Author Topic: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag  (Read 11311 times)

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Offline blacknwhite

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7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« on: October 06, 2008, 04:42:28 PM »
Any of you have both? I have been wondering what the actual difference in performance is. I have noticed that with max loads the muzzle velocity is only a couple hundred FPS higher from the 7mm Rem mag yet it uses much more powder. Anyone have any insight?

Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 05:32:25 PM »
Any of you have both? I have been wondering what the actual difference in performance is. I have noticed that with max loads the muzzle velocity is only a couple hundred FPS higher from the 7mm Rem mag yet it uses much more powder. Anyone have any insight?
It is the 280 that is just a couple hundred feet per second slower than the 7MM Rmm. Mag. Although the 7MM-08 is a great round. Dale
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Offline blacknwhite

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2008, 05:56:13 PM »
Just looked on Hogdon website and this is what it says for max loads with the same grain bullet.

    7mm                                                                                                      max      FPS
120 GR. HDY SP    IMR    IMR 4895    .284"    3.230"    54.0    3049    52,200 PSI    57.9    3189    58,700 PSI




  7mm-08                                                                                                     max      FPS
 120 GR. NOS BT    IMR    IMR 4895    .284"    2.800"    41.5    2861    43,900 CUP    44.0    3022    49,800 CUP

Offline blacknwhite

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 06:14:25 PM »
Dale,

I'm like you, I thought it to be much different as well. I wonder if this data is correct. Maybe one of the members has tested both with a chronograph.

Offline onesonek

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2008, 07:10:51 PM »
Any of you have both? I have been wondering what the actual difference in performance is. I have noticed that with max loads the muzzle velocity is only a couple hundred FPS higher from the 7mm Rem mag yet it uses much more powder. Anyone have any insight?

I don't have either, but here's how I look at. First off I set all my hunting rigs set up with a point blank range sighting for a given animal.
If you use the same bullet set up with the same PBR parameters in the 2 different rounds, you roughly gain 25yds or so in PBR per 100 fps increase. So I guess it depends on what your uses and style of hunting are. If you feel you need the extra energy is needed  or not. Whether the extra range is needed or not. Sometimes I consider efficiency, sometimes not.  Hunt within the limitations of the cartridge's capability, and you would be hard pressed to find a more practical round than the 7-08 in my opinion.

Dave

PS. And looking a 3 different manuals 200 fps difference looks about right until you start pushing the heavier weights

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2008, 06:06:50 AM »
Any of you have both?
Funny you should ask!  I've got a 7/08 (and a 7x57) but no 7mm Mag.  I was just talking to my hunting buddy, he's having a problem sighting in his .270, and we got around to talking about the Ruger 7mm Mag he has and has never shot!  Says he doesn't need the capabilities of the Mag and doesn't want the recoil.   :o  I know... I know.   ::)  He should get rid of the Mag and/or just get a 7/08, but my pal doesn't think like most people...  :D

So he asked me to bring it home with me and work up (down?) some reduced loads for him.  I thought it might be fun since I've got a bunch of 7mm Mag brass I picked up a long time ago, just in case...  ;D  So I guess I'll be comparing the two (3?) next year! :P
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Offline yooper77

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2008, 07:13:04 AM »
I love the 284 caliber.  I am not a magnum fan.  I love any cartridge that comes from the 30-06 Sprigfield and 308 Winchester parent cases.

I load for my 7mm-08 Remington and 7x57 Mauser Ackely Improved 140 grain bullets and IMR-4064 and IMR-4064 respectively.

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Offline IOWA DON

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2008, 10:33:24 AM »
The loading data may be correct, but IMR 4895 is too fast burning a powder for a 7MM Mag, except for a reduced velocity load. One ought to be able to get a lot more velocity out of a 7MM Mag with IMR 4831 or IMR 7828. Actually, one should be able to get about 3100 fps with a 160-grain bullet from a 7MM Mag with the right powder. I have a 7X57 which I use for target practice and a 7MM STW which I use for hunting. The 7MM STW can be zeroed for 300 yards and is about 7 inches low at 400 yards. The 7X57 with fairly low pressure loads is zeroed for about 225 yards and is (I think) about 7 inches low at not much over 300 yards. The 7X57 does not recoil much, has less muzzle blast, and I am sure the barrel will last a lot longer before burning out. For hunting if one compares 400 yards to 300 yards most people see a 33 percent increase in range capabiltity. So do I, but within circle with a 400 yard radius there is more than 70 percent more land than within a circle with a 300 yard radius. In open country, I don't know if that translates into 70 percent more game withishooting range. However, I think its a significant improvement. In a wooded area where one does not see deer sized game more than 200 yards away, I think the costs outweigh the benefits of a 7MM Mag compared to a 7MM-08.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2008, 11:07:34 AM »
Comparing data on the same powder in a belted magnum case and the same diameter bore in a case on the .308 case is not showing their potentials as they aren't exactly optimum with the same powders. Look instead at what is the MAX possible velocity for each with any given bullet weight regardless of powder used and you'll see the true differences in any two such rounds.

