
or soda can which are much thinner.
 
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2008, 03:03:34 PM »
If there is a small crack between the concrete and the pvc there is a huge pressure differential between it and the outside (as the projo is exiting the bore). 

Cpt Ed had asked if I would recommend it for cannons.  As I have used them in mortars I would NOT.  But were the crack sealed or blocked with a baseplate there would be a completely different story.  PVC pipe is made to very close tolerances and sizes - that's a motivation to find a working solution.

Over the last 5 or so years of shooting these I've noticed one or two chips coming out from the pvc on the 2nd or 3rd firing of the round.  In general the fragments go in much the same direction as the core, flaring out 30 to 50 feet out the bore.  This year, using the foam filled, we had one separation from firing a recycled round from last year.  We had one separation of 1/2 the concrete coming out of the tube on impact.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline p51

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2008, 03:15:06 PM »
I saw a guy try this with a WW1 German mortar over the summer. It peeled the PVC back like a sabot, which then fell rather harmlessly about 10 feet from the tube. I can't imagine what it would do in something more powerful.
"When all else fails, call for indirect fire on your position, AND GET THE HELL OUT!"
-Exact words of one of my 'call for fire' class instructors.
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2008, 03:22:51 PM »
The modern beercans filled with concrete will often open up like a daisy since the aluminum is SO thin.

I use soup cans, still made of STEEL in my 1974/75 vintage mortar.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline intoodeep

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2008, 03:09:52 AM »
CW,

 Thanks for your reply. I had spoken with Cpt Ed about a cost effective projectile for a 4.62" bore (Mt. Howitzer). This is when your PVC concept came to light. We just didn't see how it really stayed together so, we thought we would ask. Anyway, the idea of using PVC for a projectile has been scrapped as I have found a 4.5" ball that is reasonable and it may suit or needs.

 If anyone out there has a practical suggestion (cannonmn?) for a projectile please let me know. I think people are starting to give me strange looks as I walk around the supper market with a tape measure, measuring every other thing in site....  :D  :D
If you make it idiot proof, then, someone will make a better idiot.


Offline subdjoe

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2008, 03:30:15 AM »
intoodeep wrote: " I think people are starting to give me strange looks as I walk around the supper market with a tape measure, measuring every other thing in site...."

Of course they are - you should be using calipers rather than a tape measure.
Your ob't & etc,
Joseph Lovell

Justice Robert H. Jackson - It is not the function of the government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2008, 03:40:57 AM »
Try carrying a clipboard and a calculator into the supermarket sometime - you'll need a stopwatch to measure the number of seconds before the manager is right beside you.

For the 4.62 you might consider the PVC pipe cap for 4" pvc pipe.  Closed, filled with concrete, doesn't have the issues of the open ended pipe.

Juice cans are about 4.25".  They can be shimmed at top and bottom with tape.

Make a disk onto which is bolted what ever you want to launch.

(some ideas)

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2008, 12:28:22 AM »
I sometimes use projectiles made of PVC pipe backed by bore-sized 3/4-inch thick plywood disks, as I recall this is what I show in the video I linked above.  I don't bother with anything like concrete since I find it unnecessarily labor-ingtensive.  I tape the plywood plug onto the back of the pvc pipe then fill the pipe with sand, then tape over the front of it to keep sand out of the bore.  I've shot that load in rifled breechloading BP cannons where the PVC pipe is correct size to be engraved by the rifling, and at 100 yards the projectile is quite accurate.  Of course it always breaks up on impact, but sked 40 PVC pipe isn't that expensive.  We've also used the thicker sked 80 pipe that usually has to be bought at specialty plumbing suppliers, and it is more expensive, I have to think twice "do I really need that thickness" before buying a hunk of it.

I cut the plywood disks with the closest size of hole saw from a cheap Harbor Freight set of multiple-size hole saws.  I use a drill press to mount the hole saw, as a hand drill is very hard to control.

So a question I have is why use concrete if sand would work?  However note that sand is not rigid and in acceleration probably could swell the pipe somewhat and exert some additional force on the bore, so I only use it in very strong guns.  If there's any doubt concrete is better since it takes away that extra uncertainty.

On the topic of things falling apart in the bore, if the PVC fits against the bore fairly close, it is worth a try I think.  The plywood disk is being pressed onto the end of the PVC pipe with a great deal of force during inbore acceleration, and as long as the rear of the pvc was cut square, I don't think any significant amount of gas is going to get inside the projectile at launch, I've never seen this happen.

If you are worried about things coming apart, check out the schedule 80 pvc pipe, it is something like 1/4 in. thick and incredibly strong stuff.

Here's the table of dimensions, both OD and ID, top table is the cheaper white sked 40, bottom is the thick, more costly gray stuff.  Go by the OD size to get something close to your bore, ignore the column on left as that is just a name rather than a true dimension.  I have machined PVC pipe on a lathe to get a "bit too large" size to fit, make a simple mandrel to support the inside of the pipe and center it as it is too squishy to swing in a lathe without some form of mandrel.  PVC  cuts very cleanly and easily on a lathe.  Take a copy of the table along with your calipers when shopping:

http://www.harvel.com/pipepvc-sch40-80-dim.asp

I've only used this system in very strong orignial steel and bronze guns in good condition, I don't recommend it for any old cast-iron unlined guns, part of the success I think depends on a very smooth bore (or rifled) so as not to hang up or break projectile.  I would also use very moderate loadings while trying this out,if you do so.  I am only recommending this for "advanced gunners" who have a lot of experience and "know the piece" they are firing, I would not suggest doing this unless you have fired a good deal with traditional projectiles first.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2008, 01:45:28 AM »
 I'd mention here that ABS and PVC are two different materials used for plumbing, and they have different properties.

 ABS "DWV" (Drain, Waste, Vent) tubing is probably not the best for a cannon projectile due to the low (or no) pressure rating of the tubing...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

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Offline KABAR2

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Re: Use of PVC pipe filled with concrete for projectiles
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2008, 04:18:56 AM »
Ok I had to do some mold making at work using Epoxy Resin I always make some extra

so I dont come up short, I pored the extra into a 2" PVC pipe, which I plan to turn on

the lathe so there will be a bore rider of just under 57 MM (bore size) the resin adhears

to the pvc in a way that cement can not. I will photograph these during the process

and as time permits post some photo's. I plan to use these in a mortar.


 
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium