Author Topic: FA M97 vs Ruger Bisley SS in 45 Colt... (Read 2906 times)

Lee Robinson · « **on:** September 29, 2008, 12:51:15 PM »

I am not finished yet comparing the two...(but are we ever?)

Here is what I have found so far. Shots were taken at 25 yards.

In the Ruger photos, you may notice the fps was changed in my photo editing program because I wrote the "reported" fps...which I shouldn't have done because the reports were done in longer barrels. My corrected FPS is what I got with my chronograph with the FA. I suspect the Ruger would be slightly slower than the FA given the tighter tollerances and the fact that the FA is only a 5 shot, but I haven't confirmed that yet. I still need to shoot the Ruger Bisley through the chrono. I am going to have some work done on the Ruger...(and I will test them again after that is done...which may improve the ruger's performance anyway since I suspect the barrel will be set back slightly and have the gap reduced between the cylinder and barrel in order to reduce the forcing cone...but I am not a gunsmith...as he will do what he thinks is best).

Ruger Bisley SS 45 Colt with 260 Gr Speer JHP over 20 gr of H110 at 1000 fps (this load is published in the Speer manual, but I think there is considerable room for improvement in speed according to Linebaugh's reported load that has considerably more powder for "Ruger" firearms).

Ruger Bisley SS 45 Colt with 250 Gr Hornady XTP with 25.5 gr of H110. (This load is SLIGHTLY under published load by Hodgdon's manual...which reports 25.7 gr). I haven't chronoed this load out of the Ruger yet. But it is certainly faster than the 20 gr load with the Speer bullet, ~200 fps faster, which would explain why it grouped low (as it shot 1260 fps out of the FA). Of course, I could adjust with the sights to bring it up, but I didn't...as I was only concerned about the tightness of the grouping.

FA Model 97 with the 250 gr. Hornady XTP with 25.5 gr of H110 at 1260 fps. I shot 6 rounds even though the FA is a 5 shot cylinder in order to compare the "group" with the Ruger.

More on the 260 gr Speer and also the 270 grain Keith lead bullets later...after some more testing.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #1 on:** September 29, 2008, 03:25:56 PM »

looks like youve got two goods shooting single actions there!

EdK · « **Reply #2 on:** September 29, 2008, 03:42:57 PM »

Interesting post. I thought I'd give you my thoughts on any possible custom work on the Ruger. As you know good quality custom work does not come cheap. Before you go forward consider this:

1. A Ruger SA revolver represents a fair value out of the box. If you can be satisfied with one in that state I'd say shoot it as is for the rest of your life.

2. I also had an Accusport Bisley in 45 Colt. As much as I liked it I wanted it to be more. I envisioned custom grips, action job, base pin, all of which would improve it some and doesn't cost too much (if you can stop there). Nothing wrong with a little customizing up to this point but I soon learned once you get into setting back barrels (as you've mentioned) and getting into any additional "real" machine work, look at your total outlay of revolver + custom work. You can get to $1000 total real fast.

3. Due the not always easily understandable laws of supply and demand, some FA model 83 revolvers can be had cheap. To a degree this is true with the 357s, no so much so with 44 mags and definitely not with 475s on up. BUT, for some reason a 454 can be found "dirt cheap". My dirt cheap was a "used" but still unfired premier grade in 454 with 6" barrel - pretty much the spitting image of the Ruger Bisley - for about half off sticker price. No modest amount of customizing would ever make my Ruger into a FA model 83. I mention this because I see you are already a FA owner. Something to think about...

Lastly, I do not seek to disparage those beautiful custom creations by the likes of Bowen and Linebaugh based on Rugers. Let's be honest though: those run 2x or 3x the figure we're talking here

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #3 on:** September 29, 2008, 04:56:55 PM »

It's going to John Linebaugh for the "tune up." What I am having done won't be as pricy as the real "Linebaugh" hot rods because I won't be getting a new cylinder or a new barrel...but more of just a basic "tune up." I am sticking to the 45 size caliber...and I have already made arrangements for this Ruger Bisley stainless and also a Ruger Bisley Vaquero (which he already has) to have a trigger job, install a larger base pin, free wheel the cylinder, cylinder throats checked and resized if they should be, grip slightly reshaped (I believe they will be finished more like the older bisley grips), and possibly the barrel set back a turn or two if he thinks it will the improve accuracy and performance of these guns. Again, I am not a gunsmith...and I don't pretend to be. I trust Linebaugh to make any appropriate decisions for me. I wouldn't say that about just anyone. Still though, I imagine I could have gotten into a used 454 Model 83 with that amount of money, but as crazy as it may seem...I operate on the KISS (keep it simple stupid) philosophy and don't like to complicate my practices anymore than necessary, which I often do while "figuring out stuff" but then once I make a decision I try to stick to it to keep my life as simple as possible. With all the other things in life, I don't like reinventing the wheel anymore than necessary...so I will find 2 loads that work (1 hunting and 1 plinking) and then stick to them. Hopefully, I can find loads that work well in both the FA and the Rugers. So...for me to get a model 83, I would want the 45 cylinder...as I already reload the 45 (actually I have two sets of dies for the 45 colt...1 for the longer OAL length bullets and 1 for the shorter OAL bullets) and really have little interest in going beyond what the hotter 45 loads can do. That being the case, buying a M83 with both the 45 and the 454 cylinder would be pricy...as you can't get it with just the 45 cylinder. On the used market though I might could find one at a reasonable price, but it will be a while before I buy any more guns...as I was a little "trigger happy" purchasing the two Ruger guns just recently. I bought the FA about 2 years ago.

Currently, the trigger on the Ruger Bisley has a little creep and the cylinder has a little play in it, not bad...but no where near the lock up that my FA has...which has no play in it at all regardless of the trigger/hammer positions. After the stainless Ruger Bisley and Ruger Vaquero Bisley are worked on...if they shoot well after the work I imagine they will stay with me...and eventually be passed on to my son. In fact, the FA has our family's last name "Robinson" ingraved on the backstrap....as we purchased it when my son (Conner) was born to be passed onto him when he becomes of age.

Tomorrow I will try both guns with the 250 gr Hornady XTP over 26 grains of H110 as listed in the Hodgden's manual. I loaded them up tonight. Even though max load is listed at 26.5 grs of H110 with this bullet, I plan on stopping at 26 grains...as I see no need to go over 1300 fps for whitetails (I suspect the 26 grains will give me close to that, but if it doesn't that is fine too).

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** September 29, 2008, 11:28:44 PM »

To me the FA guns are no different then a ruger in that reguard. I picked up two fA 454s one for 800 bucks and one for 750 within the last year but neither were what really wanted. both had 7.5 inch barrels which i dont care for. One was a field grade that i had FA cut down to 4 5/8s and install a premeir rear sight on. The newest one will be cut to 5.5. the first one even needed trigger work. Now the average gun would have been happy with it but im a little fussier then most when it comes to triggers. i like all my guns at about 2 lbs with NO creap. the first one was about 4 lbs and had a tad bit of creap. the second has about a 3 lb trigger with no creap and ill probably not bother improving that one. Point is that yes you can buy a used FA cheap, especially a 454 for some reason. Probably because they made more 454s then the rest combined. But whey you do get a deal your getting a gun that was built to someone elses tastes not your own. Used fA guns are really only a true bargin if you can cheaply find one that is EXACTLY what you would have ordered anyway. I guess thinking on it though, I will have less then 1200 bucks into them even after i get them worked on and thats still a hell of a deal on a gun as well built and accurate as the FA guns are.

EdK · « **Reply #5 on:** September 30, 2008, 01:03:30 AM »

Well, you two guys do have your heads on right

Just thought I'd contrast the possibilities in "cheap" FA 454s out there to custom work for someone who might be unaware.

By the way, my find was Premier, micarta grips, 6" barrel and unfired - really a near copy of my 5.5" Accusport 45 - not a compromise or needing further work to make it into what I need.

Lastly, I do also spend coin on custom work after I've really thought it through.

Autorim · « **Reply #6 on:** September 30, 2008, 04:34:27 PM »

Lee,

Nice handguns and good shooting - wish I could still shoot that well with iron sights. I doubt if I can shoot that good with my red dots. My 45 Colt Bisley is now with Alan Harton for trigger and new patridge front sight. I am going to try the Hornady 250 XTP when I have it back in my hands. I also have some Cast Performance 265 WFNGC bullets.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #7 on:** October 01, 2008, 01:42:48 PM »

Thanks for the complements on my shooting, but honestly...I want to improve it still. Some improvement I am sure I am responsible for. SOME may also be the guns and/or loads. I will have to sand bag them and see just how tight I can get on a sandbag to really know what is going on.

I still haven't had the oppertunity to shoot those 26 grain loads out of the freedom arms, but I did get to shoot them out of the Ruger. It did well IMO at 1 & 1/2" center to center spread in 6 shots at 25 yards resting the butt of the gun on a box like prop, but I didn't use a sandbag. With proper rest on a sandbag, that load may really shine out of the Ruger...and I wouldn't be surprised if it shot all 6 with touching holes. We will see. I will do try this over the weekend and get the gun out to Linebaugh next week. In low light though, I just can't see the sights on the stainless FA well enough to do a "group" shot. Black face on the sights clearly produce a better sight picture.