Still the comparison is some what valid in that there is little real world differenc unless you are one of those enamored with paper energy. Out to even 400 yards which is beyond sane range for 90%+ of today's hunters the difference in drop is a couple inches or so and none of us can see 2" at 400 yards. Use what ya like but there is no need to be banged around by a magnum for deer hunting.


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Offline mcwoodduck

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2008, 12:36:02 PM »
The same as 308 to 300 Win Mag.  The belted mag will sail the same sized projectile about 100 to 300 feet per second at the open end of the rifle.  The difference gets larger the heavier the bullet. 
Think of it this way the 7mm will hit in foot pounds at 175 yards where the 7-08 will at 100 and at 200 yards the 7mm mag will only drop 5.4 inches but the the 7-08 will drop 8.3.  Still with in a deer.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2008, 03:20:43 PM »
Just looked on Hogdon website and this is what it says for max loads with the same grain bullet.

    7mm                                                                                                      max      FPS
120 GR. HDY SP    IMR    IMR 4895    .284"    3.230"    54.0    3049    52,200 PSI    57.9    3189    58,700 PSI




  7mm-08                                                                                                     max      FPS
 120 GR. NOS BT    IMR    IMR 4895    .284"    2.800"    41.5    2861    43,900 CUP    44.0    3022    49,800 CUP


  Thing is, your compareing them with 120 grain bullets...  What are you going to hunt? Varmits??  For big game 140's are as light as i'd go in the 7-08, and 150's in the mag...

  For deer at reasonable ranges, the 7-08 is all you need, but for elk on up, the mag will drive the heavier bullets fast enough to shoot flatter and give the kind of penetration you need on bigger animals...

  DM

Offline Old English

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2008, 04:53:39 PM »
I have a 7 Rem Mag and it is woefully inefficient in the powder dept. I mean loads of powder for minimal increase in power. However, I use it for hunting and a pound of powder lasts a lot of seasons. The 7RM gives an increase of power and recoil is not at all unpleasant, less so than a 30-06 in my rifle.
No need to go the 7RM route but if starting from scratch no real world reason not to. I like mine and it puts the bullet where the crosshair says it should. Certainly kills them tick toters stone dead

Offline Mr. Joe

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2008, 04:55:15 PM »
No comparison.  The 7 rem mag is ALOT faster with all bullet weights.  I load 160s to 3150, and 175s to 3050 over my chronograph with no pressure signs.  My 7mm0-08 cant touch it.  With 140s, i cant goose more than about 2850 fps and that's with a 24 inch barrel.  It really doesn't matter though.  Its best to look at whats a better match.  I personally hunt animals the size of white tail, mullies, and antelope more often than elk, so i use a 7-08, .260 or 7x57 more frequently. These would all work fine for elk, but with longer ranges, the heavier faster 7mag is hard to argue with.  If your looking for efficiency, no doubt anything off the .308 or 8x57 case wins, but try to match the hatch if you will.  
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2008, 05:26:24 PM »
Just looked on Hogdon website and this is what it says for max loads with the same grain bullet.

    7mm                                                                                                      max      FPS
120 GR. HDY SP    IMR    IMR 4895    .284"    3.230"    54.0    3049    52,200 PSI    57.9    3189    58,700 PSI




  7mm-08                                                                                                     max      FPS
 120 GR. NOS BT    IMR    IMR 4895    .284"    2.800"    41.5    2861    43,900 CUP    44.0    3022    49,800 CUP


  Thing is, your compareing them with 120 grain bullets...  What are you going to hunt? Varmits??  For big game 140's are as light as i'd go in the 7-08, and 150's in the mag...

  For deer at reasonable ranges, the 7-08 is all you need, but for elk on up, the mag will drive the heavier bullets fast enough to shoot flatter and give the kind of penetration you need on bigger animals...

  DM

No doubt about it. This may be intentional or unintentional, but the comparison is slanted & makes the difference in the 2 appear smaller than it really is. I do not know why a 120 grain would be used in a 7mmmag anyway, but certainly not for wind drift, I don't get it. The 7RM is much hotter in all bullet weights, but the spread grows as the bullet weight increases & esp. in recent years with new powders. If you want to talk sources, the 7RM has a 387fps
edge with the 140 in the new Nosler Manual & that's the way it goes when we pick sources & I don't like that much, you have to average ALL sources , make sure the best powders are used for each round & with the proper barrel length for each. As some said, they both have their purpose & the 7-08 is one of the better Deer rounds, but that was not the question at all, the question was the difference in performance. With the optimum gun & loads for both rounds, their is alot more than 200fps difference unless you grab a source that fits your desires. Under best conditions for both, figure 300-350fps diff on average & sometimes slightly more as the Nosler & others show with some bullets. The cartridge that shows 200fps diff. would be the 280 with some bullets at a little under 200fps diff. & some slightly over. The 280AI gives about 75-100fps gain over the 280 depending on bullet & to me a round that
now has 2 sources of ammo & brass avail. & gets within 100fps of the belted case is a cool place to reside.
As great as the 7-08 is, when asking only of performance the 2 are not on the same page.
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2008, 02:11:08 AM »
I have had several 708's two rifles and one XP-100 all shot good , a couple of hunting friends liked them and got them for their kids they would use it on deer and always say it kills better than it should . I have heard others say the same . Guess they start with low expectations and get a suprise . Guess the marketing folks have been successful in promoting the magnum craze .
I also hunt with a 7X30 waters and use 120 gr. bullets , i have taken does to 12 pointers with it and never had one move more than 30 yards after the shot , never recovered a bullet as they all passed Thru.. even when both shoulders were hit . Should i say it does better than it should ? What i can say is it is a dream to shoot and the lack of excessive recoil aids in a good shot and follow up shots ( WE CAN KILL MORE THAN ONE A DAY i got two 8 pointers running together a few years ago ) .
That all said one must not discount bullet speed , 200 feet per second faster is just that and it could make a difference in some cases like a deer getting away .
708's most often come in handier guns . But in the end nothing beats cubic inches when going for power so if its heavy bullets and speed you want/need the 7mm mag. wins .
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Offline blacknwhite

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2008, 05:45:49 AM »
Good comments. As for the question of "why 120 grain bullets". I have only loaded 120's in my 7-08 so far so I wanted to look at something I had some experience with. As for my source of data. I have also noticed that many manuals/sources of load data have large variations from one another. That's why I always like to hear REAL LIFE comparisons from other members. Anyway, I am really liking the new 7-08 barrel and I will let you guys know how it knocks the deer down for me.

Offline yooper77

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2008, 06:36:44 AM »
Nosler made a 120 grain flat nose bullet for the 7-30 Waters, but thats a lot slower velocity.
 
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2008, 07:37:19 AM »
2800 fps for the 7X30 Waters , reloads can get a tad more but why ? I have yet to recover one from a deer . I may be alone with this thought but after hunting deer for the last 42 years , maybe you can have to much power , to fast a bullet or to heavy a bullet . or maybe some of all three .
If your bullet goes thru. and creates a blood trail if its not a bang flop how much more do you need ? Could a bullet be so fast it dosen't work as well on deer , to heavy it does not work well on deer ? etc.
the first deer i shot with a rifle was shot with a 180 gr bullet from a 30-06 , it ran 100 yards , the bullet passed thru with little apperant damage . I dropped back to 125 gr bullets and got better kills . the 708 seems like a good gun for deer i have taken a few with one and it worked great .
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Offline yooper77

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2008, 08:35:45 AM »
I have in the past loaded some 135 grain (Lyman #287346) lead gas checks bullets cast from wheel weights and kept velocities below 2000 FPS in my 7x57 with H-4895 and has given me good mushrooming and sometimes give complete pass through out to 200 yards on deer which is my farthest shot with this load.