Any suggestions on how to blacken the SS fixed sights on the FA? I have used permanent marker some...and it works some...but it will rub off easily.

Autorim · « **Reply #8 on:** October 01, 2008, 03:20:01 PM »

I usually spray all of my sights with Birchwood Casey Sight Black. It rubs off easily, but it also cleans up easily and is simple to touch up while shooting. It is matte black - markers tend to be glossy IME.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #9 on:** October 01, 2008, 06:25:01 PM »

Do you know of anything more permanent that will allow the gun to be holstered without rubbing off?

jk3006 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 03, 2008, 03:35:11 AM »

I shoot the 325 gr wfn out of my 4 5/8 blackhawk using John's "heavy load", and I get right at or slightly over 1200 fps.

Quote from: Lee Robinson on September 29, 2008, 12:51:15 PM

Ruger Bisley SS 45 Colt with 260 Gr Speer JHP over 20 gr of H110 at 1000 fps (this load is published in the Speer manual, but I think there is considerable room for improvement in speed according to Linebaugh's reported load that has considerably more powder for "Ruger" firearms).

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #11 on:** October 04, 2008, 12:44:49 AM »

flat black paint

Quote from: Lee Robinson on October 01, 2008, 06:25:01 PM

Do you know of anything more permanent that will allow the gun to be holstered without rubbing off?

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #12 on:** October 05, 2008, 01:59:19 PM »

Blacking the sight helped the Speer bullet load. I got a nice group out of it with the FA finally.

I still haven't found what I would consider the right load out with the XTP though with the FA...as it isn't shooting bad...but it isn't shooting as well as a considerably cheaper new out of the box no trigger job Ruger is either...so I am going to play more with some other powders and the XTP bullets for the FA gun.

The Ruger seems to like everything. I shot some lead 270 gr keith bullets tonight (I will upload the photo later) with 24 gr of H110 and had 5 shots out of 6 making 1 hole

with the 1st shot was only an inch away from the group. Velocity was around 1240-1260 fps.

I will be trying 2400 and also 4227 powders next with the XTP bullets.

454Puma · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2008, 04:25:24 PM »

Lee Robinson
My question would be why mess with that Ruger-it's shooting just fine! Doesn't it kind of make you wonder why anyone would spend $1500 on a FA when you can get a Ruger for $450 that will shoot that good!!

All my Ruger's are bone stock no trigger work, no cylinder jobs, throats untouched and they shoot just fine!

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #14 on:** October 05, 2008, 05:37:26 PM »

I bought a Bisley Vaquero for about 450, but the SS Bisley 45 Colt (convertable with 45 ACP) cost me a lot more than that. I found it new and for sell on gunbroker.com...and being I don't think they will go in production again...I bid on it. I put in my "max bid" and ended up paying probably more than it is really worth (winning the bid at 740), but I wanted it, and it came with an extra cylinder, and so I paid for it. For some reason, those 45 Bisley SS model convertables sold for considerably higher than the 357 stainless Bisleys.

As far as the modifications...Well, I definately agree with the philosophy that "if it ain't broke don't fix it;" however, the trigger isn't an issue when you are holding on a rest, but when "free hand shooting" having a trigger job IMO could help maintain our best abilities to get what we can from the gun.

Freewheelling the cylinder also shouldn't affect accuracy either, but it will allow me to rotate the cylinder in either direction for dropping those cartriges in and out a little easier. It is annoying (not a big issue, but annoying) that the Ruger chambers don't line up with the loading gate if you "click" it to position. That doesn't make sense to me, but so be it.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #15 on:** October 06, 2008, 01:33:50 AM »

Alot of it is pride of ownership. I guess its the same reason why a guy goes and buys a pickup that is loaded with options instead of a stipped down one. Or a Harley instead of a 600 honda. both will get you down the road but which would you rather be seen with?

Quote from: 454Puma on October 05, 2008, 04:25:24 PM

Lee Robinson
My question would be why mess with that Ruger-it's shooting just fine! Doesn't it kind of make you wonder why anyone would spend $1500 on a FA when you can get a Ruger for $450 that will shoot that good!! All my Ruger's are bone stock no trigger work, no cylinder jobs, throats untouched and they shoot just fine!

454Puma · « **Reply #16 on:** October 06, 2008, 08:36:38 AM »

Well I guess I'm not that picky!