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Offline jro45

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2008, 01:14:00 PM »
The 7mm Rem Mag is faster then the 7mm-08. It will kill game farer away and droping  much less then  the 7mm-08.

Offline dpe.ahoy

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2008, 04:00:05 PM »
It's up to you to choose the one you want.  Once you get out there a ways, things slow down, and the faster they start, the faster they slow, to a point.  Has to do with several factors such as breaking the sound barrier, Air resistance, ect. At 200+ yards, the difference is less than it was at the muzzle.  DP
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2008, 05:31:56 PM »
Mine is a 7mm Rem Mag but its been killing stuff since 1982 with bullets pushed to -08 velocities or maybe a hair faster.  Of course it can go faster if desired and many of my loads do that, too.
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Offline trkyman1

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2008, 12:57:46 AM »
I have said this once before. Load a speer 130gr bullet between 2800- 2900 fps {which I easily get in a 22" barrel}  in that 7mm08 and shoot some deer with it. I don't care what the books say I go by experience. You will suck the life out of ANY deer with that combination. The 140gr is a good all around weight but the 130 speer is awsome.

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2008, 05:49:24 PM »
One thing you can't do with the -08 is push 120g TTSX to 3500fps.  Its like my .22-250 on steroids...
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2008, 05:14:32 AM »
One thing you can't do with the -08 is push 120g TTSX to 3500fps.  Its like my .22-250 on steroids...

That would be very interesting for Mule Deer & Antelope. Have you worked up that load as yet?
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2008, 06:19:38 PM »
One thing you can't do with the -08 is push 120g TTSX to 3500fps.  Its like my .22-250 on steroids...

That would be very interesting for Mule Deer & Antelope. Have you worked up that load as yet?

Not exactly.  I loaded ten rounds, one each at .5g incrments of powder.  Broke 3550fps but will back off to 3500fps.  Accuracy was very good - it appears to be one of those loads with a big sweet spot in terms of powder charge where a grain either way doesn't make that much difference in terms of POI.  If I get the time to build some more I'll probably shoot for groups this coming weekend.

Took an antelope with a 168g TTSX from my .308 Win about 3 weeks ago.  That shot convinced me that the TTSX bullets open very fast.  I'll be using the 168g versions for elk in the Remington and Savage .30-06's come month end.
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Offline cleveland48

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2008, 03:51:10 PM »
I don't think the speed really means as much as most people think it does.  I had a 7mm Rem Mag. with 24 in. barrel I believe don't remember for sure.  It was a ruger m77 mk2.  And I bought my fiance a handi rifle in 7mm o8.  My brother also had an encore 7 mag with 28 in barrel.  My brother and I combined killed 4 deer that year with our 7 mags. And none of them dropped, all of them made it at least 100 yards most of the time more( 3 shots were double lungs, 4th was front shoulder quartering toward bullet dug out under skin on opposite hind leg.)  My fiance shot 3 deer herself with the 7mm o8, all of us were using the same soft point bullet.  All dropped in their tracks,except one made about 20 steps.  One was shot just like the one I shot with the 7 mag(front shoulder quartering toward) except her 7mm o8 completly exited through the hind leg.  I'm not for sure but I read a magazine one time where they used the same bullets and the same caliber, and they maxed one out and the other one they slowed down a good bit.  Well the slower one out penetrated the faster one every time in wet magazines I believe.  Not for sure if this would help or not both of them are great rounds.  You wouldn't go wrong with either one of them.  Probably cheaper to reload the 7mm 08.

Offline Drilling Man

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2008, 03:41:16 AM »
Quote
I'm not for sure but I read a magazine one time where they used the same bullets and the same caliber, and they maxed one out and the other one they slowed down a good bit.  Well the slower one out penetrated the faster one every time in wet magazines I believe.

  This is true enough and shows why you should taylor the bullet to the velocity it's going to be used at.  Speed kills!  You just have to make sure you are using the "right" bullet for the job your trying to do.

  On bigger animals, a 7 mag. needs tougher bullets of the same weight, than the 7mm-08 does...

  DM

Offline Doe Dumper

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Re: 7mm-08 Vs. 7mm Rem Mag
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2008, 03:58:05 PM »
I have both but the 7 Mag doesnt get out of the cabinet much. Too much shock and awe at the aft end of the stock.. ;D