I just shoot mine and the triggers have all gotten nice and smooth! Accuracy has also improved by shooting them. Mainly by reloading and finding "that" load that works the best!
As you have found with the loads you shot for your test.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #17 on:** March 18, 2009, 05:04:14 PM »

Well, after much hesitation, I sold the Freedom Arms. The fact is both my Ruger 45 Colts out shoot the FA by far. I sent the Rugers to John Linebaugh for some custom work...got them back...and at 30 yards the holes are touching and right on target...both my adjustable sighted Ruger and my fixed sighted Ruger. In fact, my first shot from the fixed sighted Ruger hit dead center of the black. I thought I missed the target because I didn't see the hole at first. The back on my home made "bulls eye" target was only about 3/4" black dot and the bullet was entirely in the black, right at the center, and I couldn't see the hole until I walked up to the target thinking, I know I didn't miss the entire target. Then after seeing the hole and smiling (pleased), I stepped back and proceded to remove the bulls eye with shots taking out the black in about 6 shots or so. Gotta love that 45 caliber hole punch when it goes where you want it. I couldn't be happier with the Rugers. I just wish the FA would have done as well. It was decent. I found one "good" load, but it was an "underloaded" H110 load with a speer bullet, but H110 isn't a good powder to go light given it needs a certain amount to be reliable, and I never did really get reliable performance from any other bullet or any other load.

The Rugers seem to like everything I have tried. Looks like I will have to have my name engraved on one of these Rugers to pass onto my son some day given that was my intent with the FA. Oh well.

I just thought I would post an update.

Tried some of these loads in my Marlin, and I saw some potential. (EDITED UPDATE...sold the Marlin and now have a Winchester).

In the end, I gotta agree with 454 Puma. For $1700 or so for a premier 45 model 97, I expected more than I got. At first, I was pleased, but over time the FA just wasn't consistent for me.

Sweetwater · « **Reply #18 on:** March 18, 2009, 07:45:42 PM »

Thoroughly enjoyed your report and this thread of responses! Good show!

Would a Model 83 given better results than the Model 97? Just a question.

Does your 45 Marlin enjoy the same loads as your Rugers?
My 41 Marlin will digest anything I feed my Rugers and send them all in the same circle. I change loads, and the group doesn't seem to increase. Gotta love that!

Again, thanks - these reports take some real time and effort and expense.

Regards,
Sweetwater

Sverre A. · « **Reply #19 on:** March 18, 2009, 11:35:39 PM »

My Winchester and Bisley - are both very accurate

with Lyman 325 gr/H110-21 gr. - and are real "sluggers" on deers.

DanChamberlain · « **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2009, 02:10:24 AM »

I don't like carrying sight black when I'm hunting. So I solved it a different way.

I also contoured the butt on the Bisley Vaquero a bit to round it a little. I like the way it feels.

Dan

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2009, 01:48:00 PM »

lee i had the oposite luck with 45 accusports. Ive had two and neither was exceptional. Now my 44 accusport is a differnt animal. It is probably the most accurate out of the box ruger ive ever owned.

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2009, 03:20:45 PM »

Maybe I was lucky with my Rugers. Only one of them is an accusport bisley stainless gun though. The other is a blue vaquero bisley. Both shoot great. Linebaugh told me that the blue vaqueros have been some of the best guns shooting he has used. Of course, he uses a lot of Rugers so he is essentially comparing the vaquero the the blackhawks for the most part.

However, my only regret is I wish I would have had better luck with the FA. A lot of money went into that gun. Fortunately for me, I didn't take much of a loss on it...as I traded it for some new stuff that added up would have cost me $1500 by the time I paid the taxes should I have bought it. So, in the end, it was about $200 education plus waisted ammo...and I can live with that.

mray · « **Reply #23 on:** March 20, 2009, 10:50:38 AM »

Someone above commented on why anyone would want to own a Freedom Arms. I just got one a few months ago, and I can tell you, I don't know what it is, it's just amazing. I think it has to do with the craftsmanship in general. It's my favorite gun, and I own quite a few. It's almost art. I can't explain it. But it's not something you have to baby either, like my Kimber Super America or my Sako Deluxe, or even my python. Something about it it just makes we want to dry fire it. (with snap caps, of course... :+)

I think I might need a shrink or something...

Lee Robinson · « **Reply #24 on:** March 20, 2009, 04:03:05 PM »

The fit, finish, and lock up on the FA is awesome. No one can doubt that. Even with my gun, that didn't work out for me, it was very hard to get rid of because it was definately impressive. If I am going to keep one though, it must shoot great for ME too...and that is what MY gun was missing.